Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Mr. Air on September 22, 2011, 08:31:08 AM
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I'm thinking about getting an ISP Decimator pedal. Any love for these noise reduction machines out there?
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i have one - its good, but i think the latest version of the MXR one is quite a bit better (though harder to use)
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Built one a couple of days ago. Simple to use, very effective, quite transparent. Impressive thing.
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love mine, and i think it's a lot better than the ns2 (other than the fact you can put the ns2 in the loop and in front at the same time, you need the g-string version of the decimator for that which is £££), though i haven't tried the mxr one gwem's talking about.
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I'm in doubt between the ISP and MXR myself. I like MXR in general (my pedalboard is fully MXR, except for the power supply and tuner) so I suppose the Smart Gate would be a no-brainer. But they have that new one, which is slightly cheaper yet seem to do more. And the ISP is reputed to be the best noise gate out there.
I used the NS2 for years, because I didn't know any better. Talk about a tone killer... :?
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I use the ProRackG version of the decimator and am very happy with it - excellent piece of kit!
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Built one a couple of days ago. Simple to use, very effective, quite transparent. Impressive thing.
You know you aren't really allowed to just stop there man. Did you build the MXR or the ISP? Can you share a PCB layout and/or schematic? :D :D :D
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Built one a couple of days ago. Simple to use, very effective, quite transparent. Impressive thing.
You know you aren't really allowed to just stop there man. Did you build the MXR or the ISP? Can you share a PCB layout and/or schematic? :D :D :D
I was just about to ask the exact same thing!
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It's been reverse engineered on DIYSB (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=88902.0). I built the one that Galego did without the board mounted stuff on page 7. You can see my board on page 14 where we try and figure out why it didn't work. I then fettled his docs to include all the changes to spark it into life and they're here (http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/schematics/ISP/) and verified ;)
Big board. Gonna be an interesting one to box up. But well worth the build.
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The THAT 2181C IC is available at Farnell for around £4.00. Everything else is pennies.
If any of you guys need the correct transistors I've got some spares I can let you have.
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HOLY shite THANK YOU!!! I thought you were gonna post up the MXR, to be honest! I recently obtained a co-worker who's wife works for a PCB prototyping/designing company here locally. Oh man..... LOL. I am so gonna put that in a rack as damn soon as I can, maybe couple it with a tweaked Tubescreamer and a compressor. The ultimate pre-preamp device.
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HOLY shitee THANK YOU!!! I thought you were gonna post up the MXR, to be honest! I recently obtained a co-worker who's wife works for a PCB prototyping/designing company here locally. Oh man..... LOL. I am so gonna put that in a rack as damn soon as I can, maybe couple it with a tweaked Tubescreamer and a compressor. The ultimate pre-preamp device.
if you get some PCBs made up I'd buy one off you mate.
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Will do. We're not talking about boards that need to withstand amplifier voltages, so they won't be expensive. I think I'd be asking for more in shipping than the PCB itself and I'd probably let that slide. My co-worker(with the sweet wife) wants a few too so he can do a rack version with one gate for before the amp and another for in the loop. I'm thinking I'm gonna be buying a few sheets with 6 or 8 units per. I have to get the e-mail with the files sent off now that I'm home from work and I'll get an answer about when and how much later on. If I'm going to ship one off to the U.K., I might as well ship a bunch. Let me see about it first and then we can see how many and what that's gonna cost an individual.
But I do need permission from the creator of the board to do this. I won't make a single cent(because it would make me feel dirty), but it's important for the one who did the real work to sign off on a mini non-profit production run.
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They're out in the DIY community. I suppose if you're not flogging them commercially, it'll be fine. The dude who did it was Galego over on DIYSB. Look for the Decimator reverse engineer thread. There are other versions on there, but the only one I've built is the one I've linked above.
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I would like to point out here that the guys at ISP were extremely helpful, and I was very happy to let them have my cash for the decimator ProRackG. I'm not sure I approve of DIYing something like this so specifically (and so soon after its release...?) I don't know the legal standpoint, but certainly on the moral side, it's shady. IMHO of course.
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It is only shady if you are going to DIY it and sell it and undercut the owner.
if you are doing it for personal interest and a general fun project that you can learn from i don't see a problem with it
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It is only shady if you are going to DIY it and sell it and undercut the owner.
if you are doing it for personal interest and a general fun project that you can learn from i don't see a problem with it
The difficulty comes when you then reproduce the blueprints (essentially) and distribute those. At what point is putting what is pretty much proprietary information in the public domain okay? I would suggest that while a patent is still in effect, that's not okay from a moral or legal standpoint. I haven't looked into this specifically (this case in particular, the law or what other people think about it), I'm just voicing my concerns, because where people do a good job, treat their customers well and are genuinely decent people - as is definitely my experience of ISP technologies - I'd like to be a person who stands up for them.
