Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => The Dressing Room => Topic started by: Ian Price on December 14, 2011, 11:15:47 AM
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I think this guy was dealt with quite appropriately:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bvnOgxd6wo
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I disagree.
They should have just carried on and called ahead to the cops or BTP. He allegedly had some mix up with his tickets and dealt with it like an arse because he was drunk. But I feel like the whole thing could have been dealt with better. There were kids right next to that guy. It doesn't take much for things to get out of hand. Best to let people who get paid to deal with that stuff deal with it. The kid wasn't causing immediate danger to anyone and I think that means the train guard had some options. He could have been taken off at the next stop and fined. Whatever.
EDIT: its also claimed the kid was diabetic and his medication along with his money and other belongings got left on the train when he got ejected. Regardless of whether that is true, it just highlights the potential danger of dealing with this situation in this way and why it should be left to police or similar.
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Sure - and actually on a second viewing and reading your comments I think maybe my initial reaction was too quick. It could so easily have been a manslaughter case against the big guy - he does throw him off the train with a bit too much force.
My initial reaction is due to me being a rail user. I've seen so many people obviously not paying and getting away with it that it just absolutely p!sses me off. I even saw one non payer happily empty a whole can of coke into a drinks holder and then when challenged by a fellow passenger his response was "what are you going to do about it".
Perhaps the train conductor didn't deal with it appropriately and I guess he could be in trouble for agreeing to let one of his passengers take control of the situation. Perhaps he only got involved as he too was getting frustrated and didn't have any confidence in the police or BTP.
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Yeah, I imagine that's true. I bet being a train guard is frustrating. That said, I've seen ticket inspectors on london buses intimidate people into accepting fines when then didn't need to (I complain to TFL or whoever about it, explained what happened and confirmed my suspicion)... also in London, its rare to see ticket inspectors on trains into the city, but they all wait at the ticket barriers and fine people who walk over to the platform ticket booth to buy a ticket.
I ran onto the train once cos i was late for work, realised my oyster travel card was out of date by one day once I got to london bridge (the station i got on at didn't have barriers at the time) and I went straight over to the ticket place to get a ticket, totally willing to pay to get through the barrier, i got harassed by a team of ticket inspectors handing out fines to people legitimately wanting to buy tickets to get out the station. That's all they do. It's probably effective at bringing in money to the train company, but useless for keeping fare dodgers off trains.
I know a guy who was walking down a train and a guy had his legs over the isle and forced him to step over them... as he stepped over the legs the guy called him a pussy. This dude i know sat in another carriage getting worked up about it, then at his stop, walked back over to the 'legs' guy, grabbed a bottle and smashed it in the guys face and said "who is the pussy now?" before getting off the train. so people don't always get away with things but there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with stuff.
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Personally I think that he should have been taken outside and shot.
Yours
J Clarkson
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"who is the pussy now?"
The guy who felt the need to smash a bottle in someone's face over a relatively minor altercation, I'd say.
But I can see where he's commin from alright.
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"who is the pussy now?"
The guy who felt the need to smash a bottle in someone's face over a relatively minor altercation, I'd say.
But I can see where he's commin from alright.
It is over top... granted, but he was dealing with an anti-social youth so clearly he's a hero.
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Something like this happened on a train I was on a few weeks ago on a sunday early evening
Drunk gets on train and barges into the guard
words are exchanged & gets heated between drunk (in his 50s i should point out) and guard
train is delayed whilst Transport police are called
Drunk is evicted from train
But then guard refuses to get back on train deciding that he has been the victim of passenger abuse
Train sits for ages at station, whilst driver, station manager and I think union rep all try to persuade guard to continue journey.
In the end the train is cancelled and we all have to pile off into the cold and wait however long for the next scheduled service.
Also passengers waiting for the train's return journey going the other way would find their train cancelled, and maybe be unable to get to their concerts, show or events on time.
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I'd like to add 'Trains in the UK' to my list of hates.
Not as high as traffic wardens, the beatw@ts and telecasters, but still, up there with maybe mashed potato and people who queue jump at the bus stop.
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I'd like to add 'Trains in the UK' to my list of hates.
Not as high as traffic wardens, the beatw@ts and telecasters, but still, up there with maybe mashed potato and people who queue jump at the bus stop.
Mashed potato is great. Particularly with some grated cheddar sprinkled ever so carefully over the top of it.
I had no idea that you hated such a wonderful thing.
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This would be one of the reasons I don't use public transport...
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I'd like to add 'Trains in the UK' to my list of hates.
Not as high as traffic wardens, the beatw@ts and telecasters, but still, up there with maybe mashed potato and people who queue jump at the bus stop.
