Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Doadman on November 09, 2010, 07:18:56 AM
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I've been looking for a new amp head and as I've always liked the sound of Marshalls but also high gain, I've been considering the Marshall JVM410 and the Blackstar HT Stage 100. However, my experience with my current amp has made me start to question the whole point of this.
I've got a Marshall DSL401 but I find the amp's own distortions to be a bit mushy (gain set at 6)so I use a Bad Monkey in front with the gain on zero and the level maxed out. This tightens it up beautifully and I like it a lot but the down side is that when I engage my MXR boost pedal for solos, it has virtually no impact at all on the volume. To get around this problem I bought a Hardwire Metal Distortion pedal to use on the clean channel. The distortion is fantastic and even at less than half boost, the MXR pedal sends the volume through the roof. I'm left wondering why I'm bothering trying to find a good amp for distortions. Why don't I just buy any amp with a good clean channel and lots of headroom and use pedals for all of my distortion? I could keep the Metal Distortion pedal, use a bit of gain on the Bad Monkey for a Bluesy crunch and buy a Hardwire Valve Distortion pedal to do everything inbetween. Wouldn't that be just as effective and probably cheaper or am I missing something?
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I can't say which is better, but I've just come at this from the opposite side of things as you have :lol:
For the last 5 years or so I've used a clean amp and have got all my OD and Distortion from pedals. Up until the last year or so (since I've not been gigging) I found this to be fine.
But since I've gone back more to my 70s and 80s Rock roots, I've found it's just not cutting it. I've also started branching out into higher output pickups (instead of the PAF style I've mainly used) and find that I just don't like the sound of a higher output pickup into a OD/Distortion pedal.
This led to me buying a new amp with really good OD channels/modes and I've found I'm now selling most of my gain pedals.
Like I said earlier, I can't say which is best for you or what you do but I've found a better amp with decent OD is working better for me at this moment in time than pedals are.
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You've hit the point where there are two routes:
Clean amp and pedals - as per Dave Gilmour
Multi channel/mode amp or multiple amps - as per Slash
Neither is right or wrong, neither is better. It's what works best for you. As you've headed down this road, why not try the full pedal approach and see if you like it?
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I allways pulled a great lead sound using 50 watt JCM800 with a good dist pedal.
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I always like to have a variety of OD's/distortions running into a "just past dirty" channel or a cleanish - to dirty boost running into a lead channel. lots of flavours to be had.
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I've got a Marshall DSL401 but I find the amp's own distortions to be a bit mushy (gain set at 6)so I use a Bad Monkey in front with the gain on zero and the level maxed out. This tightens it up beautifully and I like it a lot but the down side is that when I engage my MXR boost pedal for solos, it has virtually no impact at all on the volume.
(snip)
I'm left wondering why I'm bothering trying to find a good amp for distortions. Why don't I just buy any amp with a good clean channel and lots of headroom and use pedals for all of my distortion?
(snip)
Wouldn't that be just as effective and probably cheaper or am I missing something?
Strange enough, I currently face the same problem (using a HRDx but that's not the point). Now the point is: I find distortion pedals on a (pristine) clean channel to sound kinda "fake", and really prefer the feel I get with an overdriven input stage (eventually colored and pushed a bit further by a dirtbox) and a "about to break up" output stage.
I suppose the "best solution" would be to get me a "better" multichannel amp, but from all the 30/50 watters I could try locally (and I tried quite a fews) the HRDx was the closest (even if not quite there) to my tastes tone-wise, and I can't afford a 2 or 3 grand boutique amp anyway.
So as far as I'm concerned, the solution I'm thinking of is twofold:
1/ modding the HRDx preamp circuit to make it a bit better (known mods, some of them now builtin in the serie II hotrods) so I only use dirtboxes for adding some color and hair (instead of first "fixing" the amp's tone)
2/ adding a footswitchable "master" volume pot between the preamp and poweramp (will try in the loop at first, then eventually add it to the amp's circuit) so I can get that little extra volume (and output stage distortion) for leads.
The point is that given the preamp gain level I already use for rythm / backing parts, beating the front end harder isn't going to give me enough of a boost for the lead parts anyway.
My 2 cents...
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I have been giving some thought to my next amp, though there are things I want to do first like Bareknuckles for my Jackson. My first thought was a Marshall JVM410 as I know I can pick up a used one for £600 and they seem very versatile but their reputation is somewhat less than overwhelmingly positive. I've also thought of a Blackstar HT Stage 100 as they are also £600 but I've ended up concerned that I'd have the same problem I have with my DSL401 in that it won't boost solos very well. Any other suggestions would be welcome.
Because the Hardwire Metal Distortion pedal produces a fantastic sound going into the clean channel of my amp I started to think it might be a whole lot easier to just buy an amp head with a decent clean channel and lots of headroom and get my distortion exclusively from pedals. I daresay that when the time comes I'll go and try something like the Blackstar first but the question of whether there was any particular advantage to amp or pedal based distortions interested me so I thought I'd ask. The other question of course is that if I do decide to just use pedals for distortion, what sort of amp head should I be looking at for a £600 budget. I'm guessing at something with EL34's as those amps are generally the tone I like. I was wondering if a Marshall DSL100 would work well as Iron Maiden use them but as far as I know, they're not using the preamp stage.
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The tsl would work great for you.
Its similar in character to the DSL but has the third channel
i have my sounds as follows
clean
channel 2 (crunch) clean boosted to get me into metal territory
then channel 3 also with the boost engaged but witha higher volume setting for leads.
works an absolute treat.
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also you can pick up the head and a 4x12 for about £400-500 on ebay nowadays
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I generally prefer amp distortion. But as Dave says, I think it's very much personal preference, dependent on what works for you, and also on what type of music you play.
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I prefer amp distortion.
What I don't like is having to use FX loops for delays, as they usually degrade the tone compared to the amp without using the loop. If you use pedals into a cleanish amp, you can use any true bypass delay pedal after the dirt pedals and won't have that issue.
I think a Marshall JCM or JMP with a DS-1 or Tubescreamer is hard to beat in that sense, looking at the tones some people get like this.
But for me amp overdrive always seems to work better, it just seems more punchy, more dynamic and more "real" to me (it's also a feel thing).
I think this is mainly because I usually cannot turn my amps up enough, and the Pedal=>Marshall combination starts to sound glorious mainly when the amp is pushed beyond 5 on the master.
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I generally prefer amp distortion. But as Dave says, I think it's very much personal preference, dependent on what works for you, and also on what type of music you play.
+1
I don't go for nearly as much drive nowadays as I know some of you guys do, but I'm definitely in the "I prefer the amp doing it on it's own" camp.
Interesting that Dave (Twinfan) seems to be heading that direction at the moment himself after much time with pedals. I'm sure he's not going to suddenly ditch the pedals, but it seems a good example of it being personal preference and that your preference might change with time and with what you're trying to achieve.
When I was younger and starting to gig, I was always trying to get x, y, or z happening, wondering which bit of kit I needed to acquire to get to where I thought I wanted my sound to go. Then when loads of gigs happened I found out that half the stuff I was trying to achieve was actually in how I used the kit I already had.
This was partly by default - we didn't have the time or money to invest in getting new stuff - you have to perform with what's coming out of the speakers that night, so you get used to it and learn to make it work for you.
But it was also our sound engineer feeding me back with "why don't you learn how to use that bluddy amp properly!" Helpful bar-steward... but actually he did help, LOADS.
I'd say "but it sounds ok on stage, it's the sound I want, it's like Rory Gallagher, -ish" (this was Rory's early 80s "metal" sound). And he'd go "it might sound ok in your bedsit, but it sounds awful out front at a gig, you don't fit with the bass and drums, I have to keep turning you down, and you're the bluddy lead vox/git in a three-piece!! Have you actually listened to Rory Gallagher's sound? A) You sound nothing like it, and B) you're not really playing that kind of music anyway..." etc, etc... :roll: He made me question why the knobs were there on the amp, and more importantly why I'd set them like I'd set them. Then he explained how the knobs worked, and after a while he was feeding me back with "great sound out front tonight..."
I think either way will work for you. Or, more importantly, you can make either way work for you. One way might indeed be better for you in the long run, but you're only going to be able to find that out by trying stuff out.
It's not the route I'd try myself for what I'm trying to achieve at the moment, but I think the following is a really good suggestion:
As you've headed down this road, why not try the full pedal approach and see if you like it?
It will get you somewhere close, it takes advantage of some of the kit and experience you already have, and it gets you some more knowledge/experience of how kit behaves for you :D
One thing though - you're never really gonna be happy with your guitar sound from one day to the next, ever... none of us ever will be... and what's even funnier, all our guitar-tone-heroes, the sounds we're reaching for, they're not always happy with the sounds they're making either :lol:
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I prefer amp distortion.
What I don't like is having to use FX loops for delays, as they usually degrade the tone compared to the amp without using the loop. If you use pedals into a cleanish amp, you can use any true bypass delay pedal after the dirt pedals and won't have that issue.
I think a Marshall JCM or JMP with a DS-1 or Tubescreamer is hard to beat in that sense, looking at the tones some people get like this.
But for me amp overdrive always seems to work better, it just seems more punchy, more dynamic and more "real" to me (it's also a feel thing).
I think this is mainly because I usually cannot turn my amps up enough, and the Pedal=>Marshall combination starts to sound glorious mainly when the amp is pushed beyond 5 on the master.
this is an interesting perspective hunter. i also prefer amp distortion, but with the right pedal you can change the character just enough in a particular direction, and this can also depend on the guitar you use.
my favourite three boosters - OD1, Thundertomate Hilbourne and modded GE-7 are all in great with my Marshall 2204, but it depends on the guitar i use.
so i think 85% amp, and 15% pedal. i should say, i usually leave the pedal switched on all the time usually on a more subtle setting. perhaps one day i'll get into using a pedal for leads. my amp really suits that.
my PAF-type pickup Vs and strats sound like liquid joy with the Tomate Hilbourne and my 2204.. my favourite tone at the moment :)
the organic nature of valve distortion is for me the best, but a bit of synthetic spice from a pedal can really move a tone from good, to godly
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but a bit of synthetic spice from a pedal can really move a tone from good, to godly
This is probably the bit I'm missing :lol:
But my gut feeling (from using the odd overdrive pedal as a boost over the years when i was gigging) is that it only really comes into its own some way above my modest "let's drown out Strictly Come Dancing on the TV" volume...
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I would have to say, the very best option is a perfect mix of both. I've played amps with days of gain. But I can't get into the feel, without my tube screamer plugged in. I mean amp distortion gives your tone dynamics, but pedal distortion can affect the way it feels. So Both mixed is my vote.
OH but if your talking about when an amps ONLY distortion is from a pedal. Then I would have to vote on the amp. :\ Pedal distortion just kills dynamics.
Edit: Dynamics as in, I feel like pedal distortion kinda squashing the tone range.
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You can actually pick up a JVM for around £500.
I don't own a JVM any more but I loved that amp. It did everything I needed it too, the best Marshall I've played with.
I only sold it so I could have more money towards a PRS and use the rest to buy a 1 x 12 combo because the JVM was way more than I needed.
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Interesting that Dave (Twinfan) seems to be heading that direction at the moment himself after much time with pedals. I'm sure he's not going to suddenly ditch the pedals, but it seems a good example of it being personal preference and that your preference might change with time and with what you're trying to achieve.
Actually Andy, I've got four pedals sat here by my PC waiting for pics to be taken before I sell them :lol:
I've moved to amp gain almost exclusively. I have a couple of fuzz pedals (as amps don't do that tone), a BB Preamp on my main board as a backup for gigging, plus a Centaur clone on my small board for home use.
On a normal live gig, I won't use any gain pedals at all.
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I prefer my amps drive but I still have a distortion/ fuzz on my board just in case my amps went down and I have to use my Crate Powerblock as an emergency backup.
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Mmmmmm, it's been great to spark a good response and I find on this particular forum I'm far more likely to get intelligent and thoughtful responses from people who really know their stuff than I can from any other forum. Every response has been interesting to read so thanks to you all. Am I any nearer a solution? No, but I have been able to expand my knowledge and understanding and that's never a bad thing. So, what have I discovered?
