Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: JakeAC5253 on April 07, 2010, 06:39:45 AM
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HI! I am eager to get into the world of BKP, but I am having trouble deciding. I play stuff all the way from Thrash like Slayer to Death metal like Morbid Angel or Cannibal Corpse all the way up to more progressive styles like Nevermore, Mastodon, or Meshuggah/Periphery. I do tend to lean more toward the progressive and modern end of things.
The guitar that I am looking to upgrade is a Fender strat with a Poplar body that has a pretty bright personality, so I am thinking maybe something darker? Then again I use lots of deep downtunings so too dark would be bad as my riffs would turn to mud. I need only a Bridge pickup.
Everyone suggests the Painkiller as the pickup to get, but I know that Bulb of Periphery uses the Cold Sweat pickups and I love his tone as it seems to be very clear and articulate on the gain, but also good cleans. I've also read on this forum that the Painkiller is a brighter pickup, which probably won't go with my guitar very well. My rig is going to consist of amps like a Peavey 6505, Dual Rectifier, or ENGL Savage through my Mesa Rectifier cab. (I don't actually have any of those heads yet haha, still haven't decided, just thought I'd let you know).
So what will give me a thick tone and good touch sensitivity with enough clarity for complex rhythms and downtuned guitars without being too bright? lol
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I'd go extreme
c-pig
but I think a miracle man might work
not sure of how it would sound on poplar
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I'd go with PK over CS for that guitar. I have a PK in a very bright guitar (Jackson KV2) & also one with a poplar body (Charvel 5 - OK, it's actually just poplar body wings with a maple thru-neck/centreblock). IMHO it will do what you want better than a CS.
FWIW, I have an Engl Savage head & would avoid any cab with Vintage 30s - you'll struggle to tame the top end regardless of how bright your guitar is. Best match for a Mesa Rectifier cab is probably a Mesa Rectifier :)
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none of the above...
i'd go straight for a pig, better if ceramic!
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Thanks for the replies!
Eric, did you mean to say w-pig? lol
Antag, thanks for the Painkiller advice. About your amp advice, I was under the impression that the Savage and other ENGL amps were darker in tonality? Are you saying that the amp is bright and that this is accented by the high mids of the V30s?
dheim, isn't the Warpig of the more colored sounding BKP pickups?
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You sound like you've been getting advice from HCAF? You'd think that the PK was the only bare knuckle and all engls were darker than satans arsehole if you listen to the Opinion of the Month over there.
With the amount of gain on tap on those amps, and their general voicing, youre never going to want for more metalness even with a medium output pickup, so going by voicing youre after both bright and crunchy sounds and thick and dark sounds, some razor-blade tones, some warmer and fatter tones and the best voiced pickup to hit the middle ground on those is probably the Nailbomb, and get the engl for the versatility (they can be made to sound dark and thick, and bright and open if you know how to dial them in).
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And no, Eric I'm certain meant to say C-Pig
Ceramic Warpig
A warpig with a ceramic magnet.
Its the pinnacle of auditory devastation in pickup form. I used to use them, but backed off to less insane winds to get more clarity, transients and definition back.
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I have no idea what HCAF is. I post on Guitar World, Rig-Talk, Sevenstring, and a handful of home and professional recording forums. If Harmony Central is what you are referring to then I registered there a while ago, posted about four times total and stopped visiting completely because it's the most ignorant, ass backwards place on the internet.
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Also, you make a good case about the Savage, very convincing. What do you think about the Peavey 6505 (not the + model) I was thinking about getting that simply for monetary reasons. Money is a bit tight over here and it's still quite a bit more amp then what I've got now. Whatever I buy will be my first all tube amp. What do you think?