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Exactly. It's always comes back to money. Those with the curiosity will always be taking things apart and replicating. It's just a hobby on top of another hobby.
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It is only shady if you are going to DIY it and sell it and undercut the owner.
if you are doing it for personal interest and a general fun project that you can learn from i don't see a problem with it
I see exactly where you are coming from but this always happens.
Look at say the Soldano SLO if that hadnt been ripped apart there would be no 5150 or rectumfryers
Its just how things evolve & grow or devolve in the above situation
The difficulty comes when you then reproduce the blueprints (essentially) and distribute those. At what point is putting what is pretty much proprietary information in the public domain okay? I would suggest that while a patent is still in effect, that's not okay from a moral or legal standpoint. I haven't looked into this specifically (this case in particular, the law or what other people think about it), I'm just voicing my concerns, because where people do a good job, treat their customers well and are genuinely decent people - as is definitely my experience of ISP technologies - I'd like to be a person who stands up for them.
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It's an ethics thing, and always something that gets heated in the DIY community.
For the Decimator it's a very reasonably priced pedal and is currently commercially available. IMO building them and selling them would be ethically wrong.
Every pedal I have, I have built. I like building pedals. It's how you work out how they work and what they are. I would not have bought an Decimator, I don't really have a use for one. But I wanted to make one... I'll make one for me and Cleggy (who makes the pedals with me) and that's as far as it'd go.
Things that I consider are 'ok' is building and selling circuits that are no longer in production. However you're on shady ground is what you're on when you start replicating booootique pedals. A HUGE amount of them are variations on old circuits. Those, IMO, are fair game. They're just doing what any other DIYer is doing and complaining about it is stupid. Original pedals that are in production are verboten IMO for selling on. Make 'em for yourself by all means. But don't flog 'em.
However... we also have the vastly over priced or unobtainables. The money Klon's change hands for is frankly idiotic. No pedal is that good. However it is a very good pedal that few people can actually lay their hands on (you could buy my Merc off me for the prices I've seen them go for). I've made a few Klone's for people. If I was rampantly profiting out of them I'd almost feel guilty. But I'm not and in fact I've stopped anyhow. This I suspect is the bit that gets most people riled.
Selling odd one's to friends is ok IMO. Certainly if you're not taking the piss price wise. I literally charge for parts and time. I'm not making a living out of it, some people are and I woudn't like to see them losing out.
Certainly if I do eventually try to make a living out of it, I wouldn't have a problem with the DIY community making clones of any of our designs. In fact one that I fancy having a go flogging is out there already for others to build. The best boutique makers recognise this and support DIYers and DIYers in return tend to respect that. Those that kick off (usually the ones that have had their pedal de-gooped only to find it's another tube screamer...) really should wind their necks in a bit and realise that a bunch of pedal geeks isn't going to hurt their profits. Athough they might find the discovery of what their pedal actually is, a little embarrasing. Danelectro cloning your pedal and turning it out for £40 a pop will hurt your profits however... (this has happened more than once).
So for the Decimator, I'd say, yup, go for it. Make your own. But trundling out a batch and selling them on for profit, especially when you can snag one 2nd hand for £60 and not much more new, would be a little off-side.
A very important point was made on the Fuzz documentary. Gear's value to a musician is basically how much he can sell it on for when he needs the cash ;) Names sell, clones don't.
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It is only shady if you are going to DIY it and sell it and undercut the owner.
if you are doing it for personal interest and a general fun project that you can learn from i don't see a problem with it
The difficulty comes when you then reproduce the blueprints (essentially) and distribute those. At what point is putting what is pretty much proprietary information in the public domain okay? I would suggest that while a patent is still in effect, that's not okay from a moral or legal standpoint. I haven't looked into this specifically (this case in particular, the law or what other people think about it), I'm just voicing my concerns, because where people do a good job, treat their customers well and are genuinely decent people - as is definitely my experience of ISP technologies - I'd like to be a person who stands up for them.
Legally, PCB's are copyright as artwork. Therefore reverse engineering a pedal, creating your own schematic and PCB is perfectly legal. You cannot copyright a circuit. It's very hard to do that. shiteety law, but it allows things like that decimator board to be legally created. Indeed it's how AMD make processors.
Totally agree with you on the ethics however. But before people get all Daily Mail on the DIY community, as has happened with a few evangelical types on TGP and some Boutique forums before, I'd like them to realise that people DIYing clones isn't the issue. It's mass produced chinese knock-offs that are the real problem. DIYers are mostly harmless geeks building stuff for shitees and giggles. There are a lot of enlightened Boutique makers that realise this and can be found in the DIY community and even encourage and participate in it. Sadly there are a few who think that we're terrorists (I kid you not)... That doesn't really endear us to them.