1) There's no clearly defined right or wrong to this question. Whether an amp has better distortions or not depends on the amp you're using and the same is true of pedals.
2) Although there haven't been many concrete suggestions on amps I could look at in my budget, I get the impression that I should keep a very open mind. The Marshall JVM 410H remains an option, as does the Blackstar HT Stage 100. To those two I am inclined to add a Marshall DSL50/100, Laney TT-50, Laney VH100 and Laney GH100.
3) As tastes change I should perhaps look for an amp that does the ranges of distortion I want but also has a decent clean channel to use distortion pedals on if that's the sound I decide I'm after.
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There is no way wrong.
- I prefer amp distortion with my rockband cause I can really press out the dynamics of my Orange Rockerverb.
- But I also play in a coverband with a hornsection and on stage the overal soundvolume is at least half of my rockband. So I have to turn the Rockerverb down. Still sounds goods, but the mastervolume is to low to hit the sweet spot of the Rockerverb. For heavy stuff in the coverband is use a Suhr Riot, which is specially designed in the front of a clean channel. It sounds massive and very much like a good tube amp. Really it does. Watch the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Feyne-dQxjg
- On the drivechannel I turn the drive to half and for blistering solo's I use the Emma Reezafratzitz, which is an outstanding distortionpedal with great tubeamp character and respons. This setup delivers fat distortion with long sustain at relatively low volume. The Emma does well in front of the clean channel too.
- I must admit that ampdistortion is more touchsensitive and has more an organic feel/sound then pedals in front of the cleanchannel, but with the Riot I come close and on low volumes it evens sounds better then the drivechannel.
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Mmmmmm, it's been great to spark a good response and I find on this particular forum I'm far more likely to get intelligent and thoughtful responses from people who really know their stuff than I can from any other forum. Every response has been interesting to read so thanks to you all. Am I any nearer a solution? No, but I have been able to expand my knowledge and understanding and that's never a bad thing. So, what have I discovered?
1) There's no clearly defined right or wrong to this question. Whether an amp has better distortions or not depends on the amp you're using and the same is true of pedals.
2) Although there haven't been many concrete suggestions on amps I could look at in my budget, I get the impression that I should keep a very open mind. The Marshall JVM 410H remains an option, as does the Blackstar HT Stage 100. To those two I am inclined to add a Marshall DSL50/100, Laney TT-50, Laney VH100 and Laney GH100.
3) As tastes change I should perhaps look for an amp that does the ranges of distortion I want but also has a decent clean channel to use distortion pedals on if that's the sound I decide I'm after.
A JVM has lots of options and will satisfy most of your needs, however I think a DSL sounds a bit better. Take a look at Orange too, a (used) Rockerverb, Thunderverb, the new Thunder and Dual Terror. Really underestimated is the Hughes & Kettner Trilogy, used you can pick this one up for no money, when you can lay your hands on one, cause you don't see them much. A used Budda Superdrive 30 or 45 could make you happy too.
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I should probably clarify- when I say "amp distortion", I mean either amp distortion on its own, or the distorted amp with a pedal for a boost. I count that as amp distortion too. I only really count "pedal into clean amp", where all the distortion is coming from the pedal, as pedal distortion. :oops: :lol:
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That Hughes & Kettner Trilogy sounds like a similar concept to the Marshall JVM410 in many respects. It certainly sounds like a fantastic amp but a search on Ebay produced no results. Still, I'm in no immediate rush as the Marshall DSL401 I have now is good enough for gigs through my 4X12 so I'll be patient and keep my eyes open. Once I've got a Yamaha Pacifica as my backup guitar, changed the scratchplate on it, put the pickups from my Jackson in it and loaded the Jackson with Bareknuckles; then it will become a more pressing matter for me and hopefully by then I'll have tried a few of these amps for myself.
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you should also look into the H&K switchblade that is another awesome amp.
Also if you can find one
an old Marshall 6100 head
its pretty much identical to the JVM but is older and generally a bit cheaper but the head is blue
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you should also look into the H&K switchblade that is another awesome amp.
Also if you can find one
an old Marshall 6100 head
its pretty much identical to the JVM but is older and generally a bit cheaper but the head is blue
I absolutely hated the Switchblade myself, thought it sounded like a really cheap and nasty distortion pedal, but that's just me and my opinion :lol:
A +1 on the 6100 (black) or 6100LM (anniversary model with Blue tolex if I recall?) though. I tried 1 years ago and really liked it, but if I bought it I wouldn't have been able to have bought a cab for it, so I went with my JCM800 instead.
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Yeah i thought it was the other way around and that the anniversary one was black for some reason.
Probably because the blue one comes up a lot more on ebay
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you should also look into the H&K switchblade that is another awesome amp.
Also if you can find one
an old Marshall 6100 head
its pretty much identical to the JVM but is older and generally a bit cheaper but the head is blue
I absolutely hated the Switchblade myself, thought it sounded like a really cheap and nasty distortion pedal, but that's just me and my opinion :lol:
A +1 on the 6100 (black) or 6100LM (anniversary model with Blue tolex if I recall?) though. I tried 1 years ago and really liked it, but if I bought it I wouldn't have been able to have bought a cab for it, so I went with my JCM800 instead.
I think the Trilogy sounds way better then the Switchblade, although some people get great sounds out of it.
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I play a Trainwreck Liverpool, JTM45 and Super Lead.
All of which I get my OD sound from cranking the two Marshalls I boost with a TS9 type pedal the Wreck needs no help in the gain department.
I don't like the whole clean amp + dist pedal thing i've tried it but for me it lacks authority and girth of tone, also lacks in the dynamics dept.
Nothing quite roars like a 100w Super Lead dimed with a TS9 boosting it.. pure rock!
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I play a Trainwreck Liverpool, JTM45 and Super Lead.
All of which I get my OD sound from cranking the two Marshalls I boost with a TS9 type pedal the Wreck needs no help in the gain department.
I don't like the whole clean amp + dist pedal thing i've tried it but for me it lacks authority and girth of tone, also lacks in the dynamics dept.
Nothing quite roars like a 100w Super Lead dimed with a TS9 boosting it.. pure rock!
You're right. I would like to fire up my Rockerverb to the massive burning sound this amp is known for. But in the coverband I play I often have to play on low vol.levels and in this case the Suhr Riot does the trick very well on the clean channel. So it a second best option.
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have you tried running a boost in front of the dsl to tighten it up (get rid of the mush) then an eq in the loop for a solo boost?
i used dsl's for shows a few months back and really liked the sound i got out of it with an od1 boosting the front end.
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I use a buffered Toadworks Dual Boost in front of the amp to compensate all the loss (from cables and effectboard. Works very well.
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have you tried running a boost in front of the dsl to tighten it up (get rid of the mush) then an eq in the loop for a solo boost?
i used dsl's for shows a few months back and really liked the sound i got out of it with an od1 boosting the front end.
That's exactly the position I'm in (pretty much). The distortion on the DSL is just a bit too mushy by itself but with an overdrive in front of the amp it tightens up beautifully. The problem is that an MXR Boost pedal in the loop then can't boost the volume any further so I have nowhere to go with a solo, hence I'm forced into using a pedal distortion through the clean channel whenever I have a solo to play. For the moment I can't really complain as it sounds fine but what I really want for the future is an amp that will give me that tight and crushing distortion that I like without the need for an overdrive pedal to tighten it up further. It also needs to be able to take a boost for solos as well as have a lovely warm clean channel. Ideally I'd like to be able to sell the TL-2 and Bad Monkey and possibly the MXR Boost too and do it all with the amp but as yet I'm unsure which amp that would be. I keep coming back to the Marshall JVM because although loads of people tell me it's a jack of all trades and master of none, it does seem to have loads of distortion options as well as the ability to boost the volume. Even the 205 seems to have plenty possibilities while the 410 has more than most people will ever need. As long as the distortion is tight enough it sounds as close to what I want as I'm going to get.
I also bought a 1 year old Yamaha Pacifica yesterday for £80 so that I can transfer the Seymour Duncans out of my Soloist into it (should make it a really nice backup guitar for very little money) and load some Bareknuckles into the Jackson. From what I can gather, the Miracle Man will be really good for tight distortion so it looks like I'll go with a Miracle Man and Trilogy Suite set. Now I just need more money :D