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HCAF Is harmony central amps forum, the most ignorant, ass backward place on harmony central
Anyway, the 5150 is a decent metal amp, but its got a distortion that sounds like a 5150 24/7 (later machine head, arch enemy, every other death metal band) and some of my favourite recorded tones are on them, but when compared to any engl, let alone the savage, they arent nearly as versatile, especially in their cleans and crunch sounds and also in that engls have more variable controls and take an EQ pedal very well to be able to get open, brighter tones and darker, thicker tones - my powerball can get *something like* each of those sounds properly dialed in, but it wont nail any of them - it still sounds mostly like a powerball.
A 5150 might sound great to you, but its never going to reasonably emulate a slayer tone (save maybe diabolous in musica, divine intervantion and maybe god hates us all; the darker, smoother sounds), or mastodons fat, bright crunch or deaths razor-edged tone. It wont do a half bad job of nevermore (I think some NM is actually recorded on 5150, iirc) and CC.
No one amp is going to sound like a rectifier (cannibal corpse), krank (nevermore), JCM800 (slayer) laney VH100 and I forget what marshalls (mastodon) or VS100s (I think, but I've seen doubt cast on that - death). A savage, powerball, invader, or if youre feeling rich a Diezel will get you closest to getting in the ball park of all of them, but wont nail the lot.
Most important thing on the amp is try out a bunch of them and get the one that fits whatever summation/interpretation of all these other sounds = your style and go with that. This is doubly important if its your first valve amp - I dont believe that that purchase should be made without EXTENSIVE play testing (because I didnt and went through a few before getting my PB, which I'm mostly happy with, but still hunting for the imaginary sound in my head).
Try to get it second hand too, since your first amp is unlikely to be your last and you dont want to be at a loss when you sell it on, which theres a higher chance of with your first than any other!
JMO.
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Awesome, a friend of mine has a Savage that he's going to let go of second hand. I might pick that up.
So again, why does no one like the Cold Sweat bridge humbucker? I'm not being thickheaded, no one's really made much of a case against it though.
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I dont think many people do not not like it. Its a well-liked pickup
I cant speak for the others, but I didnt support the choice and went with nailbomb because the CS is a bright, open pickup and you want some dark, thick sounds. Its not that it outright cant do that, it can be made to with the right amp and settings, but I thought a more middle ground voicing would be better for you.
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Oh, fwiw, the CS is apparently an underwound ceramic magnet cold sweat - from comparison with my favourite pickup (today at least!), the ceramic nailbomb, its the same family sound; the cs is brighter, more open, less compressed but it has a similar character, just sort of shifted up the spectrum a bit.
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I don't know if it is unholy to mention Seymour Duncan here, but I have a Duncan Invader in the guitar right now and it's probably my favorite pickup that I've owned and I've owned a few different ones from a number of different brands. Where does that stand in the sound spectrum? Similar to any BKP models? I like how full up on the volume knob it is compressed and hot sounding and when you roll back on the knob it warms up and gives a great clean tone. The note separation is what gets me with this pickup.
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I'd recommend the c-pig as well, especially after what you said about the Invader. I'd wager the Cold Sweat would be overly bright in your guitar.
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Awesome, I'll look into the Warpig then, seems to be the general consensus.
THREADJACK!
I just had an awesome idea. Get a baritone scale 6 string... Mahogany arch top body, maple neck and it's 27" scale, so it'll have a deeper tonality. I've been chasing a baritone scale 7 for a while, but I think a 6 is a better idea for me personally. This just seems like much more guitar than what I've got going on now and I am thinking I will save my money and put some BKP's in that instead. Seems much more worthy of the investment.
http://www.rondomusic.com/product2857.html
What do you think? What's a good set for that guitar? (I haven't given up on your older advice, and thanks for hanging in there everyone, the advice is greatly appreciated)
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The recommendations dont change that much unless youre going over 27" and then its wise to have a lower output pickup to stop it, as tim says "sounding like a bass through a cheap distortion pedal".
Thats a $%&#ing sweet looking guitar, btw, in spec and asthetics. I havent felt guitar gas in about a year now....
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I know isn't it! This site has a lot of really nice guitars, 6, 7, and 8 strings of basically all body styles to choose from and they are all cheap, I love it. I thought that maybe since the tonewood and construction of the body has changed (from bright and spanky Poplar with body cavities to solid Mahogany) that it might affect pickup choice.
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No no no
Maple through neck
Now, lets assume its a good piece of maple. Its gonna have a prominent top end, but maple has an understated but superbly tight low end and chimey mid too, and its very stiff wood, it transmits all frequencies pretty well, and through necks all things being equal allow more low modes in the sound (or them to be stronger, rather), add to that the fact that you'll likely be forced to use thinner strings which will have more high modes and you probably have a guitar thats gonna have a deep but not prominent low end and lots of attack and definition.
The wings are mahogany. Wings on a through neck have a slight effect. Theres a common wisdom, which is really just a widespread assumption based on the fact that the most wood is in there, that the body wood has a dominant effect on tone - no. What matters most is whats in the course of the vibration of the strings, i.e. whats right under the strings, wood wise and structurally. The rest just adds some colour, and in a bolt on or set neck the most important thing is usually the neck - thats what has the single biggest effect, through resonant feedback, on how the strings vibrate, and so what the pickups hear. A set neck or bolt on that is very well made will behave similarly to a though, but most of the time theres a degree of decoupling between the neck and body (in a bolt on) or a degree of dampening from glue. In a through neck the neck dominates, and this neck is maple, but on the other hand, its a through neck, so theres no decoupling or dampening between the neck and body so youre going to hear stronger low modes that you normally would in a bolt on maple neck, for example.
Que the boards luthiers (save one, I'm certain, whom I learned this from (mostly, the rest being my own experimentation and physicsy sense)) disagreeing with me :lol:
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It's really a nice guitar, but I hate maple fingerboards...
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It's really a nice guitar, but I hate maple fingerboards...
Is it because they have that finish on them?
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All i can say is that i used to love the invader too, but in my case, it had a bit of a dead mid spectrum.
My C-Pig is my fav pickup. I use 40% less gain on my amp when i use it compared to when i use emg equipped guitars.
It has the most amazing grind you'll ever find. It has all the clarity needed, it just packed with a LOT of punch.
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I have a fanned fret 26.5-28" (treble - bass respectively) 6-string baritone with 14-68 (soon to be up to about 70 from newtone) strings.
See This Thread (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17032.msg226623#msg226623) for details.
In that, I have a black dog (lower output pickup), and what comes out sounds like this:
www.myspace.com/13gauge
Hope this helps :)
Roo
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You know, I'm looking at the Warpig Stats and I don't think I've ever seen an output that high. 22k, why do you even need a gain knob? That's absolutely insane dudes. And the Ceramic's stats are identical? Because the stats page makes it seem like it only comes with Alnico 5. What value pots should you run a Warpig with? 500k, 1M, or 2M?
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Well, DC resistance alone doesn't give you the full picture of a pickup's output. The 'pigs are certainly very hot, but I think you will be shocked at just how clear and defined they are. The ceramic version is not an official model but it is a very common customisation; just write that you want a ceramic magnet in the note box when you're ordering. I think the ceramic magnet version will have a very slightly lower DC resistance, but will be noticeably hotter.
As for pots, 500k should be fine. Tim has some excellent 550K CTS pots in as well as a stock of NOS Russian military caps.. Might be worth grabbing when you order the pickup if you need them.
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Well, DC resistance alone doesn't give you the full picture of a pickup's output.
Resistance tells you nothing about tone, but sheer output yes. The resistance is directly proportional (think equal and opposite forces) to the actual voltage that the pickup puts out. I understand that they're not mirror values, but inversely related as resistance is a matter of kOhms and actual output is a matter of millivolts most of the time. Where the pickup resonates is also a good stat to look at. At least that's my understanding. If you have a deeper understanding I'd love to learn more.
Clarity is good! I like clarity. I really hate when I dig into a guitar and all I hear is mud. It's almost as annoying as when you dig into a guitar and feel no power from it. I think that MDV put it perfectly when he said "deep low end that isn't prominent or overpowering" I just want the sound to be powerful without sounding hyped at all. I'm getting pretty excited about this. Too bad it'll have to wait until next year :\
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Awesome, a friend of mine has a Savage that he's going to let go of second hand. I might pick that up.
So again, why does no one like the Cold Sweat bridge humbucker? I'm not being thickheaded, no one's really made much of a case against it though.
There's a lot of love for the CS here ;) I own one, but wouldn't put it in the guitar that was on the starter post. It's a bright pickup and usually at it's best in warm sounding guitars. Like on the guitar I have it (PRS McCarty).
About the DC resistance..there's more to the output than just that. The magnet and the wire used have an effect. But I'll shut up about this as I have no expertise on that subject.
BUT, I do own an ENGL Blackmore (based on the ENGL Savage), and I use it with Celestion Vintage 30's (ENGL's own cab). I love it, so don't rule the V30's out. There are cabs and then there are other cabs; they have different frequency responses and sound different. I've tried my ENGL briefly with a MESA rectifier cabinet too (V30's), and it also sounded good, although different.
-Zaned
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in my experience, the alnico warpig isn't that high output
the high dc seems to affect a lot the midrange compression, but not really the output
the nailbomb is 16k and it's just as high output, although it's a lot less compressed
the holy diver is 16k, more middy and full than the nailbomb, but no near as hot
most BKPs in general aren't as high output as other brands "equivalent" models
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The high DC resistance value on the Warpig is due to the gauge of wire it's wound with. The contemporary line of BKP's use one of three different wire gauges to my knowledge, thin, thinner and much thinner :D - the Warpig happens to be in the much thinner category (along with the Miracle Man). The DC resistance of a pickup can be high due to a number of factors, most notably the amount of turns and the thickness of the wire. Thinner wire will produce a higher dc resistance per turn of wire than a thicker equivalent. That's why the Nailbomb and the Holy Diver both have the same ballpark resistance, but the Nailbomb is actually wound hotter - it uses a thicker gauge of wire. It also influences the tone of course, thinner wire usually having a more compressed, middier tone.
Having got that out of the way, as a recovering Invader user and current C- Pig abuser myself, you'd be very happy with a C-Pig in your guitar in my opinion, it fits a similar tonal niche, but in a much superior form. The bottom end is tighter, it has far more clarity, the harmonics aren't confused/odd sounding and your polepieces aren't liable to fall out (true story).
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in my experience, the alnico warpig isn't that high output
it seems pretty hot to my ears! ;)
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BUT, I do own an ENGL Blackmore (based on the ENGL Savage), and I use it with Celestion Vintage 30's (ENGL's own cab). I love it, so don't rule the V30's out. There are cabs and then there are other cabs; they have different frequency responses and sound different. I've tried my ENGL briefly with a MESA rectifier cabinet too (V30's), and it also sounded good, although different.
-Zaned
That is awesome. Since the ENGL cab is front loaded and the Mesa cab is rear loaded I would assume that the ENGL cab has more widespread projection while the Mesa cab has more resonance. Also since the Mesa is oversized and heavy as hell I would assume that it had deeper and tighter bass response right? What was the actual difference like to your ears?
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Awesome, I'll look into the Warpig then, seems to be the general consensus.
THREADJACK!
I just had an awesome idea. Get a baritone scale 6 string... Mahogany arch top body, maple neck and it's 27" scale, so it'll have a deeper tonality. I've been chasing a baritone scale 7 for a while, but I think a 6 is a better idea for me personally. This just seems like much more guitar than what I've got going on now and I am thinking I will save my money and put some BKP's in that instead. Seems much more worthy of the investment.
http://www.rondomusic.com/product2857.html
What do you think? What's a good set for that guitar? (I haven't given up on your older advice, and thanks for hanging in there everyone, the advice is greatly appreciated)
I have such a guitar (27" scale, mahogany body, maple neck, rosewood fingerboard, an LTD baritone). I use a Holy Diver there in the bridge. I'm happy with it, but the original guitar had a Seymour JB which isnt that different.
I heard the Black Dog works great in Baritones as well, i heard some samples from a board member here which I liked. But I bought my baritone mainly because I loved Mike Amott's tone and wanted a similar tone, so I'm sticking with the Holy Diver.
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Awesome, I'll look into the Warpig then, seems to be the general consensus.
THREADJACK!
I just had an awesome idea. Get a baritone scale 6 string... Mahogany arch top body, maple neck and it's 27" scale, so it'll have a deeper tonality. I've been chasing a baritone scale 7 for a while, but I think a 6 is a better idea for me personally. This just seems like much more guitar than what I've got going on now and I am thinking I will save my money and put some BKP's in that instead. Seems much more worthy of the investment.
http://www.rondomusic.com/product2857.html
What do you think? What's a good set for that guitar? (I haven't given up on your older advice, and thanks for hanging in there everyone, the advice is greatly appreciated)
I have such a guitar (27" scale, mahogany body, maple neck, rosewood fingerboard, an LTD baritone). I use a Holy Diver there in the bridge. I'm happy with it, but the original guitar had a Seymour JB which isnt that different.
I heard the Black Dog works great in Baritones as well, i heard some samples from a board member here which I liked. But I bought my baritone mainly because I loved Mike Amott's tone and wanted a similar tone, so I'm sticking with the Holy Diver.
Mike Amott of Arch Enemy uses a baritone? Maybe there is one that is discontinued or one that I am missing or something. I know his newest sigs from the Dean line are 24.75". I'm curious what artists use baritone guitars other than Nevermore, I'm familiar with their baritone sound but I would like to hear some different artists doing the baritone gig. Even though Nevermore isn't true Baritone, Jeff Loomis uses a 26.5" hah, this conversation sounds so nerdy.
Anyway, what I was thinking about installation. The guitar that I linked to that I'm thinking of getting, how easy is installation going to be here? Will I need to buy any brackets or anything to install the warpigs? Short legs or long legs? I am thinking long legs because it is a carved top? Soldering and wiring is not an issue, I am experienced with all of that, just wondering about dimensions and stuff.
I'd still love to hear from Zaned about the different cabs with the ENGL Blackmore!
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BUT, I do own an ENGL Blackmore (based on the ENGL Savage), and I use it with Celestion Vintage 30's (ENGL's own cab). I love it, so don't rule the V30's out. There are cabs and then there are other cabs; they have different frequency responses and sound different. I've tried my ENGL briefly with a MESA rectifier cabinet too (V30's), and it also sounded good, although different.
-Zaned
That is awesome. Since the ENGL cab is front loaded and the Mesa cab is rear loaded I would assume that the ENGL cab has more widespread projection while the Mesa cab has more resonance. Also since the Mesa is oversized and heavy as hell I would assume that it had deeper and tighter bass response right? What was the actual difference like to your ears?
I didn't have the ENGL cab then and I only used the Mesa for one practise ;) They're both 2x12 cabs. My view is that the ENGL has a rawer sound in the midrange, and the bottom felt different. Maybe more bottom on the Mesa. Anyway, I would have to listen to them side by side, to really give some details.
-Zaned
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What if I wanted a new set for my other guitar as well. It's a Jackson RR3 V shaped guitar with Alder body and floyd rose. Would I go with matched Warpigs set as well? Is the C-Pig neck pickup any good or should I get a different neck pickup? I'm just worried that it would sound softer or weaker than the Pig in the bridge. Out of balance, you know, also I'd like it if they sounded good in the middle position when blended. I use the neck position for cleans mainly.
Thanks.
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A C-pig for that one as well :P And i dont really know about the neck pickup version. But im more after a single coil'ish neck pickup if it should be.