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A ProRackG does sell for several multitudes of the cost of a DIY build. I'm not going to pretend some of my wanting isn't coming from that, but as I said before, I'm not selling mine or anything else related for a profit. I'm doing it to produce a better version of what they sell. Yes, a person could potentially undercut ISP by either charging less or using much better components and charging the same. Any production unit can be made much better. Even an SLO, as great as they are, can benefit from additional work if the owner thinks it's worth it.
I had an e-mail in my box when I got home today. I'm going to have to produce Gerber files to keep this as cheap as possible. I don't mind redoing the layout, but I'll see about contacting the original PCB artist and see if he can move things along faster than that.
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. Any production unit can be made much better. Even an SLO, as great as they are, can benefit from additional work if the owner thinks it's worth it.
I agree whilst i loved my clone as it was stock a few tweaks here and there got it exactly where i wanted it.
And im going to do a rebuild on turrets for further & easier modding
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I've started a new thread in Tech for the DIY PCBs that are in the works.
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Photo came out a bit wierd (it actually doesn't look spotty. I suspect that's the metalic bits reflecting as it's on a silver box), but here it is now boxed:
Edit: Took a better picture...
(http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/images/shhh-o.jpg)
(http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/stompage/images/shhh-i.jpg)
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Looks good and a fitting graphic. I like how she's all, "Shhhhhh." Much more classy than a ball gag, though a screenshot from Pulp Fiction might do the job as well.
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Looks good and a fitting graphic. I like how she's all, "Shhhhhh." Much more classy than a ball gag, though a screenshot from Pulp Fiction might do the job as well.
LOL!
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If you run an effects loop, as well as effects before your amps input, then I highly recommend the Decimator G-string. It is a little pricey, but it's worth it if you have the cash. It has very fast tracking for staccato playing, and doesn't mess with you're tone one bit. It allows you to switch from distortion to clean, without having to adjust the threshold or turn on/off the unit, which is a great feature (unless you enjoy tap dancing). The threshold is VERY sensitive, so if you get it dialed in, a piece of tape will prevent the pot from turning during transport to a gig, or accidentally bumping it with your foot. It gates the amp noise, and the noise from any other pedals. My only qualm is having to run 4 1/4 cables through one pedal. Build your own cables if you can. This is the most important pedal in my rig, and in my rhythm guitarist's rig. The G-string version is not necessary if you don't run an effects loop. Hope this helps!
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Funny how we are talking about the morality of copying the design of a company who have done an exact copy of a Boss case for their pedals :D
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Oh the FX circuit is rife with huge dollops of hypocrisy. I remember a certain boutique makers followers going mental that someone was selling a clone of one of his pedals. Properly mental over on the makers forum and TGP. The boutique pedal in question was essentially tweaked fuzz face*
Very little out there is truly original. Even if it is, it's likely to have borrowed bits in it. Which I have no problem with, as long as no one makes out that it's the 2nd coming.
*and IMO, shat.
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+1, that's the way i look at it too. If it truly is an original design, and it's reasonably priced, and there's no hype/emperor's new clothes guff going on about it, then you probably shouldn't clone it.
But if it's a very slightly tweaked tubescreamer (and if it's boutique, odds are it is... maybe even if it's a phaser pedal :lol: ), yeah, I don't care. You cloned, don't blame someone else for cloning you.
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Talking of clones... Built an Aquapuss today. I like it so have been looking for suitable things for the decal.
Googling for wet pussy can be a bit dodgy, but sometimes the results are awesome:
(http://www.popular-pics.com/PPImages/wet-pussy-5.jpg)
If anyone else has a cat and would like to dip it into the tub then quickly take a high res picture of it being wet and pissed off, it'd be greatly appreciated :)
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I bet this one could be cropped well for a pedal face. Kinda makes me think of Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs though. :?
(http://cdn2.holytaco.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2009/12/wet-cat1_0.jpg)
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That's creepy. Not so much annoyed as 'I'm going to wait until your sleeping, then come in and eat your faces'. Fear that cat. Fear it!
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Talking of clones... Built an Aquapuss today. I like it so have been looking for suitable things for the decal.
Googling for wet pussy can be a bit dodgy, but sometimes the results are awesome:
(http://www.popular-pics.com/PPImages/wet-pussy-5.jpg)
If anyone else has a cat and would like to dip it into the tub then quickly take a high res picture of it being wet and pissed off, it'd be greatly appreciated :)
Just cleaned the lawn of cat litter. I don't have a cat but next door does. :x
I'll see what I can do
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lol at the pics :lol: