Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Twinfan on May 13, 2011, 01:02:01 PM
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I've got a serious thing for these :o 8)
http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/electrics/prs/private_stock/11174197/11174197.php
http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/electrics/prs/private_stock/11174268/11174268.php
(http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/electrics/prs/private_stock/11174268/11174268_f.jpg)(http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/electrics/prs/private_stock/11174197/11174197_f.jpg)
(http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/electrics/prs/private_stock/11174268/11174268_t.jpg)(http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/electrics/prs/private_stock/11174197/11174197_t.jpg)
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Step away from the credit card :lol:
That IS nice like, but I'd be sh*it scared to play it in case I marked it.
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I won't say again how I don't like the pickup rings or mini switches (oops, just did :oops: ).
They look lovely, but Private Stock stuff is really just eye candy to me, it's too expensive to touch, never mind buy! :lol:
Just noticed, they've got "New Robson Tuning Pegs". Never heard of those before. :?
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I won't say again how I don't like the pickup rings or mini switches (oops, just did :oops: ).
They look lovely, but Private Stock stuff is really just eye candy to me, it's too expensive to touch, never mind buy! :lol:
I really like the non-standard pickup shape - its a little bit different.
There is the argument of it being much tougher to replace the pickups, but on a guitar of that price you'd hope that the pickups were already perfect.
I'm glad theres a matching pair as well - I can't gig without a backup :wink: :lol:
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Some sort of vintage-y style pegs with ivoroid buttons or something. Who knows what the hell they are :lol: I think they're like the old open backed acoustic tuners but covered.
I also think PRS pickups have improved greatly of late. I really liked the Narrowfield ones I had for a little while, and the 57/08 PAF style ones get rave reviews. I'd be surprised if these weren't top notch.
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Some sort of vintage-y style pegs with ivoroid buttons or something. Who knows what the hell they are :lol: I think they're like the old open backed acoustic tuners but covered.
Yeah, they look like acoustic tuners. Everybody always raves on about how great those "Waverly" tuners are supposed to be, but I've never understood why the open backs don't lead to them getting all stiff and clogged up with gunk.
The pickups certainly ought to be top notch. But there's always the possibility that they're just not to your taste, so it's still a pain that they'd be hard to replace. Then again, I suppose nobody's likely to buy one of these as a "project" guitar. :lol:
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:lol: Indeed. I think people will take them as they come...
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They're very you!
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Suit's you sir... Do you want it? :)
http://youtu.be/m1fMf8CB7jE
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I'd love one, but in a better colour...
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I prefer the ME that you already have Dave, maybe I'd like these if they were a different colour? I normally like Bengal burst Suhrs but those 2 don't really do much for me :(
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I know what you mean, I often find the "autumnal" PRS colours a little dull looking (although my McCarty Korina and Mira X are both sunbursts). I'm usually more taken with colours like black cherry, or blues and greens.
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I reckon one in this colour would look pretty darn tasty:
(http://www.willcuttguitars.com/product%20images/030411/171477-6.jpg)
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That is one hell of a colour!
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urrgh.
Dave. They be dentist's guitars :)
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that's some nice bookmatching on the one on the right
that being said, private stock prices are crazy :lol:
EDIT: I see they're not listing any prices on those links... guess it's "If you have to ask..."? :lol:
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I know what you mean, I often find the "autumnal" PRS colours a little dull looking (although my McCarty Korina and Mira X are both sunbursts). I'm usually more taken with colours like black cherry, or blues and greens.
Agreed. Black Cherry or a darker blue burst woukld be awesome however my favorite PRS colour is the one Dave's got.... would match my favorite jeans a treat! Lol.... :lol:
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If I was going to buy a guitar just to look at, it'd be one of these.
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Beautiful guitars, without question. If I win the Euromillion jackpot tonight I might pick up a few and fashion them into occasional tables. :)
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These guitars sound & look unbelievable !And i love the pu's shape (not so much at first sight but now..yes!).And it makes sense too:the neck pu is like a Narrow-field (clear,not muddy) and the bridge is full-humbucker 8)!The only problem..is the price !That's all :)...
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Great guitars for sure, but cost a fortune.
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Another one on eBay. Quilt top and trem. Meh.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/230621379950
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Beautiful guitars, without question. If I win the Euromillion jackpot tonight I might pick up a few and fashion them into occasional tables. :)
priceless :lol:
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Another one on eBay. Quilt top and trem. Meh.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/230621379950
urgh!, not keen on that one mind - looks like someone's had diarrhoea on the guitar.
love this Gold Top PRS though... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1998-USA-Paul-Reed-Smith-PRS-CE22-Gold-Top-/290562882847?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item43a6e5bd1f#ht_8583wt_1139
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urgh!, not keen on that one mind - looks like someone's had diarrhoea on the guitar.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:lol:
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Another one on eBay. Quilt top and trem. Meh.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/230621379950
urgh!, not keen on that one mind - looks like someone's had diarrhoea on the guitar.
You're right, that top would've been so much better in a less poo-like colour!
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If I ever win the lottery I will buy one of these. Then I'd rough sandpaper it, spraypaint it bright red and cover it in stickers. And fit DiMarzio Super Distortions in it. Then give it them back.
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If I ever win the lottery I will buy one of these. Then I'd rough sandpaper it, spraypaint it bright red and cover it in stickers. And fit DiMarzio Super Distortions in it. Then give it them back.
you forgot the Kahler :lol:
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If I ever win the lottery I will buy one of these. Then I'd rough sandpaper it, spraypaint it bright red and cover it in stickers. And fit DiMarzio Super Distortions in it. Then give it them back.
you forgot the Kahler :lol:
And the Grolsch beer bottle tops in lieu of strap locks. I also think there's room to roughly rout out some space to put another pickup in the middle there.
I really can't get excited about these at all. I just don't get PRS guitars. I think I lack the sophistication to appreciate very fancy wood topped guitars. I recognise that it puts me in a minority but I've never seen a PRS that gave me a hint of GAS. I should probably try harder.
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Very nice Dave.
These are have that lolly appeal too
http://www.carvinworld.com/customshop/carvedtop.php
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If I ever win the lottery I will buy one of these. Then I'd rough sandpaper it, spraypaint it bright red and cover it in stickers. And fit DiMarzio Super Distortions in it. Then give it them back.
you forgot the Kahler :lol:
And the Grolsch beer bottle tops in lieu of strap locks. I also think there's room to roughly rout out some space to put another pickup in the middle there.
I really can't get excited about these at all. I just don't get PRS guitars. I think I lack the sophistication to appreciate very fancy wood topped guitars. I recognise that it puts me in a minority but I've never seen a PRS that gave me a hint of GAS. I should probably try harder.
i'm exactly the same i find them very dull with nice tops and thats it
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I really can't get excited about these at all. I just don't get PRS guitars. I think I lack the sophistication to appreciate very fancy wood topped guitars. I recognise that it puts me in a minority but I've never seen a PRS that gave me a hint of GAS. I should probably try harder.
I know this has been debated a lot, and I accept that PRS isn't for everyone, I'm not trying to "convert" you.... :wink:
But they do make a number of different models. I've owned 7 PRS guitars and not one of them had a fancy wood top!
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You need to get past the looks, gents. Pick one up and play one :)
Hell, if I can convert shobet into possibly buying a Modern Eagle in the future then everyone can be "turned" :lol:
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I've played a few different ones.
They just don't do anything for me.
I can see the appeal for others though
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I've played a few different ones.
They just don't do anything for me.
I can see the appeal for others though
I played a friend's Tremonti a fair bit and it didn't amaze me. I do appreciate there are many and various models though. As I said, maybe I'm just not trying hard enough.
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They'll sure be great guitars but looking too spectacular for me. I imagine going on stage with one of these and feeling like I'd have the $$$ guitar to make up for my mediocre playing.
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Good point Hunter, but not everyone who drives a Ferrari has the skills to be a racing driver!
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They'll sure be great guitars but looking too spectacular for me. I imagine going on stage with one of these and feeling like I'd have the $$$ guitar to make up for my mediocre playing.
The story of my life. With any guitar.
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oh i like them, i have nothing against fancy tops and stuff like that (if anything i like them) i just don't really think they're worth the money they go for over here. the only one i really tried that i was really like "wow, that's great" was a mccarty artist model at about £3200 (this was a while back, not sure if the exact same model is available now), and while a good guitar is a good guitar, when I can find other manufacturers where i'm often going "wow" for five or six hundred quid (granted they're normally good deals), certainly a thousand or fifteen hundred...
yeah. I mean if you can afford a bunch of them, more power to you, they're certainly excellent guitars. I could afford one, but I don't much see the point of buying one of them when i could buy 3 or 4 guitars made by someone else which i'd like as much.
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To each his own I guess. It just annoys me when people slate them for their looks. Can something pretty not sound good?
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To each his own I guess. It just annoys me when people slate them for their looks. Can something pretty not sound good?
It surely can but beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder. Elborately figured woods have never appealed to me much in guitars, furniture or anything else: I just find that it detracts from the overall shape and form of the instrument/chair whatever. But that is personal preference of course and each to their own. I do think the McCarty Korina is/was a good looking guitar and would be the kind of thing that would be most likely to turn my head from their range.
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To each his own I guess. It just annoys me when people slate them for their looks. Can something pretty not sound good?
And after all, many a Les Paul has been prized for its flame maple top.... and not too many people go on about them being lawyer/dentist/stockbroker guitars. Even though the prices are comparable to PRS!
(I know there's a bit of a "plain top LP community", but it's very much a minority)
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^ +1
To each his own I guess. It just annoys me when people slate them for their looks. Can something pretty not sound good?
oh i agree, it annoys me too :)
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There's a review of the PRS Signature in the May issue of Guitar Player.
An interesting little fact about the pickups and wiring:
The 408s [have].... an ability to maintain a consistent volume when switched from humbucking to single-coil mode. This is due to an additional 1,500 winds of wire on each pickup that is engaged when you activate the single-coil switch. It makes the "split" output effectively the same as the full humbucker's, but without affecting the single-coil response.
(I still don't like the look of the mini-switches!)
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oh i like them, i have nothing against fancy tops and stuff like that (if anything i like them) i just don't really think they're worth the money they go for over here.
No, they're embarrassingly overpriced in the UK. To the point that I have to kinda think anyone that buys one here is a bit of a clown (if the same guitar is available elsewhere, obviously). I'm going by 2008 figures, but at that point, you could import ANY PRS from the US, including all taxes and shipping, cheaper than UK trade price. It's obscene. Lots of other brands are similarly overpriced, but none by anything like the same margin that I recall at that stage.
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yeah, see to me that makes me not want one. Mesa is another that springs to mind.
If I can (theoretically- I realise a lot of the time brands refuse to let their dealers export... I have no idea why that might be :lol: ) import one, while paying retail prices for shipping, and paying all the VAT and customs charges, for much less than I can buy one in a dealer here, there's something wrong somewhere.
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It probably still is cheaper to buy a PRS from the USA than in the UK (shop prices).
Although it's preferable to try the guitar first, especially an expensive one, I'm sure you'd agree.
But what are Gibson markups like? A new Les Paul Traditional or '08 Standard is about £1,800 now, that's not far off PRS prices (in fact it's a lot more than the PRS models I personally buy, but then I'm not comparing like with like).
And wouldn't the same UK/US price disparity be true of, I dunno, a Mesa amp? Surely PRS aren't the worst offenders.
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My recollection was that nothing else came close to the PRS markups. I think it was a punter was arguing he could import one with all taxes vastly cheaper than the best deal we could do, so we'd worked it out and were amazed. Gibson price difference between the US and UK came down after Rosetti vanished (though the guitars themselves got more expensive, and the supply managed to get even worse, and Rosetti were a joke...) and weren't ever as big.
Mesa has a big difference, too, yeah. Various PA manufacturers. Maybe Martin too. But in terms of electric guitars, at that stage PRS were the worst by a long way. I've not worked in guitar shops for a year and a half though.
Also, the above was the case when I was working for Sound Control, who got the cheapest prices on pretty much everything, it's not like I'm basing it on a small independent who got hammered because they only bought three or four guitars from these companies a year.
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Although it's preferable to try the guitar first, especially an expensive one, I'm sure you'd agree.
true but then i can't really try a prs here anyway. :lol: aside from the cost of returns (which is admittedly a lot more costly to the US), i'd be buying unseen whether i buy from england or america, lol.
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So UK PRS buyers are clowns eh nfe? Great way to make friends on a guitar forum! :lol:
I think the exchange rate situation is a bit different now, plus I'm happy to support the good UK companies I buy from for guitars, car parts etc.
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With the price difference in mind, I tend to think so, yeah. I don't imagine it has any more impact on making friends than when I tell people the same in person, other than not being able to read tone of voice. Mind you, this is the only guitar forum I post on anymore as the vast majority of people on guitar forums I'd never want to be friends with :lol:
I'm keen to buy from UK stores, but if presented with the chance to buy a guitar i wanted from abroad cheaper than my choice UK stores can even buy it from a supplier, I think I'd be a mentalist not to.
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That's fine for cheaper stuff, but I don't think I'd want to risk £3000+ for a CS Les Paul (for example) to international couriers. Insurance is fine, but it's the hassle if something goes wrong :(
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The potential for a massive pain in the arse is obviously a factor, yeah. But for several hundred pound savings, worth it, I'd reckon.
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The potential for a massive pain in the arse is obviously a factor, yeah. But for several hundred pound savings, worth it, I'd reckon.
You can get a ticket to NY, try out lots of guitars, buy one, take it back as carry on baggage (BA let you do that), all for less than the UK price. The exchange rate is 1.65 now, and the US prices on a lot of guitars are less than the UK prices, just in numbers (i.e. $1000 vs. £1000). Second hand guitars are even better value.
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The potential for a massive pain in the arse is obviously a factor, yeah. But for several hundred pound savings, worth it, I'd reckon.
You can get a ticket to NY, try out lots of guitars, buy one, take it back as carry on baggage (BA let you do that), all for less than the UK price. The exchange rate is 1.65 now, and the US prices on a lot of guitars are less than the UK prices, just in numbers (i.e. $1000 vs. £1000). Second hand guitars are even better value.
What happens at Customs back in Blighty? Declare it as something you've purchased, or bluff your way through? "Look, it's old, obviously I didn't just buy it!"
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Legally, you should declare it and stump up the 3.7% import duty and the 20% VAT on top of that. The total cost of guitar for any comparison is then:
Flight + one night accomodation and local transport + ((guitar*1.037)*1.2)
Let's take the brand new PRS Studio as an example, $3123 at Wilcutts (not in NYC, but a decent price example).
www.willcuttguitars.com/paul-reed-smith/studio/prs-studio-22-black-gold-wrap-10-top-981
Using www.xe.com for a price conversion and rounded to the nearest pound:
£400 + £100 + ((1935*1.037)*1.2) = £2908
Studios in the UK are £2749, so clearly cheaper.
www.guitars4you.co.uk/product-detail.php?id=324
Unless the 8.875% sales tax can be deducted if the guitar is heading out of the state?
£400 + £100 + (((1935/1.08875)*1.037))*1.2 = £2712
Hardly worth the bother for a £37 saving :lol:
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Hardly worth the bother for a £37 saving :lol:
Yeah, but what an adventure, eh? :wink:
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I'd rather have a trip to Mark's place in Debyshire!
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yeah i'm guessing they'd let you take the sales tax off.
though i guess you could argue that you got the guitar and a trip to new york for the same price. Though if you're only going for the day it won't be much of a holiday :lol:
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It would be cheaper to ship one over, rather than fly out, but the manufacturers don't allow that kind of distributer under-cutting and could lose their dealership.
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yeah it's very annoying.
they're only doing themselves out of sales... I mean if I think something is worth it at a price I can import it for, but the manufacturer won't let its dealers export it... I'm not buying it at the UK inflated price. I'll bite off my nose to spite my face and do without it first.
:)
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They're not doing themselves out of sales Dave, they're keeping themselves in the music retail business!
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It's really not at all difficult to find a dealer who'll send it to you regardless of what the manufacturer or distributer tells them. It just probably wont depart directly from their shop.
Ask any UK guitar store, or indeed, UK gear distributor.
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They're not doing themselves out of sales Dave, they're keeping themselves in the music retail business!
i dunno.
They're certainly doing themselves out of sales. Maybe they're making a judgement call that they'll make more sales doing it the way they do- I'm sure they have a reason.
[What I'm guessing they're thinking is that they'll make fewer sales, but those they do make will have more profit. And that they'll also keep their distributors etc. in business.
I'm always a bit suspicious of that logic, though, because to me it's a bit close to a self-fulfilling prophecy... demand falls when things are dearer so you have to make more profit per sale. If you sell 10 items you have to make $100 profit per item to make a total profit of $1000. If you sell 100, you only have to make $10 peritem. What's more, if you make $100 profit per item there's much more chance you'll only sell 10 than 100.
Granted that's a simplification, but the principle behind it is sound.]
That doesn't mean I have to endorse that reason- they're looking out blatantly for themselves, I'll look out for me.
:)
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I'm always a bit suspicious of that logic, though, because to me it's a bit close to a self-fulfilling prophecy... demand falls when things are dearer so you have to make more profit per sale. If you sell 10 items you have to make $100 profit per item to make a total profit of $1000. If you sell 100, you only have to make $10 peritem. What's more, if you make $100 profit per item there's much more chance you'll only sell 10 than 100.
Firstly the relationship between demand and price is NOT at all linear. There are many example of increasing price increasing demand as the goods are now considered more desirable because they command a higher price!
Secondly, increasing volume is not always easy. Do you think a smallish manufacturer such as PRS could even double their production whilst maintaining the same qc? I doubt it very much.
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Indeed, jpf.
Any manufacturer needs a supply network which must be maintained to also provide backup/aftersales/parts/local PR and advertising etc. If PRS, Fender or Gibson tried to run their global operations from a US base, only using US dealers to supply clients worldwide, they would fall flat on their backsides.
No product in local shops to be viewed/tried
No warranty issues sorted quickly and locally
Exchange rate fluctuations causing a sudden drop in sales
etc
If the odd customer gets a US dealer to ship a guitar to the UK, bypassing the "system", then it's not a problem I guess. Long term though, the manufacturer has to maintain the "system" to survive at the same size or larger.
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^ I'm not saying they should do that. I'm saying they shouldn't prevent their US dealers from exporting. I'm guessing most buyers would still buy locally- but those who didn't want to would have the option.
I mean here in NI there are no PRS dealers anyway. Granted it's easier to ship back to england than to the US, but it's still not exactly easy. If i'm not getting the local service anyway I might as well get a half-decent price :D
EDIT: I'm never sure about that exchange rate thing. They always tell us, "Oh the rate's good at the moment but we have to build in some leeway in case there's a fluctuation", but then any time there actually is a fluctuation the prices change...
:?
(a) Firstly the relationship between demand and price is NOT at all linear. There are many example of increasing price increasing demand as the goods are now considered more desirable because they command a higher price!
(b) Secondly, increasing volume is not always easy. Do you think a smallish manufacturer such as PRS could even double their production whilst maintaining the same qc? I doubt it very much.
(a) oh sure, that's true, I wouldn't argue against that for a second. It's infuriating, but it's true. For example, on the more US-centric guitar forums i post on, mesa is considered a well-made, but pretty mainstream brand- in the UK it's considered boutique :lol:
I guess it might be more accurate to say I disagree with that as a business practice :)
However, when people literally can't afford the thing, then price versus demand is pretty much linear (or at least much more so... there are a variety of other factors at play too).
(b) Probably not. But the example I gave was an extreme one to illustrate a point. I'm not expecting PRS to make ten times as many guitars, lol.
I just mean, I'm sure PRS sells more guitars in America. Granted it's a bigger market, but I bet it doesn't hurt that they're a lot cheaper too. They're still expensive enough that people think they're a quality product. Everything else is a fair bit cheaper there too so all it does is shift the baseline a bit.
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I'm saying they shouldn't prevent their US dealers from exporting. I'm guessing most buyers would still buy locally- but those who didn't want to would have the option.
And how do you think the UK/French/Japanese/Australian dealer network would feel about that? Especially in times of exchange rate fluctuations?
Should PRS/Gibson/Fender keep the minority customer who would buy an expensive guitar from abroad happy? Or its entire worldwide dealer network?
I think I know what I'd do in PRS/Gibson/Fender's shoes ;)
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i don't see how that's really going to affect them... if (as you say) it's such a minority, it's only going to happen occasionally... and plus if they're anything like me they're not going to pay the local rate if they think it's too dear anyway.
For example:
Let's assume 100 guitarists in the UK (for handiness), and that the minority group think the same as me- 95 are willing to buy from UK shops, 5 think they're too dear and aren't allowed to import, so they don't bother.
95 sales.
Now, with the system which does allow exporting and importing:
that same 95 still buy from within the UK- they were never even thinking of importing anyway.
the other 5 import.
100 sales.
Granted that's a bit of a simplification- in reality there'll be some overlap between the two groups. But again, as a simplified illustration, I think it works ok.
EDIT: the other thing i'd say is, they often don't care *that* much about their dealers- they often let dealers within the country compete on price, etc. etc. Also the old gibson thing where you have to buy a certain number of models to be allowed to be a dealer etc.
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I don't think we'll agree on this Dave :lol:
It's more than just sales numbers - it's about brand awareness, support, image in the market etc.
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yeah i don't think so. :lol:
Don't get me wrong- I understand perfectly why they do it. I just disagree with doing it.
FWIW none of those things matter to me, really (ok, support maybe, but i'd need to be getting a fair bit of support to justify like double the price :lol: )
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It's not just about you though is it Dave ;)
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Nice new avatar Dave (J)! :wink:
Kind of emphasises your standpoint in this debate. :D
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Ha ha! I thought I'd have a swap as I'm selling Pearly, and I'm obviously a fan of Mr Smith's work...
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I was gonna say, "nice avatar, have you got an endorsement deal now?" :lol:
You're selling Pearly?!! :o
I know we must all learn to accept and/or predict any change in the TF armoury, regardless of whether he protests loudly against the possibility or not... (:lol: - that's part of the guaranteed entertainment on this forum) ... but I have to say I'm truly surprised about this development...
Still, there was that thread the other day about using all one's geetars or not... didn't realise this is where it might be heading.
EDIT: Just read the ad in Seconds Out. Makes more sense to me now. Sad stuff, sorry to hear it :(
So you're up for trades? I've got Dano 59 reissue with only five strings on it that I don't play much... any good? :lol: :wink:
Otherwise, it's way out of my league :( - good luck on shifting her though.
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Cheers Andy, and I'll pass on the Dano ;)
It usually takes me a little while to decide if something is a keeper, and every time I want to play guitar I pick up the Modern Eagle - it's just "me". Pearly is the best example of a Les Paul most people will come across, but I'm just not a Les Paul guy. Which has taken me a while to admit to myself...
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Always a tough one admitting to yourself that a big purchase probably hasn't been the right choice in hindsight, eh?
I've been that guy a few times.
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It's not just about you though is it Dave ;)
oh sure, i realise that. I'm just saying that, personally, it's not worth it to me to pay for things which don't/won't affect me. :D And I don't think it's ok to expect me to be ok with paying extra (not saying you're doing this, I mean the bigger companies and shops- they act like I'm awful if I don't keep them in business). :)
Nice new avatar Dave (J)! :wink:
Kind of emphasises your standpoint in this debate. :D
i was scratching my head for 30 seconds there wondering what you meant and then I realised you were talking about twinfan :lol:
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Is this all not a moot point anyway Dave, as I don't think you buy £1000+ guitars where it would be worth importing them from another country for a decent saving?
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I don't want to extend the debate unnecessarily ( :P !), but I still think a major issue with importing expensive guitars is not being able to try them first.
OK, that applies to UK mail order too, but if I buy something from (say) Guitars4you and I'm not happy, I know I can return it for a refund and it's only cost me £20 or something.
If I have to return a guitar to the USA or Japan its potentially going to cost me well over £100 (especially with full insurance), plus it takes forever, you have to fill in Customs declarations etc and there's the risk of damage in transit (in both directions). Doesn't take long to use up that big saving. And what price do you put on inconvenience?
(None of this stops me buying guitars on eBay, but I would be very hesitant about buying a PRS or upmarket Gibson, just because of the higher sums of money involved)
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I've been enjoying the debate - but don't have much to add to it... Remember, I'm the guy who happily buys in Denmark St! :lol:
Still, I only tend to buy stuff in the £700 to £800 ballpark though, so the amount I might pay over the odds compared to a UK internet sale is not huge (I've even managed to get "cheaper than internet" there!). I tend to regard the "extra" as well worth it for the chance to see and try the thing I'm buying. I've never even considered getting stuff from outside of the UK. The furthest I get stuff from is pickups from Cornwall and strings from Plymouth! :lol:
I see what you're saying Dave (mc), but I'm probably nearer to Dave (TF) in my attitude to dealerships/importing/etc/etc. Personally, I have no beef with anyone who wants to charge more than I want to pay for the goods or service they offer - I just won't be one of their customers. I also have no beef with someone who wants to charge more in my town than the town up the road. If the price up the road plus whatever it costs me in money/time is cheaper, that's where I'll get it. If it's not, I'll happily pay the price in my town.
If they charge unrealistic prices they'll go out of business. If they're successfully "overcharging" for something I want it's not their fault, if anything it's mine for not appreciating that there's enough people who value the item higher than I do.
But this is all just the way I look at it and feel about it - I'm definitely not saying it's the way anyone else should think! :lol:
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^ I think the price you charge should be related to how much it costs to produce :)
Is this all not a moot point anyway Dave, as I don't think you buy £1000+ guitars where it would be worth importing them from another country for a decent saving?
Don't think so.
Plenty of things less than £1000 would still make the saving worthwhile- also I may buy the dearer guitars if I were getting a better price on them.
I don't buy PRS here because I don't think they're worth £2k+, not because I'm not willing to spend £2k on a guitar if I did think it were worth it.
:)
I don't want to extend the debate unnecessarily ( :P !), but I still think a major issue with importing expensive guitars is not being able to try them first.
OK, that applies to UK mail order too, but if I buy something from (say) Guitars4you and I'm not happy, I know I can return it for a refund and it's only cost me £20 or something.
If I have to return a guitar to the USA or Japan its potentially going to cost me well over £100 (especially with full insurance), plus it takes forever, you have to fill in Customs declarations etc and there's the risk of damage in transit (in both directions). Doesn't take long to use up that big saving. And what price do you put on inconvenience?
(None of this stops me buying guitars on eBay, but I would be very hesitant about buying a PRS or upmarket Gibson, just because of the higher sums of money involved)
Oh, I agree- it's certainly not black and white.
However, for my own personal situation, most of the stuff i want to buy I have to buy sight unseen anyway as the shops here don't stock them.
Granted sending back abroad is much more costly- but again it's a cost/benefit kind of thing, and depends on each item, how much it costs, etc..
Funnily enough I'm really wary about buying from Ebay- much more so than the majority of you guys are. :lol: So I certainly understand and sympathise with the cautious approach.
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Funnily enough I'm really wary about buying from Ebay- much more so than the majority of you guys are. :lol: So I certainly understand and sympathise with the cautious approach.
I'm generally more confident buying from an individual on eBay than - by mail order - from a dealer (UK, leaving aside the "importing" debate for a moment).
Of course you have to take that leap of faith of trusting a stranger (their feedback and the general vibe of the description in their ads helps with that). Once you've done that, you've got (usually) loads of photos of the actual item (not a "stock" photo like GAK and many other dealers use). And you can ask questions and get (usually) honest answers. If they're anything like me, they're scrupulously honest because they don't want any comeback after the sale!
Whereas with shops, they usually can't be bothered to take photos and they're much less responsive to queries. When I ask my standard question ("how much does it weigh?" :roll: :lol: ) I've more than once had shops send me an answer which turns out to be (at best) a lazy guess or (at worst) an outright lie.
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i'm not sure where i stand on the ebay thing... :lol: after that last bc rich fiasco (i did finally get my money back, which is the main thing, but i wasn't too impressed with ebay's system of resolutions- thanks to all you guys for your help in getting it sorted, by the way, i didn't want to bump the thread any more, lol), i think i currently trust the e-bay-only sellers the least...
i don't mind buying from shops or manufacturers on ebay if i'd otherwise just be buying from their websites...
obviously that's only based on anecdotal evidence...
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I think the price you charge should be related to how much it costs to produce :)
So you'd ignore development costs, advertising costs so people knew your product actually existed, market positioning against competitors etc?
Plus as JPF says, cost is an indicator of quality. Look at how many watches Rolex sell easily for £4000+.
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^ I think the price you charge should be related to how much it costs to produce :)
So what would a reasonable formula for production costs versus price be?
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Plus as JPF says, cost is an indicator of quality. Look at how many watches Rolex sell easily for £4000+.
True, but once you've achieved that perception of quality for your brand, it gives you carte blanche to charge much higher prices and make higher profit margins (and you get into that strange upper echelon where some customers actually want to pay more because they see it as a status symbol).
Whereas a no-name competitor may make a product almost as good but be forced to operate within much tighter margins simply to sell their product.
Which takes us back to the old "double or triple the price for 10% better quality" which particularly applies to guitars.
(I'm not disagreeing with the principles, it's just "market forces", innit? :wink: )
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I think the price you charge should be related to how much it costs to produce :)
So you'd ignore development costs, advertising costs so people knew your product actually existed, market positioning against competitors etc?
Plus as JPF says, cost is an indicator of quality. Look at how many watches Rolex sell easily for £4000+.
Development costs are production costs. Advertising costs need to be factored in.
Generally I think moral pricing is a reasonable markup over total overheads. But virtually no business in a capitalist world is going to follow that thinking. It does irritate me when people charge excessive prices purely to insinuate a level of craftsmanship. In guitar terms charging top flight handbuilt prices for guitars that absolutely are not handbuilt. Irritates me more when these companies fill their advertising with guys holding planes stood amongst piles of curled woodshavings, right enough :lol:
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:lol:
I just knew I didn't have to respond to "I think the price you charge should be related to how much it costs to produce"...
I can see that way of thinking, Dave (mc). But it ought to be: "I think the price you charge should be related to how much it costs to get it to the customer". Even then, I'm not happy with it.
In general, I'm a firm believer in "the price you charge should be related to how much you think people will pay". If that's less than it costs you to get it to market, then you haven't got a viable product.
If you get it wrong either way, too low, too high, you won't be making/selling the stuff for too long.
There are times when setting a lower or higher price might be a good idea - but these decisions should be made for business reasons, not altruistic reasons. Otherwise you're not running a business. Unless you've got a lot of capital behind you and don't have to make money to eat and pay your bills, then you'll need a new job sooner or later.
When you've hit the big time, and have this wonderful reputation that sells units without you doing anything, and you can afford to do things in vast quantity cheaper, then you might bring the unit price down considerably. You might even market it as "we're good folks, we bring you quality stuff at what it costs to produce rather than charging some huge mark-up... cos we believe in [wotever]"
But that message ain't what it's really about - it's not altruistic and for the people at all, it's all about stuffing other people (the opposition) good and proper... It's "hey! mebbe I can shift more units than my competitors".
If you can get your price low enough, it'll even be cheaper than some of your competitors can even make the thing!! Woo! Result... get out of that and stay fashionable you b@stards...
All the while you're doing this, you'll probably be able to ignore the fact that you've deprived some of these now unfashionable competitors of their livelihood and made them go back to where ever they came from. But it's all cool, cos you can tell the marketplace "we only charge what it cost to make".
Stuff is only ever going to be worth what people are prepared to pay for it, no other figure applies.
You could legislate that some other figure applies - but that would mean either that you and I will have to pay a WHOLE LOT MORE, or there'll be less stuff available because no-one will be able to afford to make or market it.
EDIT: nfe posted while was typing. He said some of mine more concisely than I did and covered some other ground. I can't be @rsed to go and change it again... so I'll just add this little appendix:
I too get irritated when folks claim something is something it's not... but on the other hand, it still comes down to what is the finished product actually like (including the name on it) and do people want it at that price. If folks don't want it, the company wasted it's resource developing that strategy, nobody will buy it. If folks do want it, then they're making and marketing stuff that sells. So I am kind of left with a feeling of "good luck to them"...
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So you'd ignore development costs, advertising costs so people knew your product actually existed, market positioning against competitors etc?
Plus as JPF says, cost is an indicator of quality. Look at how many watches Rolex sell easily for £4000+.
no, i'd be including those obviously.
So what would a reasonable formula for production costs versus price be?
well if i were in business i'd like to think i'd charge what it cost to produce the item- including things like wages, r&d, stuff like that (including any other inherent costs you can think of).
I'm not saying i'd mandate it or anything like that. I'm just saying that's what i'd do, and what I think other businesses should ideally do. It'd (presumably) be pretty easy to work out, considering they're already setting prices based on some kind of formula.
I realise they won't. :lol:
True, but once you've achieved that perception of quality for your brand, it gives you carte blanche to charge much higher prices and make higher profit margins (and you get into that strange upper echelon where some customers actually want to pay more because they see it as a status symbol).
Whereas a no-name competitor may make a product almost as good but be forced to operate within much tighter margins simply to sell their product.
Which takes us back to the old "double or triple the price for 10% better quality" which particularly applies to guitars.
(I'm not disagreeing with the principles, it's just "market forces", innit? :wink: )
+1
I mean I understand how the market works. That doesn't mean I agree with it.
Development costs are production costs. Advertising costs need to be factored in.
Generally I think moral pricing is a reasonable markup over total overheads. But virtually no business in a capitalist world is going to follow that thinking. It does irritate me when people charge excessive prices purely to insinuate a level of craftsmanship. In guitar terms charging top flight handbuilt prices for guitars that absolutely are not handbuilt. Irritates me more when these companies fill their advertising with guys holding planes stood amongst piles of curled woodshavings, right enough :lol:
+1
(a) I can see that way of thinking, Dave (mc). But it ought to be: "I think the price you charge should be related to how much it costs to get it to the customer".
(b) In general, I'm a firm believer in "the price you charge should be related to how much you think people will pay". If that's less than it costs you to get it to market, then you haven't got a viable product.
(a) that's what i meant, obviously.
(b) I just don't agree with charging what you think you can get away with. I just disagree with the principle of it.
EDIT: if you can make something cheaper than other people and put them out of business because you can make it and sell it cheaper than they can, I have no problem with that. That's actually one of the few bits of capitalism that I don't have that much problem with (by that i mean there's lots of capitalism i don't agree with, but if we're gonna have capitalism, that's pretty much an inherent part of it). :?
Maybe I've completely misunderstood what you're saying, but you seem to be saying, "good luck" to firms which can talk people into buying stuff even if it's overpriced, yet feel sorry for firms if they go out of business because they can't compete as they don't build as good a product or can't make that product as cheaply. :?
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Yeah it seems I am saying that, doesn't it! :lol:
Not quite what I meant to get across, though it does follow from what I wrote. (I got a bit distracted and kept coming back to it... there was a "devil's advocate" approach in there somewhere, but I'm buggered if I can figure out what I was doing now...)
All I'm really trying to say is that as a consumer I don't personally feel I have any input on it other than my "yes I'll pay that, no I won't pay that". And I'm more than happy with that state of affairs. I don't want to be able to impose anything on the folks that make or distribute stuff - what they want to charge is up to them as far as I'm concerned. They get my business or they don't.
I also never quite see it when folks talk about "firms talking people into buying stuff even if it's overpriced" - yes, the marketing, same as the media, same as what we're doing right now posting on the web, yes all this helps form buyers opinions... but no firm can talk someone into buying something that's overpriced, the consumers that buy the things do it to themselves. No-one's forcing me to buy a Rolex, or PRS, or whatever.... And, indeed, I'm very unlikely to. I personally don't believe that these items are overpriced, they just cost more than they're worth to me personally.
Yes, I do feel sorry for companies that go under because they can't compete. But that is the way of the world, if you've not got a viable business, then you've not got one, sorry... (and I've worked for one or two... I strongly suspect that I'm working for one now and have been the past 11 years, but my job is safe for at least another year or two, and has been all that time)
What I was actually trying to hint at in that bit was that if we were to force everyone to sell at "cost" we guarantee that those people will go out of business and that we would lose a lot of talented people and products. In guitar terms, a PRS or Gibson limited to cost will be way cheaper than one built by the talented luthier in the next village. The quality of the finished products will still vary by only a small margin, and it turns out the cheaper one, half the price, a third even, is the famous and fashionable one! I wonder what the masses will buy? How is a newcomer ever going to break into that market? We'll be stuck with the big businesses that already exist and we'll all have to sell our souls to them if we want a job or products.
I was also trying to hint that if, say, Gibson (I'm guessing, I know nothing about their finances and business models) turned round and sold at cost, they'd be telling you that they were doing it because you asked them to. But that isn't why they'd be doing it at all, they'd be trying to talk you into buying their products for that reason, but they'd be doing it to steal market share at the expense of their competitors.
Nah... I'm happy that what controls all this at the moment is "what is the market prepared to pay for an item" - we the consumers set the prices. We do it by comparing like with like, following fashions, deciding whether we could do it ourselves instead, etc, etc... We have a measure of freedom because of this. Yes, it's constrained by our personal buying power, but I haven't yet heard of an alternative that I actually like the sound of. So I personally don't want to see it changed - I believe that we mess with it at our peril.
And that's the reason why I personally have to say "good luck to them", even if I wish that certain products could be priced in a way that I might personally consider more affordable :lol:
Like Dave (TF) said earlier, we ain't going to agree on this one... but it is fun debating it :D
(Except I've now used most of my day off on the internet!!)
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well if i were in business i'd like to think i'd charge what it cost to produce the item- including things like wages, r&d, stuff like that (including any other inherent costs you can think of).
I'm not saying i'd mandate it or anything like that. I'm just saying that's what i'd do, and what I think other businesses should ideally do.
I just don't agree with charging what you think you can get away with. I just disagree with the principle of it.
Suppose, for the sake of argument, you have a guitar-making business. You work hard, get a good reputation, and after a while customers are coming and saying "I can't believe you're so cheap, Dave, your guitars are just as good as that Wez V and Feline but they charge loads more (rip-off bar-stewards! :wink: )".
Wouldn't you be tempted to increase those prices a bit, if the customers were happy to pay it? Just to give yourself a better standard of living and maybe a bit of a nest-egg? Or to protect the business itself against future hard times. It doesn't turn you into a robber baron. :P
Nothing wrong with idealism, but it seems to be cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Yep Phil, I'm with you.
Also, dave_mc thinks a £2000 PRS is overpriced. Do you know PRS' labour cost? Factory running costs? CNC investments? Advertising costs?
They may be more than you're wiling to pay, like Andy says, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're overpriced.
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Well, those running costs are low enough that they can sell them to their domestic market much, much cheaper ;)
They might not be overpriced in the states, but it's difficult to argue they aren't here. The same would go for lots of products in lots of industries, of course.
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I just spotted this in the bit Philly quoted:
I just don't agree with charging what you think you can get away with. I just disagree with the principle of it.
I didn't notice it before, Dave (mc).
You turned "how much you think people will pay" into "what you think you can get away with".
Which is fine, it almost means the same thing... But it does put a different slant on it... it implies a nefarious motive, and it loses some of the meaning.
Motive
The motive is actually making a profit. There's nothing nefarious about doing this! It's what we all have to do to survive on this planet. If we make less than we spent we're in trouble, if we only make as much as we spent then we might as well have sat on our hands that day and watched the clouds going by, waiting for something or someone to come along and take advantage of our inactivity. How am going to buy a guitar if I don't make a profit? How am I gonna buy my wife a nice dinner? How am I going to pay my ISP so's I can sit on here and waffle? How am I going to save for my old age when I can no longer work? If we're going to regard making a profit as a bad thing then we might as well call a halt now, we're wearing ourselves out for no reason at all.
Missing Meaning
I wrote "how much you think people will pay" because there's no point in asking for an amount that no-one's prepared to pay, it means people won't buy your thing. That meaning gets kind of lost if you convert it to a "what you think you can get away with" statement.
Granted, there must be folk that set their prices using the "what you can get away with" method. But it's kinda dangerous, it's a quick win strategy, it implies you don't believe the product itself will survive the market's scrutiny for more than a few months, so let's make a buck while we can. As an organisation, you're not going to have long term success if you consistently market products of this nature.
And to be honest, I still say "good luck to them"... the customers will find them out and depart in droves :lol:
Dave (TF), I'd say it stronger than that, I'd go as far as to say PRSs are not overpriced at all. There are dudes happily buying them and waving them about. If they were overpriced, people would not be buying them and they'd be going down the tubes.
Now, if you could do exactly the same job, get the same buzz as you do with your Modern Eagle using my Dano (£165 new it was) - then I'd wonder if you might have paid over the odds slightly. But you can't. In fact, I haven't got a guitar that does that job as far as I'm aware. Instead I might have paid almost as much for all my guitars. I have relatives who still can't get why I need more than one - so I've paid over the odds as well, from their perspective... :lol:
This price thing, on any goods or services, is all about personal perspective.
EDIT: nfe slips another one in while I'm typing! :lol:
Yeah, global markets... I don't really think this place was meant to be "one world, one vision" :lol:
But isn't it perspective here as well? They're only overpriced here when compared with over there. I don't even think about over there - so I'm just looking at the prices here. When I do think about it, it's "oh life's too short"!
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Well, those running costs are low enough that they can sell them to their domestic market much, much cheaper ;)
They might not be overpriced in the states, but it's difficult to argue they aren't here.
It's very easy to argue they aren't here nfe!
See the example in my earlier post - we're paying pretty much the same as the US for the new Studio model if you add in a bit extra for UK transport costs, customs paperwork etc
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=24492.msg323751#msg323751
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^ I was thinking that - but I don't know enough about PRS prices let alone comparing them overseas.
And btw Philly - just cos I'm siding with the PRS-owning stock brokers, estate agents, and minor landed-gentry here (:wink:)... it doesn't mean I'm giving in to any GAS for a PRS - don't expect any NGDs from me in the near future :lol:
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Well, those running costs are low enough that they can sell them to their domestic market much, much cheaper ;)
They might not be overpriced in the states, but it's difficult to argue they aren't here.
It's very easy to argue they aren't here nfe!
See the example in my earlier post - we're paying pretty much the same as the US for the new Studio model if you add in a bit extra for UK transport costs, customs paperwork etc
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=24492.msg323751#msg323751
You're looking at the cost of an individual consumer buying an individual guitar. Not a distributor buying 500. Those transport costs start go down a little bit per item, y'know?
Quite aside from not considering bulk discounts, quick payment discounts, sell or return deals...
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OK, I'm confused now, guys.
Obviously, I think, we're saying that if I could buy a PRS from a shop in the US, with my money, ruling out delivery for the moment, what we're saying is that I could get a lot more geetar for my money?
Is that what folks is saying?
What about salaries? How do they compare. If I moved to the US, am I taking a pay cut if I do a comparable job? I don't actually know, so I can't safely argue what I want to argue.
I'd like to know:
How many months wages does it take a UK person on average UK wage to buy a PRS at UK price.
How many months wages does it take a US person on average US wage to buy a PRS at US price.
Surely that's a better comparison?
I'd mebbe like to know this as well:
How many months wages does it take a UK person on average UK wage to buy a PRS at US price.
How many months wages does it take a US person on average US wage to buy a PRS at UK price.
I've got a nasty feeling I won't like the answer!
Anyway, this global village sh1t won't work until we sort that side of things out across the whole world - and I somehow don't think we will in my life time :lol:
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You're looking at the cost of an individual consumer buying an individual guitar. Not a distributor buying 500. Those transport costs start go down a little bit per item, y'know?
Quite aside from not considering bulk discounts, quick payment discounts, sell or return deals...
Yeah I know matey, but most of those things apply to each dealer on each side of the pond :)
Me as a consumer can buy from an authorised dealer in the US, or a dealer in the UK, within a few hundred quid. More dealers and consumers in the US overall will mean keener pricing and more competition - classic market forces at work. My example uses a very large US dealer with high turnover, versus a small dealer in the UK.
Taking that into account, if the UK price is only a few hundred quid more with the increased transport and custom costs, plus the larger margin required by the UK dealer due to fewer overall sales, I don't think that the UK prices right now are in any way out of line.
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That would be a good comparison. And I've no idea how it'd compare.
Then you've things like the cost of living in both nations and so on...
What kind of prices are gear in high tax/high cost of living nations like those in Scandinavia?
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Andy - you can't really use your comparison example as wages are generally higher in the US because they have to pay for medical care, have fewer holiday entitlements etc. It's not an apples with apples comparison.
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And btw Philly - just cos I'm siding with the PRS-owning stock brokers, estate agents, and minor landed-gentry here (:wink:)... it doesn't mean I'm giving in to any GAS for a PRS - don't expect any NGDs from me in the near future :lol:
Ah go on Andy, you know you want to!
I'm not expecting any maple 10 tops, just a nice Starla or Mira?
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I'd forgotten the medical care bit - and didn't know the others.
But it do kind of feed into my "perspective" thing anyway.
I'd actually be very surprised if I had the same spending power on a specific item X if I walked into a US or a UK shop. There's all sorts of factors involved, not the least being someone (me or the seller/distributor) has got to shift item X from one country to another.
Even for something like MacDonalds where I assume the stuff is resourced in the country that the shop is in, I'd expect the price of a Big Mac to reflect the spending power of Joe Average in that country. And I'd be looking at it through an exchange rate thinking "jeez have you seen the price of that compared to what it is in Tooting..."
I still think the only sensible way of pricing your stuff is to establish what the punters will pay and charge that. If you move into other territories you'll have to make sure the extra costs are covered, but set a price based on the territory's spending power - you'd be daft to do anything else. Now we're getting all global, I guess that's kinda upsetting it a bit.
(Disclaimer: I have not been in MacDonalds for many many years, I've not even been in the one in Tooting, and I've been living here 10 years... I just felt I needed to get that out...)
(MMmmmm Big Mac, do they still taste the same? I could just do one now :lol:)
No Philly, I looked at Mira/Starla whatever it was the other week - didn't grab me at all. Actually Dave's ME is the sexiest looking PRS model I've come across... still no stirrings in the loins though :lol: (I'd rather have a Big Mac!)
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(a) Yeah it seems I am saying that, doesn't it! :lol:
Not quite what I meant to get across, though it does follow from what I wrote. (I got a bit distracted and kept coming back to it... there was a "devil's advocate" approach in there somewhere, but I'm buggered if I can figure out what I was doing now...)
All I'm really trying to say is that as a consumer I don't personally feel I have any input on it other than my "yes I'll pay that, no I won't pay that". And I'm more than happy with that state of affairs. I don't want to be able to impose anything on the folks that make or distribute stuff - what they want to charge is up to them as far as I'm concerned. They get my business or they don't.
(b) I also never quite see it when folks talk about "firms talking people into buying stuff even if it's overpriced" - yes, the marketing, same as the media, same as what we're doing right now posting on the web, yes all this helps form buyers opinions... but no firm can talk someone into buying something that's overpriced, the consumers that buy the things do it to themselves. No-one's forcing me to buy a Rolex, or PRS, or whatever.... And, indeed, I'm very unlikely to. I personally don't believe that these items are overpriced, they just cost more than they're worth to me personally.
Yes, I do feel sorry for companies that go under because they can't compete. But that is the way of the world, if you've not got a viable business, then you've not got one, sorry... (and I've worked for one or two... I strongly suspect that I'm working for one now and have been the past 11 years, but my job is safe for at least another year or two, and has been all that time)
What I was actually trying to hint at in that bit was that if we were to force everyone to sell at "cost" we guarantee that those people will go out of business and that we would lose a lot of talented people and products. In guitar terms, a PRS or Gibson limited to cost will be way cheaper than one built by the talented luthier in the next village. The quality of the finished products will still vary by only a small margin, and it turns out the cheaper one, half the price, a third even, is the famous and fashionable one! I wonder what the masses will buy? How is a newcomer ever going to break into that market? We'll be stuck with the big businesses that already exist and we'll all have to sell our souls to them if we want a job or products.
I was also trying to hint that if, say, Gibson (I'm guessing, I know nothing about their finances and business models) turned round and sold at cost, they'd be telling you that they were doing it because you asked them to. But that isn't why they'd be doing it at all, they'd be trying to talk you into buying their products for that reason, but they'd be doing it to steal market share at the expense of their competitors.
Nah... I'm happy that what controls all this at the moment is "what is the market prepared to pay for an item" - we the consumers set the prices. We do it by comparing like with like, following fashions, deciding whether we could do it ourselves instead, etc, etc... We have a measure of freedom because of this. Yes, it's constrained by our personal buying power, but I haven't yet heard of an alternative that I actually like the sound of. So I personally don't want to see it changed - I believe that we mess with it at our peril.
And that's the reason why I personally have to say "good luck to them", even if I wish that certain products could be priced in a way that I might personally consider more affordable :lol:
Like Dave (TF) said earlier, we ain't going to agree on this one... but it is fun debating it :D
(Except I've now used most of my day off on the internet!!)
(a) :lol: yeah I mean I didn't want to put words in your mouth (as it annoys me when people do that to me), and was scared that i'd just skimmed your post and got the wrong end of the stick, but that's just what taking your post to its logical conclusion seemed to suggest.
No worries on the devil's advocate thing, I do it all the time. I should also point out that a lot of what I'm saying is "in principle", rather than necessarily "in practice". While I have many problems with capitalism, I certainly don't want to live under soviet style communism/state capitalism either.
(b) I dunno. I agree that no-one is holding a gun to anyone's head, but there certainly is a lot of psychology at play in advertising. Yes, it's a "free" choice, but it depends on how you define "freedom" and it gets very complicated very quickly.
Funnily enough, what you're saying about the big guns versus the smaller guys actually does affect me, since I'm willing to look outside the more established names... if anything I'm getting a good deal out of the current system because I can get a lot of stuff cheaper because not as many people want it. :lol:
I just don't agree with charging what you think you can get away with. I just disagree with the principle of it.
Suppose, for the sake of argument, you have a guitar-making business. You work hard, get a good reputation, and after a while customers are coming and saying "I can't believe you're so cheap, Dave, your guitars are just as good as that Wez V and Feline but they charge loads more (rip-off bar-stewards! :wink: )".
Wouldn't you be tempted to increase those prices a bit, if the customers were happy to pay it? Just to give yourself a better standard of living and maybe a bit of a nest-egg? Or to protect the business itself against future hard times. It doesn't turn you into a robber baron. :P
Nothing wrong with idealism, but it seems to be cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I'm pretty sure if anyone ever saw me using tools they wouldn't be saying that :lol:
But yeah, I mean I dunno. Look at paul C who makes the timmy. His waiting list is out the wazoo, and (as far as i'm aware) he hasn't really raised his prices much. Certainly some people do it. I know what you mean about buffering yourself against harder times, but if you are that cheap you're probably gonna have a pretty decent waiting list, so you're gonna know how well you're doing for the next while.
Obviously all that's in theory, lol.
Well, those running costs are low enough that they can sell them to their domestic market much, much cheaper ;)
They might not be overpriced in the states, but it's difficult to argue they aren't here. The same would go for lots of products in lots of industries, of course.
+1
I'm not saying PRS are overpriced everywhere. I'm saying they're overpriced in the UK.
I just spotted this in the bit Philly quoted:
I just don't agree with charging what you think you can get away with. I just disagree with the principle of it.
I didn't notice it before, Dave (mc).
You turned "how much you think people will pay" into "what you think you can get away with".
Which is fine, it almost means the same thing... But it does put a different slant on it... it implies a nefarious motive, and it loses some of the meaning.
Motive
The motive is actually making a profit. There's nothing nefarious about doing this! It's what we all have to do to survive on this planet. If we make less than we spent we're in trouble, if we only make as much as we spent then we might as well have sat on our hands that day and watched the clouds going by, waiting for something or someone to come along and take advantage of our inactivity. How am going to buy a guitar if I don't make a profit? How am I gonna buy my wife a nice dinner? How am I going to pay my ISP so's I can sit on here and waffle? How am I going to save for my old age when I can no longer work? If we're going to regard making a profit as a bad thing then we might as well call a halt now, we're wearing ourselves out for no reason at all.
Missing Meaning
I wrote "how much you think people will pay" because there's no point in asking for an amount that no-one's prepared to pay, it means people won't buy your thing. That meaning gets kind of lost if you convert it to a "what you think you can get away with" statement.
Granted, there must be folk that set their prices using the "what you can get away with" method. But it's kinda dangerous, it's a quick win strategy, it implies you don't believe the product itself will survive the market's scrutiny for more than a few months, so let's make a buck while we can. As an organisation, you're not going to have long term success if you consistently market products of this nature.
And to be honest, I still say "good luck to them"... the customers will find them out and depart in droves :lol:
Dave (TF), I'd say it stronger than that, I'd go as far as to say PRSs are not overpriced at all. There are dudes happily buying them and waving them about. If they were overpriced, people would not be buying them and they'd be going down the tubes.
Now, if you could do exactly the same job, get the same buzz as you do with your Modern Eagle using my Dano (£165 new it was) - then I'd wonder if you might have paid over the odds slightly. But you can't. In fact, I haven't got a guitar that does that job as far as I'm aware. Instead I might have paid almost as much for all my guitars. I have relatives who still can't get why I need more than one - so I've paid over the odds as well, from their perspective... :lol:
This price thing, on any goods or services, is all about personal perspective.
EDIT: nfe slips another one in while I'm typing! :lol:
Yeah, global markets... I don't really think this place was meant to be "one world, one vision" :lol:
But isn't it perspective here as well? They're only overpriced here when compared with over there. I don't even think about over there - so I'm just looking at the prices here. When I do think about it, it's "oh life's too short"!
i think that depends on your definition of "profit". I don't really count your wage/salary as profit- if you do, then that changes things a bit.
I'm certainly not expecting people to work for nothing.
I don't want to quote any more or to make this any longer (LOL) but dave/twinfan is right when he says it's very, very hard to compare wages and living conditions in the US and UK since the conditions are very different.
Oh and is this a bad time to say that I should maybe check what prs prices actually are in the US? :lol:
gotta go for dinner now but will check that later. :D
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I'm not saying PRS are overpriced everywhere. I'm saying they're overpriced in the UK.
Based on what exactly, Dave? Neither you (nor nfe) have given any evidence to support this opinion.
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well nfe said that you could buy one retail in the US for less than a shop here could buy one wholesale...
I just mean compared to the prices they go for in the USA (and obviously factoring in stuff like VAT etc.). As far as I'm concerned, any product is (probably) going to be cheapest in the country in which it's produced. All those other things like postage, needing to set up distributor networks etc. cost money, but they don't really add any value for the customer.
That's all I mean- nothing more complicated than that. If a PRS costs the equivalent of £1500 in the US and costs £2500 here, then by my (layman's) definition, that means it's overpriced, because VAT and postage should only bring that up to ~£1900 or so.
MF has a 25th anniversary custom 24 for $2800, and the same guitar (i think) on dv247 is £2500... a swamp ash special is $2300 and £2200..
Funnily enough the discontinued mira and starla xes were (still are) incredibly cheap on dv247... actually cheaper than in the USA, I think. I was very close to buying one except i didn't think it was the best choice for the tones i wanted... :lol:
obviously there are other factors at play too, like if only PRS makes guitars the way you like them, then you sorta have to pay it, and that's fair enough, I would agree wholeheartedly that in that case you should just get the PRS if you won't be happy unless you do. but if (like me) you're pretty easy as long as it's a good guitar, then normally the stuff built closer to home is better value.
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i think that depends on your definition of "profit". I don't really count your wage/salary as profit- if you do, then that changes things a bit.
I was kind of thinking "profit" in that bit as "wage/salary" for the day minus "running costs" to keep the body alive for the next day. I was thinking of the running costs as including taxes because they are required of the individual, commuting costs to get you to work and back, essential food, housing costs, water bill, energy bill for light and heat, basic clothes and hygiene.
Anything else - phones, tv licence, alcohol, music, books, fancy cosmetics, energy bills for running any of them, and then the things I did mention, I was ruling out as luxuries not essential to keep the "business" of a human being afloat and ready for trading the next day. These have to come out of the profit.
Not a perfect image, obviously, but that was how I was thinking. Partly because it illustrated to me how "huge" a profit I make everyday, and I usually regard myself as scr@ping along and not taking too much advantage of anyone else! :lol:
And this was just classic:
Oh and is this a bad time to say that I should maybe check what prs prices actually are in the US? :lol:
:lol:
I'm not even that familiar with UK prices! I think this thread is probably going to turn into a classic example of Internet-Knowledge. A bunch of idiots arguing a bunch of stuff based on hearsay and assumptions made about what other people have said.
NOTE TO INNOCENT PASSERS-BY READING THIS THREAD IN 2016: Some of the participants on this thread have no idea what they are talking about, do not accept anything you read as established fact... :lol:
And I reckon Dave might have you this one:
I'm not saying PRS are overpriced everywhere. I'm saying they're overpriced in the UK.
Based on what exactly, Dave? Neither you (nor nfe) have given any evidence to support this opinion.
:lol:
I'm sure you'll find something to offer him though :lol:
EDIT: Oh bum! You have already :lol: (I'll read it now...)
EDIT2: No, fail, that's not good enough he's closing in on you... mate in four moves I reckon :lol:
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(a) I was kind of thinking "profit" in that bit as "wage/salary" for the day minus "running costs" to keep the body alive for the next day. I was thinking of the running costs as including taxes because they are required of the individual, commuting costs to get you to work and back, essential food, housing costs, water bill, energy bill for light and heat, basic clothes and hygiene.
Anything else - phones, tv licence, alcohol, music, books, fancy cosmetics, energy bills for running any of them, and then the things I did mention, I was ruling out as luxuries not essential to keep the "business" of a human being afloat and ready for trading the next day. These have to come out of the profit.
Not a perfect image, obviously, but that was how I was thinking. Partly because it illustrated to me how "huge" a profit I make everyday, and I usually regard myself as scr@ping along and not taking too much advantage of anyone else! :lol:
(b) And this was just classic:
Oh and is this a bad time to say that I should maybe check what prs prices actually are in the US? :lol:
:lol:
(c) I'm not even that familiar with UK prices! I think this thread is probably going to turn into a classic example of Internet-Knowledge. A bunch of idiots arguing a bunch of stuff based on hearsay and assumptions made about what other people have said.
NOTE TO INNOCENT PASSERS-BY READING THIS THREAD IN 2016: Some of the participants on this thread have no idea what they are talking about, do not accept anything you read as established fact... :lol:
And I reckon Dave might have you this one:
I'm not saying PRS are overpriced everywhere. I'm saying they're overpriced in the UK.
Based on what exactly, Dave? Neither you (nor nfe) have given any evidence to support this opinion.
:lol:
I'm sure you'll find something to offer him though :lol:
(c) EDIT: Oh bum! You have already :lol: (I'll read it now...)
(d) EDIT2: No, fail, that's not good enough he's closing in on you... mate in four moves I reckon :lol:
(a) ah, that's pretty much why we're arguing, then :lol: I consider profit to be the bit that the owners/shareholders/partners in the business take out once they've paid all the costs required to keep the business running. the dividend that shares would pay you.
I think we're basically on the same page, just using different terminology/definitions :) I'm certainly not saying for a second that once you've covered your food and board that you should get no more pay :lol:
(b) yeah i thought you guys might like that. :lol: Problem is I checked all these prices ages ago, but prices change. But I think they're still in the same ballpark as what I originally though, so crisis averted :lol: With a quick calculation, and taking VAT and a rough postage assumption of ~£100, you'd be saving around £400-£500 on those PRSes I posted.
(c) :lol:
(d) :x
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I'm not saying PRS are overpriced everywhere. I'm saying they're overpriced in the UK.
Based on what exactly, Dave? Neither you (nor nfe) have given any evidence to support this opinion.
As Dave has mentioned, I think my first post in this thread is evidence. If a punter in the UK can buy a PRS cheaper by importing it from the US cheaper than a retailer can buy one from their distributer here (even if it's by pennies), then they're overpriced here (or, you might argue, underpriced in the US).
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Sorry, I wasn't clear again Dave (mc) - I was treating a human being like a business. Money In - Costs = Profit.
What I'm saying is, our disposable income is our profit. A business is the same, the profit is their disposable income. We see no reason (or I don't anyway :lol:) in limiting the disposable income an individual can aspire to, so why should we limit the same for a company?
I still reckon Dave (TF) is closing in on you - we might be more verbose and rattle off from the heart etc... but he always seems to have a bit more air of authority in his arguments... I reckon he's gonna trump you on what I've seen so far :lol:
(Not prepared to put money on it though!)
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Crikey, there are some long posts in this thread! :lol: :lol:
It may hold the prodigious posts record.
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Neither nfe or dave_mc have convinced me yet :lol:
OK, so the prices aren't identical in the US vs UK, but with currency fluctuations and the increased cost of getting guitars over here that's never going to be the case. Within a few hundred quid is pretty close, and maybe technically "overpriced", but close enough and reasonable in my eyes. Remember my margins comment from earlier too - US dealers sell more units for a smaller profit on each item. The reverse is true here in the UK.
nfe and dave_mc seem to be implying PRS' are up to £1000 over the US price here, which clearly isn't the case.
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(to andy) I dunno... I mean how do you argue against, "anything is worth what its purchaser will pay"?
I mean that's sort of circular logic, lol. While I'd agree that there's definitely some subjectivity in there, I would say there's also an objective component too. Much like music or food taste- while there's no accounting for taste, it wouldn't be too hard to make a dish or song that no-one liked, lol.
Maybe I'm not as authoritative because dave's coming from the more extreme "they're worth it if people will pay it" argument whereas I'm coming from the more compromised, "I agree with that to a certain extent, but taken to extremes that's silly, I think there's also an objective component to prices". I'm not saying Dave's wrong because his opinion is from one extreme of the argument (as the correct answer can be anywhere along the continuum from one extreme to the other, inclusive), but that could give rise to my appearing less "authoritative".
I mean, by saying "stuff is worth what people will pay", that means house prices were correct just before the boom went bust. That can't be right, surely?
^ (dave) they may have been last time I checked- prices in the US have gone up a fair bit recently because of the weak dollar. But there was about ~£500 difference after I'd taken VAT and postage into account- which is a fair enough thing to do, I'd agree. Comparing the actual price you'd pay in the US versus the price here, it's close to £1k.
I would say the margins thing could go either way- while I'd agree they sell more in america, they'd sell more here if they were cheaper. I accept jpf's point that some people are buying them precisely because they're expensive as a status symbol, but I don't think there are anywhere near as many people doing that as people who are not buying them because they can't afford them. Apart from anything, if that were true, their next move should be to instantly raise prices in the USA :lol:
I would have no problem agreeing that the difference in prices between the US and the UK falls within the range of subjectivity as to whether they're over-priced or not, if you have no problem agreeing to that. :)
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^ (dave) they may have been last time I checked- prices in the US have gone up a fair bit recently because of the weak dollar. But there was about ~£500 difference after I'd taken VAT and postage into account- which is a fair enough thing to do, I'd agree. Comparing the actual price you'd pay in the US versus the price here, it's close to £1k.
I still don't think you're seeing the point Dave. They can't actually sell them huge amounts cheaper as prices here in the UK at dealers include our 20% VAT and 3.7% import duty, plus the transport costs and administration fees. You can't compare that to a price in the US that only includes an 8% or less sales tax.
If you want to buy in the US and bring it into the country illegally (avoiding taxes) to save money then that's your choice, but you can't use that as an argument to say that PRS or Gibson guitars here in the UK are seriously overpriced.
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I've just realised, one of the reasons I joined the discussion is that I strongly believe the following:
- It's the right of a seller to ask whatever price they like
- It's the right of the buyer to walk away
and I haven't actually said that that clearly anywhere!
After that, I very much believe that a thing is only actually worth what someone will pay for it.
For example, there was talk a while back of second-hand PRSs (coincidentally) taking a nose-dive. A seller can sit on his concept of a book-price, what they were going for last week, as much as he likes, but if he can't shift it for that, the thing just ain't worth that much at the moment - you cannot convert it to that much cash. It's only worth what you can get for it.
By the same argument, the house prices were correct until all the prospective buyers went sod-off it's too much, I'm waiting until you drop your prices and I can afford them. House prices have to come down when that happens.
Now, if Mr Smith can't sell the guitars he needs to at the price he's going for now - he will need to drop his prices as well (simplified I know - another option is put them up). The price before the change is correct, and so is the price after.
And this thread has done one thing for me - I'm now convinced that we're being slightly premature in expecting the price in one marketplace to be comparable to that in another marketplace. Just because we can see the prices that Mr US is charged on the internet doesn't mean we can expect the same prices for Mr UK. They are completely different markets that do not operate together at the moment. There are too many factors involved including average disposable income, taxes and duties, demand and fashionability of the item in the territory, etc, etc...
When it comes down to it though, it's still the supplier's perogative (in my mind anyway) to run his business as he sees fit. He's probably watching stuff like this going "Jeez guys, I'm doing my best to get the thing to you at what I believe to be a fair price, if you want it, buy it, if not, don't..."
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^ (dave) they may have been last time I checked- prices in the US have gone up a fair bit recently because of the weak dollar. But there was about ~£500 difference after I'd taken VAT and postage into account- which is a fair enough thing to do, I'd agree. Comparing the actual price you'd pay in the US versus the price here, it's close to £1k.
I still don't think you're seeing the point Dave. They can't actually sell them huge amounts cheaper as prices here in the UK at dealers include our 20% VAT and 3.7% import duty, plus the transport costs and administration fees. You can't compare that to a price in the US that only includes an 8% or less sales tax.
If you want to buy in the US and bring it into the country illegally (avoiding taxes) to save money then that's your choice, but you can't use that as an argument to say that PRS or Gibson guitars here in the UK are seriously overpriced.
But the point was that it's possible to import a guitar to the UK (legally, paying all taxes) cheaper than a DEALER in the UK can buy one. Dealers in the UK don't make much markup, but either the distributor has a huge one, or PRS charge significantly higher prices to overseas distributors.
Or at least that was the case as of around March 2008, I haven't paid a great deal of attention since.
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But the point was that it's possible to import a guitar to the UK (legally, paying all taxes) cheaper than a DEALER in the UK can buy one. Dealers in the UK don't make much markup, but either the distributor has a huge one, or PRS charge significantly higher prices to overseas distributors.
Or at least that was the case as of around March 2008, I haven't paid a great deal of attention since.
Not true any more, I don't think.
I haven't spent hours on calculations, but yes, I do believe you can currently import (including all taxes etc) for somewhat less than the UK selling price. Twinfan did some numbers way back in the mists of time at the start of this thread. But that can't be less than the dealer price, unless their markup is as tight as a gnat's chuff.
But again, this isn't unique to PRS. For years, any (US-made) guitar that costs $1,000 in the US has cost £1,000 in the UK (give or take). And that seems to be pretty constant despite some huge fluctuations in exchange rates.
Does that mean guitars are "overpriced" in the UK? Or is it just the way the market works, and has for a very long time?
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^ I'm not sure, philly. I don't know about guitars, but for amps, there definitely are some differences between the brands. A mesa recto goes for around $1500 in the US (last time I checked, anyway- it's probably gone up a bit now but i doubt it's any more than $2k, it's very hard to find mesa prices online in the US). The price in the UK is more like £2k. If you then look at, say, a Fryette, a sig x in the UK is ~£1650, while in the USA it's $2249 (~£1350). I would also point out (I could be wrong) that I would have strong suspicions that Mesa sells a lot more amps in the UK than Fryette does, so the whole "smaller market" thing arguably doesn't apply either. Unless, I guess, Fryette expects to sell so few amps in the UK that it doesn't even really have a distribution thing set up and if something does go wrong it has to be sent back to the US....
I still don't think you're seeing the point Dave. They can't actually sell them huge amounts cheaper as prices here in the UK at dealers include our 20% VAT and 3.7% import duty, plus the transport costs and administration fees. You can't compare that to a price in the US that only includes an 8% or less sales tax.
If you want to buy in the US and bring it into the country illegally (avoiding taxes) to save money then that's your choice, but you can't use that as an argument to say that PRS or Gibson guitars here in the UK are seriously overpriced.
I never said I wanted to bring them in illegally. I said after taking VAT and postage (here) etc. into account they were about £500 cheaper in the US. That's still a fair whack, though admittedly not the ~£1k that my original posts may have implied. I only made mention of the US price, without VAT/customs/postage charges, as an interesting aside.
After that, I very much believe that a thing is only actually worth what someone will pay for it.
For example, there was talk a while back of second-hand PRSs (coincidentally) taking a nose-dive. A seller can sit on his concept of a book-price, what they were going for last week, as much as he likes, but if he can't shift it for that, the thing just ain't worth that much at the moment - you cannot convert it to that much cash. It's only worth what you can get for it.
By the same argument, the house prices were correct until all the prospective buyers went sod-off it's too much, I'm waiting until you drop your prices and I can afford them. House prices have to come down when that happens.
Now, if Mr Smith can't sell the guitars he needs to at the price he's going for now - he will need to drop his prices as well (simplified I know - another option is put them up). The price before the change is correct, and so is the price after.
And this thread has done one thing for me - I'm now convinced that we're being slightly premature in expecting the price in one marketplace to be comparable to that in another marketplace. Just because we can see the prices that Mr US is charged on the internet doesn't mean we can expect the same prices for Mr UK. They are completely different markets that do not operate together at the moment. There are too many factors involved including average disposable income, taxes and duties, demand and fashionability of the item in the territory, etc, etc...
When it comes down to it though, it's still the supplier's perogative (in my mind anyway) to run his business as he sees fit. He's probably watching stuff like this going "Jeez guys, I'm doing my best to get the thing to you at what I believe to be a fair price, if you want it, buy it, if not, don't..."
Oh, I agree that something's only worth what someone will pay for it- if you're talking about something having value on paper. If I have a guitar and claim it's worth £2k but no-one will actually give me £2k, then I agree that it's not worth £2k :lol: By that I mean that the minimum value of something is set by what someone will pay- if I claim something is worth a certain price yet can't find a buyer willing to pay that price then it probably isn't worth that.
But that's a bit different from what we're talking about in this thread- where you *can* find a buyer willing to pay it (for whatever reason), but where you (personally) are not convinced it's worth the price (again, for whatever reason).
Now, granted, we could all just say, "If you think it's worth it, pay it, and if you don't, don't." (I actually don't have a gigantic problem with that statement, FWIW) But that's no fun :lol:
[FWIW I don't think the housing market collapsed because the consumers suddenly became rational and sensible- credit dried up overnight. :lol: If there were easy credit and 125% mortgages like there were in 2007 I could easily see the housing market going back to the bubble it was. :lol: Again, if anything, that backs up my point where I said that higher prices would lead to decreased demand if that increased price led to lots of people simply being unable to afford the product, regardless of how much they actually wanted to buy it.]
My point is when something is going for a different price in a different territory, and where, legally, if the manufacturer would allow it, I could import it paying all applicable taxes and retail shipping rates for much less than I can buy it in my own country, that, to me, means that that product is very expensive in my own country.
You mentioned different supply and demand and fashionability in different territories- that's a good point. As jpf touched on much earlier in this thread, to me the fashionability/demand is too much tied up in the retail price to be really considered as a separate item... as I mentioned earlier in this thread, on the more UK-centric forums I post on, mesas are considered boutique, whereas on the US-centred forums I post on, they're not. Pretty much only due to the price and (imagined?) value or (imagined?) lack of value inferred by the customer in that territory because of the price.
My big problem about saying "Prices are right because the market price can't be wrong" is that it doesn't really tell you anything useful. To me a scientific theory doesn't really mean much unless it's fasifiable.
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Now we're getting somewhere :)
Using my example from before, the difference on a new PRS Studio is:
UK = £2749
US (minus Kentucky sales tax, where Wilcutts is based) = ((1935/1.06 + 75(?) shipping)*1.037)*1.2 = £2365
A £384 difference, but I don't think the sales tax can be deducted in Kentucky? Therefore it's probably:
UK = £2749
US = (£1935+£75)*1.037*1.2 = £2501
£248 difference
There's no way a UK shop pays £2500 for the Studio, as only taking the VAT off makes it £2291.
So nfe can't be right. And £248 isn't that big of a difference in my eyes given the decreased risk of transporting it across the pond, and the ability to actually try the guitar before buying, which counters Dave's "very expensive in my country" statement.
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As I said, I may not be correct now, I WAS right when I checked, I don't have access to such figures now, and I'd have gotten the sack had I posted them about the internet at the time.
You've also got odd deals and that to take into account and need to look at a broad range of the catalogue obviously.
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Now we're getting somewhere :)
Using my example from before, the difference on a new PRS Studio is:
UK = £2749
US (minus Kentucky sales tax, where Wilcutts is based) = ((1935/1.06 + 75(?) shipping)*1.037)*1.2 = £2365
A £384 difference, but I don't think the sales tax can be deducted in Kentucky? Therefore it's probably:
UK = £2749
US = (£1935+£75)*1.037*1.2 = £2501
£248 difference
There's no way a UK shop pays £2500 for the Studio, as only taking the VAT off makes it £2291.
So nfe can't be right. And £248 isn't that big of a difference in my eyes given the decreased risk of transporting it across the pond, and the ability to actually try the guitar before buying, which counters Dave's "very expensive in my country" statement.
Yup £248, on something that expensive, is well within the range of "If you think it's worth saving that, then go for it, but if not, that'd also be an easily justified judgement call". I normally work on the 10% principle... if i can get it locally (with all the increased customer safety etc. that that provides), and the price is within 10% of the cheapest online price (from an online store I trust) then I'd normally do it... that saving is just about sneaking in there.
As I said, though, the prices of the couple I checked were more like £400... which again, you could justify either way, but £400 is getting to a fair whack (I didn't take off any sales tax from the US price, I think the prices I saw didn't include any tax? :? ). And £400-£500 on a ~£2k guitar is getting on for 20-25%...
and as nfe says, you have to look at the full catalogue... those starla and mira xes are actually cheaper here, lol, but they're definitely an anomaly. I wonder did dv247 buy up a whole load of stock cheap once they found out they'd been discontinued?
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... those starla and mira xes are actually cheaper here, lol, but they're definitely an anomaly. I wonder did dv247 buy up a whole load of stock cheap once they found out they'd been discontinued?
I suspect that's exactly what they did. And a very good deal it was! :wink:
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Indeed - cheap as chips they were! :D
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why the winky smiley philly? Did you get one? :lol:
I have to admit I was very close... the bundle with the little vox ac4 was even better value... :lol:
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why the winky smiley philly? Did you get one? :lol:
It's possible...... :lol:
I had a look on their site last night, they still have quite a few left, surprisingly (I guess I am the only person who likes those designs!)
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DV have a Mira for £730.00 .... http://www.dv247.com/b-stock/prs-mira-electric-guitar-vintage-mahogany-moons-b-stock--86085
Looks nice actually, more understated than the usual PRS.
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If you can live with the fact it's "B Stock", that's a lot of guitar for £730.
There's a lot of debate on this thread about PRS prices, but even at its usual UK price a Mira is great value compared with, say, an SG Standard.
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If you can live with the fact it's "B Stock", that's a lot of guitar for £730.
There's a lot of debate on this thread about PRS prices, but even at its usual UK price a Mira is great value compared with, say, an SG Standard.
I think its just a guitar that was returned, so they can't sell it as 'new' anymore.
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It's possible...... :lol:
I had a look on their site last night, they still have quite a few left, surprisingly (I guess I am the only person who likes those designs!)
:lol:
Yeah they still have a fair few left... if I change my mind. Not likely... i'd be using it for more downtuned stuff if I did get it (and the short scale isn't really ideal for that), and although I complain about PRS prices I actually prefer the looks of the ones with the fancy tops :lol: I don't dislike PRS because they look too bling, I dislike the fact that they cost too much bling :lol: I'd really only be getting it because it's a very good deal, and I'm kinda getting sick of buying guitars because they're a killer deal that I feel I can't pass rather than because I actually want them :lol:
That mira's good value, but I guess it depends on why it's b-stock... some things are considered b-stock for only very minor things, but in other cases I'd be staying clear...
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The description says the Mira has a "small dent on the top of the body". But it also says "Not Original Box"..... hopefully that doesn't mean they somehow "lost" the PRS case. :?
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yeah...
it's one of those things that if you lived near the shop (assuming it's not just available online), if you could go and check it out, it might be worth considering, but I'd be very wary of getting it without getting to check it out...
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[quote author=AndyR link=topic=24492.msg324184#msg324184 date=1306511926
Even for something like MacDonalds where I assume the stuff is resourced in the country that the shop is in, I'd expect the price of a Big Mac to reflect the spending power of Joe Average in that country. And I'd be looking at it through an exchange rate thinking "jeez have you seen the price of that compared to what it is in Tooting..."
[/quote]
The Economist uses the "Big Mac Index" as a method of assessing the relative value of currencies:
http://www.economist.com/markets/Bigmac/Index.cfm
Perhaps we should try recalculating PRS prices in Big Macs........
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^ I think howard/alexander dumble already does that with his amps... :lol:
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DV have a Mira for £730.00 .... http://www.dv247.com/b-stock/prs-mira-electric-guitar-vintage-mahogany-moons-b-stock--86085
Looks nice actually, more understated than the usual PRS.
reckon this would support a floyd rose being installed? (thinking neck-angle here) ?????
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But it also says "Not Original Box"..... hopefully that doesn't mean they somehow "lost" the PRS case. :?
I have a brand new PRS case if anyone needs one (along with some phase 2 PRS tuners and a set of Dragon 2 pickups - did a major overhaul of a brand new PRS and traded in some bits)
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DV have a Mira for £730.00 .... http://www.dv247.com/b-stock/prs-mira-electric-guitar-vintage-mahogany-moons-b-stock--86085
Looks nice actually, more understated than the usual PRS.
reckon this would support a floyd rose being installed? (thinking neck-angle here) ?????
No, I don't think it would work. There is a slight neck angle, the PRS wraptail bridge sits quite low but I think a Floyd would be a similar height. Problem is that the body's quite thin, like an SG, so I very much doubt it would support a rear spring cavity. You could use a Kahler though, no problem.
Anyway, what am I saying? Why butcher such a nice guitar with a wanky trem? :x :P