Mashed potato is great. Particularly with some grated cheddar sprinkled ever so carefully over the top of it.
I had no idea that you hated such a wonderful thing.
Roo must spend much of his time in a blind rage, what with the general prevalence of mashed potato and the beatles.
No wonder he had to join a hardcore band.
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EDIT: its also claimed the kid was diabetic and his medication along with his money and other belongings got left on the train when he got ejected. Regardless of whether that is true, it just highlights the potential danger of dealing with this situation in this way and why it should be left to police or similar.
Don't know how cops works up above, but here down south the idea to solve it fast is exactly what the big guy did...
He lost his medication? If he had get off the train as was solicited he wouldn't lose it... Is he diabetic? And drinking??? So, the medication is the smaller problem of the guy...
And I only didn't do it a few times here for some reasons because in the end I was going to be pointed as the wrong, but if you try to solve the problems the right way, well it ain't solve nothing...
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I think that what must be restored in this country is a universal idea that actions can have consequences
It was one thing the young fella not paying for his fare , but when caught and challenged about it he had no fear and felt that he could just sit there and mess up things for everyone else on the train.
Some of them may have just been going home after a long day, others may have had important connections to make - either transport - wise or to collect children etc etc
It was one thing for the ticket inspector to take the "I can wait all evening - I'm getting paid" stance , but others relying on that service to get them home or somewhere on time could not afford that luxury.
If the train were to be delayed more than say 20 minutes the train operating company would normally choose to cancel the service to stop them from having chaos on the line in terms of trains holding other services up or having rolling stock in the wrong places. (Or if you are cynical like me - they cancel them rather than risk spoiling a punctuality record by having a late running train).
But that would mean turfing all the passengers off the train - maybe leaving them no way of getting home other than mega expensive taxis - I don't fancy the young man's life expectancy if that happened.
The big fella did act a bit too forcefully, but I think he was sick of twerps like that spoiling things for others.
But in a way other passengers getting pissed off with the situation and collectively taking action would make the lad feel consequences for his behaviour.
It will be sad if he gets prosecuted and the lad gets damages....but sadly that is what seems to happen in this country.
It makes me almost as angry as the theft of copper wire from train signals causing cancelled services
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I don't know quite what I think of this. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of members of the public taking action in these situations, but to be fair the "big man" seems to behave quite reasonably and use a minimum of force (just about). No one wants public transport to be held up just because of one idiot. I've been on buses where the driver has refused to continue and everyone has had to get off just because one tw@t refused to pay.
A friend of mine suffers from a medical condition which - she says - makes it uncomfortable for her to travel on trains and she - allegedly - needs someone to help her on and off at stations. Recently she was getting off a train and none of the platform staff would help her.... they said she should have booked assistance in advance! She stood in the door, holding up the train, and in the end some guy pushed her out!
Of course she was outraged. I can see why, in theory, but I can also understand the reaction of the other passenger. I think the platform staff come out of it most badly - it would've been so simple for one of them to just make a token effort at helping her.
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A friend of mine suffers from a medical condition which - she says - makes it uncomfortable for her to travel on trains and she - allegedly - needs someone to help her on and off at stations. Recently she was getting off a train and none of the platform staff would help her.... they said she should have booked assistance in advance! She stood in the door, holding up the train, and in the end some guy pushed her out!
OK, I've gotta ask... what "condition" lets you get travel on a train but not get on or off?
Is it of the type that can only be diagnosed by a Shaman or Crystal Healer?
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A friend of mine suffers from a medical condition which - she says - makes it uncomfortable for her to travel on trains and she - allegedly - needs someone to help her on and off at stations. Recently she was getting off a train and none of the platform staff would help her.... they said she should have booked assistance in advance! She stood in the door, holding up the train, and in the end some guy pushed her out!
OK, I've gotta ask... what "condition" lets you get travel on a train but not get on or off?
Is it of the type that can only be diagnosed by a Shaman or Crystal Healer?
Being in a wheelchair?
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A friend of mine suffers from a medical condition which - she says - makes it uncomfortable for her to travel on trains and she - allegedly - needs someone to help her on and off at stations. Recently she was getting off a train and none of the platform staff would help her.... they said she should have booked assistance in advance! She stood in the door, holding up the train, and in the end some guy pushed her out!
OK, I've gotta ask... what "condition" lets you get travel on a train but not get on or off?
Is it of the type that can only be diagnosed by a Shaman or Crystal Healer?
Being in a wheelchair?
No wheelchair.
She suffers from something called fibromyalgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibromyalgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibromyalgia)) and is also epileptic and hyper-sensitive to electric light..... when we go to a pub she always asks someone to move so she doesn't have to sit in view of a light. :|
I'm sure it's a real condition, but most of the time she seems to get around OK. I've seen her jog across the road when a light's changing, for example. I don't want to be unkind, but I think situations like the train incident are largely attention-seeking.
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Just read up on fibromyalgia and it appears to encompass a range from "I'm really in a bad way, but I don't know why" to "I'm just an a$$hole who will moan to my doctor until I'm taken seriously and diagnosed with something"
Tricky... :?
I'd just try to avoid the lot of 'em for fear of saying something out loud I'd regret and being an a$$hole myself.
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Just read up on fibromyalgia and it appears to encompass a range from "I'm really in a bad way, but I don't know why" to "I'm just an a$$hole who will moan to my doctor until I'm taken seriously and diagnosed with something"
Tricky... :?
Well..... yes.
She also claims to have badly injured her knee a few years ago by tripping over a tree root and being thrown 36 feet through the air. Think about it.... 36 feet.... that's well over the world long jump record, even downhill with a following wind. But she insists that was the distance. :?
I should stop now.
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A friend of mine has that too.
I went to visit her a while ago and she couldn't walk too far and kind of sat quietly at times. mostly cos she doesn't want to admit when it affects her. But at a gig we went to she got so bad from standing up for ages than she pretty much collapsed and I had to carry her outside and sit her down where she basically lay on the floor writhing in agony. It was pretty hard to watch knowing I couldn't do anything about it. I just kept people away from her so she didn't have to deal with people gawping. I'd say its a pretty real thing for some people at least.
As for public transport, I use it all the time. since the bendy buses in london have gone there seem to be a lot less nutcases on the buses I get. I feel if public transport was a bit cheaper, and companies put effort into making trains and buses safer as well providing a slightly more reliable service, then lots more people would use them. Sadly they won't. Because train companies are staffed by the lowest form of humanity on the planet.
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Because train companies are staffed by the lowest form of humanity on the planet.
So THAT'S what Ringo and Macc-tw@t are doing these days...
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As for public transport, I use it all the time. since the bendy buses in london have gone there seem to be a lot less nutcases on the buses I get.
I think that's true. There seem to be fewer loons and oiks on the trains too - I think maybe because most stations now have ticket barriers(?)
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The loons hang out outside the stations.
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I've been given a wrong ticket before and done exactly the same as the young guy, only I was sober, just sat and refused to move and the conductor was quite reasonable. He didn't feel the need to goad other passengers until some big prick decided he could be a hero and inflate his ego by assaulting someone smaller than himself.
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Whether or not the fella had a genuine reason, the point is that blaggers DO exist, and are frequently found on my bloody train!
I hate to be a hater, but fare dodging on public transport is very, very common, and being someone who is held to ransom by my ONLY train company, I really begrudge someone trying to get away with a commute that I pay many thousands of pounds a year for, for free.
Fare dodging is stealing, and an anti social behaviour. Like using violent or abusive language on trains. I hate that too. I take my kids on the commute sometimes, and I'll happily tell a group of blokes to tone the language down. And I get the kind of looks that would probably stand up in court.
But I don't care.
It's anti social. We shouldn't tolerate it as a society. And I think it's up to us individually to point out when people are in the wrong.
Because there IS right, and there IS wrong. It's not a matter of perspective.
</rant>
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Bump what "The Bump" said... Spot on! PDT_003
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Whether or not the fella had a genuine reason, the point is that blaggers DO exist, and are frequently found on my bloody train!
I hate to be a hater, but fare dodging on public transport is very, very common, and being someone who is held to ransom by my ONLY train company, I really begrudge someone trying to get away with a commute that I pay many thousands of pounds a year for, for free.
Fare dodging is stealing, and an anti social behaviour. Like using violent or abusive language on trains. I hate that too. I take my kids on the commute sometimes, and I'll happily tell a group of blokes to tone the language down. And I get the kind of looks that would probably stand up in court.
But I don't care.
It's anti social. We shouldn't tolerate it as a society. And I think it's up to us individually to point out when people are in the wrong.
Because there IS right, and there IS wrong. It's not a matter of perspective.
</rant>
All absolutely true. Doesn't mean likely-cowards (one wonders if he'd have gotten involved if the youngster was anything other than a skinny child) should assault little people to feel good about themselves. I really hope the vigilante arsehole gets charged and the conductor loses his job.
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What usually happens is that you have to wait for the police to arrive if the person dont wanna leave the train. the conductor cant force a man off. I think that people have waited for quite a while there. Might explain the camera phone in the first place. the big fella just did everyone a favour by throwing that idiot out of the wagon.
I tried that too where i missed my plane for work because of some $%&#ing idiot kid, making trouble.
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The trouble is the train companies treatment of passengers nowadays has got so poor that in some cases what they do is worse morally than a fare dodger.
I've been held against my wishes on a train that broke down for 2 hours, no apology, nothing.
The train was 100 yards from the station.
The last train I got was on Monday, the one that was supposed to stop sped past and we had to wait 50 minutes in the cold. There was no warning or announcement, the electronic sign simply changed and our train vanished.
When we got to Manchester we had to get a ticket as the station we got on at had no conductor and neither did the train. So 60 people had to queue up while one guy issued tickets. We asked him why there was no conductor before and got the stadard answer ' it's not our company' and blamed somebody else. We asked him why there was only one guy with a machine and he said he was the only one trained. So after being 50 minites late we had to then wait for 15 to get a ticket.
All part of the train experience and I'm not excusing non payers but sometimes I feel like I'm the one that has been robbed :evil:
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I really hope the vigilante arsehole gets charged and the conductor loses his job.
Really?
Is that what you think Neil or are you just being provocative?
Why should the poor conductor lose his job?
He was frustrated that he was nigh on powerless to do much about the kid.
I think the big fella did maybe overstep his bounds in the degree of force that he used but he only did what most of the passengers being delayed wished they had the guts to do .
What would have been better would have been for ALL the passengers collectively to have stood up and made the kid get off the train so they could get to their destination relatively on time.
Most people are sick of one or two silly individuals spoiling things for the rest of us.
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Nothing would have happened had the conductor not been goading other passengers with all his "all these people will be getting annoyed" repeatedly. His obligation on the train is to have the BTP called, not to involve himself in an argument (regardless of who started it) and leave it at that. He also, arguably, involves himself in the actual throwing of the train of the "fare-dodger" who may have been issued a wrong ticket and actually paid for the journey.
I would note, he shouldn't be getting thrown off at all, even if he doesn't have a valid ticket, he should just be asked to buy one or to pay at the station he arrives at.
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what should have happened, is the conductor should have called the british transport police to be at the next stop. They could have done their job. The conductor didn't care about anyone else on the train he just got irate at the kid. there must be training or company policy which doesn't involve stopping the train until the guy gets off or leaving the train stationary until BTP arrive. So a word from his boss is probably needed. Frustrated or not, he should be able to deal with the situation more effectively than he did.
As for the other people, maybe most of the people in that carriage thought it was wrong for them to man handle someone off a train? maybe the woman sat with her kids right by that guy was worried about the safety of her kids? If i tried to drag someone off a train and someones kid got hurt, i doubt they would turn around and say "good job mate, i wish I could of done that, my kid got hurt but hey ho, you were doing your best to help the rest of us, my 4 year old can take one for the team".
I've only ever used public transport and ive seen bad stuff happen but ive never seen scores of faredogers holding up trains so I don't believe that it's super common. Bendy buses where by FAR worse. I've seen the CRAZIEST stuff happen on bendy buses and nobody bat an eyelid mainly because everyone is terrified. Much worse than a skinny runt sitting on a train.
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What were Bendy Buses and what was so bad about them ?
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What were Bendy Buses and what was so bad about them ?
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46108000/jpg/_46108864_bendy512.jpg)
They have 3 sets of doors and no conductor
They relied upon people being honest and paying for a ticket
A big majority didn't and they were considered a free bus by many
Often thieves would wait till one pulled up and opened it's doors , leap on and grab someones iPhone, bag or laptop and jump off again and run off
They have been taken out of service in London now as they lost revenue through nobody paying for a ticket
they were also very good at squashing cyclists as they went round corners
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for which match or concert these tickets are?
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They have been taken out of service in London now as they lost revenue through nobody paying for a ticket
Apart from the fare dodging issue, I think they also held up traffic.
Central London has so many traffic lights, so close together..... in slow traffic, it seemed like the bendy bus drivers would hold back, even at a green light, in case they got stuck blocking a junction when the lights changed.
Traffic flow is still terrible, but I think it's got a little better the last couple of years.
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Frustrated or not, he should be able to deal with the situation more effectively than he did.
well we all have bad days. the guy had probably already dealt with the problem more reasonably every day for the last 10 years. the difference is now we live in a society where your off days get recorded and posted on youtube for a million people to see
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Frustrated or not, he should be able to deal with the situation more effectively than he did.
well we all have bad days. the guy had probably already dealt with the problem more reasonably every day for the last 10 years. the difference is now we live in a society where your off days get recorded and posted on youtube for a million people to see
I've had plenty of 'bad days', but I've never assaulted a customer no matter how much of an off day I was having!
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16229921
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Frustrated or not, he should be able to deal with the situation more effectively than he did.
well we all have bad days. the guy had probably already dealt with the problem more reasonably every day for the last 10 years. the difference is now we live in a society where your off days get recorded and posted on youtube for a million people to see
I've had plenty of 'bad days', but I've never assaulted a customer no matter how much of an off day I was having!
did the train driver assault anyone?
i agree the big guy shouldn't have thrown the kid of the train as forcefully as he did and that the train driver could have handled it better.
but real life in the heat of the moment isnt so idealistic. who can honestly say they have never had a bad day and handled a situation poorly because of it?
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Edited because of more rational answers later in thread ...
I just want to standby the principle that folks should pay for their tickets on transport
and that they should face the consequences of their actions if they choose not to
But agree with later sentiments that this should be tackled properly by the BTP or whatever official parties without delaying or cancelling services for other passengers.
I should maybe stay out of threads like this .......... I start to sound like the middle aged chap that I am
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i agree the big guy shouldn't have thrown the kid of the train as forcefully as he did and that the train driver could have handled it better.
but real life in the heat of the moment isnt so idealistic. who can honestly say they have never had a bad day and handled a situation poorly because of it?
I'm still not sure which "side" I'm on here, but the people making the big man out to be some kind of violent vigilante thug are wide of the mark. It looks to me like he tries to remain as calm as he can.
And yes, we all have bad days. Just yesterday, I got stressed out at work over something trivial, because I had too many other things to do, and started swearing at everyone then stomped down five flights of stairs and back up again, kicking all the fire escape doors on the way.
Felt a bit of a fool afterwards. :oops: :lol:
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I think if anything that's probably a good example of why conductors shouldn't tackle problematic people themselves or exacerbate situations, rather simply contact the BTP and let them get on with things. And I imagine incidents like that are exactly why they'll have policies telling them to go the latter route.
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I've been on a bus where there was an issue (mouthy 'kid' gets on whilst eating fried chicken, driver refuses to let him on, kid kicks off and doesn't leave), the driver called for the Police, and in the 25minutes that we were waiting, nothing at all.... we all just waited for the next bus, and hopped on (including the fried chicken kid, didn't pay either).
People that don't wish to abide by the rules of public transport, deserve to get any punishment that comes their way. Fare dodgers just make everyone elses' life a misery.
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I'm coming late to this thread but I'm not going to sit on the fence.
This is how people with no tickets should be dealt with.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DvNseba-wHUc&v=vNseba-wHUc&gl=GB
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Here in denmark we have a SMS ticket system. you can buy your ticket on the phone. Saves alot of trouble
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Not sure if that link is working properly Matt.
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I think Matt's solution of sending them all to the cinema to badly pirate films may not work.
Maybe we should get them all bicycles...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNseba-wHUc
Fixed.
That'll teach them
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:D
The very scene I had in mind when I was typing the thread title!
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did the train driver assault anyone?
Yes, he pushed him back off the train when the passenger tried to get back on at the end, or at least that's what it looks like.
but real life in the heat of the moment isnt so idealistic. who can honestly say they have never had a bad day and handled a situation poorly because of it?
Me - I've never handled a situation THAT badly before, maybe I've dropped the ball on something or been short with someone, but I've never assaulted anyone or completely thrown the rule book out of the window. He doesn't look fit to do a customer facing job to me.
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I think that unless you are doing the same job (or something very similar) it is very very difficult to make a judgement about how you would have handled the situation. He may well have been in the job for many years and have been threatened or even assaulted himself - perhaps he had been in a similar situation(s) before and he was left to deal with it alone. Anything like this would most definitely have an impact about how he chose to handle this particular situation if that were to be the case.
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I think that unless you are doing the same job (or something very similar) it is very very difficult to make a judgement about how you would have handled the situation. He may well have been in the job for many years and have been threatened or even assaulted himself - perhaps he had been in a similar situation(s) before and he was left to deal with it alone. Anything like this would most definitely have an impact about how he chose to handle this particular situation if that were to be the case.
I've done similar jobs in the past, although admittedly not for a long time, but that doesn't mean we can't make a judgement on him. He could indeed have been assaulted himself or been left to deal with difficult things alone - this might make him react badly in these situations now, but that is more reason for him not to be doing the job now. His actions were unprofessional and that should be addressed.
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So he loses his job regardless of what may or may not have happened before. Personally I feel empathy for him. I agree that it was unprofessional didn't say people couldn't make a judgement - just that it is very difficult to assess how you would have handled it without understanding what may or may not have happened before in his career, what happened before the filming started, what pressure he was getting faced with by the customers etc.
I imagine in the heat of the moment a lot of training and clear thinking goes out of the window - this wouldn't have been helped by a passenger approaching with a clear intent on getting the kid off of the train. What would have happened if the conductor had said no? I reckon that guy would have still got him off of the train. Yep, I'm making a judgement based on what I saw without knowing what that guys motive was.
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So he loses his job regardless of what may or may not have happened before. Personally I feel empathy for him. I agree that it was unprofessional didn't say people couldn't make a judgement - just that it is very difficult to assess how you would have handled it without understanding what may or may not have happened before in his career, what happened before the filming started, what pressure he was getting faced with by the customers etc.
I imagine in the heat of the moment a lot of training and clear thinking goes out of the window - this wouldn't have been helped by a passenger approaching with a clear intent on getting the kid off of the train. What would have happened if the conductor had said no? I reckon that guy would have still got him off of the train. Yep, I'm making a judgement based on what I saw without knowing what that guys motive was.
I don't think I'm really disagreeing with you - I also feel empathy for him, and understand that there may have been reasons for his lack of professionalism, but other people should not be disadvantaged by that. If he had reasons for acting that way, such as being assaulted in the past himself or whatever, then he should receive help for that, I just think that in the meantime he still should not be doing the job the way he did it in that clip.
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Me - I've never handled a situation THAT badly before, maybe I've dropped the ball on something or been short with someone, but I've never assaulted anyone or completely thrown the rule book out of the window. He doesn't look fit to do a customer facing job to me.
i can admit may have done my job that badly in the past - thankfully no-one was filming it
we have a senior fellow who is working as a train conductor. it probably was not the profession he chose. the most likely situation is that he has worked a trade most of his life, been faced by a job market that does not need his skills and ended up working as a train conductor. so he takes the job and does it reasonably well most of the time.
every now and again he is faced by a situation like this. sometimes he handles it perfectly, just as he is supposed to. in this situation he probably followed exactly what he was told to do - till the point a member of the public intervened. just happened this time some tw@t was filming him. who was this guy filming. he clearly thought it was a 'situation', hence starting filming. but rather than get involved they just filmed... and laughed at the situation... and clapped. so we have a potential fare dodger, an underpaid and overworked elderly conductor, a guy that stepped in ( and potentially over stepped the mark) . and some guy who just filmed it all.
maybe the fare dodger should have checked his tickets. maybe the conductor should have handled his part of it better, maybe he should have told the big fellow to sit back down as it was being sorted. maybe the big fellow should have let the conductor do what ever it was he should have done next. maybe after pushing the guy off the train the first time he should have resisted the urge to chuck him off the second time.... and just maybe that guy filming could have been putting your point forward. that maybe there is a better way to handle this situation, but nope... he was just there observing and thinking about how he would tell his mates about it later that day. which is unfortunately what most of us would do
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Me - I've never handled a situation THAT badly before, maybe I've dropped the ball on something or been short with someone, but I've never assaulted anyone or completely thrown the rule book out of the window. He doesn't look fit to do a customer facing job to me.
i can admit may have done my job that badly in the past - thankfully no-one was filming it
we have a senior fellow who is working as a train conductor. it probably was not the profession he chose. the most likely situation is that he has worked a trade most of his life, been faced by a job market that does not need his skills and ended up working as a train conductor. so he takes the job and does it reasonably well most of the time.
every now and again he is faced by a situation like this. sometimes he handles it perfectly, just as he is supposed to. in this situation he probably followed exactly what he was told to do - till the point a member of the public intervened. just happened this time some tw@t was filming him. who was this guy filming. he clearly thought it was a 'situation', hence starting filming. but rather than get involved they just filmed... and laughed at the situation... and clapped. so we have a potential fare dodger, an underpaid and overworked elderly conductor, a guy that stepped in ( and potentially over stepped the mark) . and some guy who just filmed it all.
maybe the fare dodger should have checked his tickets. maybe the conductor should have handled his part of it better, maybe he should have told the big fellow to sit back down as it was being sorted. maybe the big fellow should have let the conductor do what ever it was he should have done next. maybe after pushing the guy off the train the first time he should have resisted the urge to chuck him off the second time.... and just maybe that guy filming could have been putting your point forward. that maybe there is a better way to handle this situation, but nope... he was just there observing and thinking about how he would tell his mates about it later that day. which is unfortunately what most of us would do
That was a good answer, and this thread has taken a turn for the better since I last looked.
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maybe the fare dodger should have checked his tickets. maybe the conductor should have handled his part of it better, maybe he should have told the big fellow to sit back down as it was being sorted. maybe the big fellow should have let the conductor do what ever it was he should have done next. maybe after pushing the guy off the train the first time he should have resisted the urge to chuck him off the second time.... and just maybe that guy filming could have been putting your point forward. that maybe there is a better way to handle this situation, but nope... he was just there observing and thinking about how he would tell his mates about it later that day. which is unfortunately what most of us would do
Exactly, I don't think anyone in that clip behaved well, it could (and should) have been handled better all round. However these things happen and thankfully it is the exception rather than the rule.
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In my oh-so-humble opinion, so many people here are missing the point.
Ultimately I think that this is about social responsibility. We all have a responsibility, I believe, to get along and reduce the sh!t that we ALL - society - has to deal with.
I think that all this talk of assault, leave it to the BTP etc, is wide of the mark - it's passing on the responsibility of dealing with someone who (for the sake of argument) is acting outside the boundaries of society believes to be right. It's our responsibility - mine, yours - to point out when things are f*cked up and wrong.
That situation was f*cked up and wrong. The choice is to deal with it yourself, or pass on the responsibility to an "authority" in the matter - wait for BTP to eventually come along, inconvenience the whole train for the sake of the sensibilities of some young scrote.
If the young scrote in question believed that he couldn't get away with sealing the ticket and that he wasn't untouchable, that situation might not have happened.
* I'm making the assumption that he WAS a proper fare dodger, and WAS a young scrote, based on the fact that he looked like one and I'm never wrong. If I'm wrong in this instance, I apologise.
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I guess we just have different points of view MrBump. I don't want the public trying to impose their own version of justice on anyone, I don't want random strangers trying to guess at whether I am in the right or wrong without all the facts and trying to hand out their own version of vigilante justice. We have authorities for that.
Also, there is another reason for the big man not to have acted as he did - what if the passenger was really a scrote and was so to the point that he was carrying a knife, or what if he didn't have a knife but he decided to fight back? The 'big man' could have ended up in hospital and he would have had no comeback, as effectively he started a fight with someone and came off the worse. That's another reason that the authorities should deal with things like this.
Don't get me wrong, I kind of want to agree with you as I think that this guy was genuinely a scrote - but that isn't my call to make and we have to be objective about this. If the conductor and the 'big man' can get away with this, then what about next time when they get it wrong (assuming they didn't this time).
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Understand completely.
But again - that's the point. It's about NOT WANTING to absolve myself from responsibility and handing that responsibility over to another (state/police/school etc).
I'm not talking about kangaroo courts, stringing people up from lamp posts etc. But I think that in so many ways it's up to us to take the lead in situations like that, not pass the responsibility to a dubious authority.
I for one will always tell someone being abusive on a train that they're in the wrong, and act accordingly*.
* Unless they're WAY bigger/harder than me, obviously...
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meh... I'll admit I'm torn on this one, as I say I kind of agree with you. I just don't think it should be as physical as it was this time.
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But again - that's the point. It's about NOT WANTING to absolve myself from responsibility and handing that responsibility over to another (state/police/school etc).
I'm not talking about kangaroo courts, stringing people up from lamp posts etc. But I think that in so many ways it's up to us to take the lead in situations like that, not pass the responsibility to a dubious authority.
I think you're right, but if you take action on your own you risk various consequences - (a) being perceived as a violent thug yourself; (b) being seriously injured or even killed; (c) being prosecuted by the scrote or their family.
Does that sound cowardly? Probably.
I think ideally we need to get back to a state of affairs which (perhaps) existed in the past, where the majority of people "just won't stand for it". Then if you raised your voice in a situation like this, you could expect others to back you up - and hopefully strength of numbers would keep things relatively calm and ensure it never got to the point of physical action.
Whereas nowadays if someone actually stands up to a troublemaker, 99% of the rest of us will bury our heads in the sand and pretend we can't see or hear anything. Or - even worse - treat it as some kind of entertainment to be filmed and posted on YouTube. :|
Taking a much less serious situation as an example, it's amazing how one person can sit and annoy everyone on a bus by playing loud music on their phone - no-one else wants to hear it, but no-one will ask them to turn it down.... because they KNOW no-one else will back them up.
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Taking a much less serious situation as an example, it's amazing how one person can sit and annoy everyone on a bus by playing loud music on their phone - no-one else wants to hear it, but no-one will ask them to turn it down.... because they KNOW no-one else will back them up.
That is a MASSIVE sore point for me... I can't stand the practice and the social issolation that allows it to happen.
So, what if I'm on that train trying to get to my hospital appointment or my pregnant wife rang and needs me home ASAP?
I should sit there while a single person puts himself before EVERYONE else?
BTW - I've actually been the guy who lost his ticket when drunk after a stag night and I got off the train to go through all my bags till I found it and got on the next train!
I'm not going to get drawn into this thread but I feel some of the posters here have got the society they deserve.
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Taking a much less serious situation as an example, it's amazing how one person can sit and annoy everyone on a bus by playing loud music on their phone - no-one else wants to hear it, but no-one will ask them to turn it down.... because they KNOW no-one else will back them up.
That is a MASSIVE sore point for me... I can't stand the practice and the social issolation that allows it to happen.
So, what if I'm on that train trying to get to my hospital appointment or my pregnant wife rang and needs me home ASAP?
I should sit there while a single person puts himself before EVERYONE else?
No, you should get home or to the hospital as expected while the train carries on and the person causing the trouble is picked up by the police or the transport authority later, without you ever knowing about it.
BTW - I've actually been the guy who lost his ticket when drunk after a stag night and I got off the train to go through all my bags till I found it and got on the next train!
I'm not going to get drawn into this thread but I feel some of the posters here have got the society they deserve.
And I'm very happy about having this society where I'm less likely to be assaulted by some mindless vigilante and a conductor on a power trip, thanks.
I'm all for asking an inconsiderate youth to turn his music down, or stepping in when someone is putting other people in danger, but in this case the guy wasn't responding to requests and nobody was in danger - the train should have carried on and the guy should have been reported and sorted out later - this seems like a sensible protocol that should please all parties to me.
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Chris is talking a lot of sense.
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True story.
People seem to be really struggling to grasp that the youngster was not holding up the train nor inconveniencing anyone (bar himself, in the long run), the conductor was.
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After not witnessing anything crazy on a train for a long time... tonight changed all that. nothing major. minor scuffle.
Beer related nonsense. pff.
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So, Scotrail and BTP investigations have proven the chap WAS sold the wrong ticket and had paid for the journey. The conductor is suspended over his conduct in a separate incident.
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And now the "Big Man" is being charged with assault:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16288101 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16288101)
Sounds like the kid's not off the hook yet though.
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But again - that's the point. It's about NOT WANTING to absolve myself from responsibility and handing that responsibility over to another (state/police/school etc).
I'm not talking about kangaroo courts, stringing people up from lamp posts etc. But I think that in so many ways it's up to us to take the lead in situations like that, not pass the responsibility to a dubious authority.
I think you're right, but if you take action on your own you risk various consequences - (a) being perceived as a violent thug yourself; (b) being seriously injured or even killed; (c) being prosecuted by the scrote or their family.
Does that sound cowardly? Probably.
I think ideally we need to get back to a state of affairs which (perhaps) existed in the past, where the majority of people "just won't stand for it". Then if you raised your voice in a situation like this, you could expect others to back you up - and hopefully strength of numbers would keep things relatively calm and ensure it never got to the point of physical action.
Whereas nowadays if someone actually stands up to a troublemaker, 99% of the rest of us will bury our heads in the sand and pretend we can't see or hear anything. Or - even worse - treat it as some kind of entertainment to be filmed and posted on YouTube. :|
Taking a much less serious situation as an example, it's amazing how one person can sit and annoy everyone on a bus by playing loud music on their phone - no-one else wants to hear it, but no-one will ask them to turn it down.... because they KNOW no-one else will back them up.
The solution: The motor car.
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The solution: The motor car.
(a) London traffic is dreadful, I'd hardly ever use the car.
(b) Even if I did, parking costs a fortune.
(c) Couldn't afford the insurance where I live (correction: wouldn't want to pay that much...)
(d) ........I can't actually drive. :|
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The solution: The motor car.
(a) London traffic is dreadful, I'd hardly ever use the car.
(b) Even if I did, parking costs a fortune.
(c) Couldn't afford the insurance where I live (correction: wouldn't want to pay that much...)
(d) ........I can't actually drive. :|
A) You live in Streatham - and the standard of driving in Streatham and other South London areas in unbelievably bad
B) meh to owning a car in London
C) most other people in Streatham don't have insurance!
D) see C!
Okay I'm being a bit tongue in cheek , but there is a grain of truth there
And parts of North London are the same!
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The solution: The motor car.
(a) London traffic is dreadful, I'd hardly ever use the car.
(b) Even if I did, parking costs a fortune.
(c) Couldn't afford the insurance where I live (correction: wouldn't want to pay that much...)
(d) ........I can't actually drive. :|
Ah London, our little insular car averse utopia surrounded by the ring of evil (the M25). You're screwed, sorry.
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The solution: The motor car.
(a) London traffic is dreadful, I'd hardly ever use the car.
(b) Even if I did, parking costs a fortune.
(c) Couldn't afford the insurance where I live (correction: wouldn't want to pay that much...)
(d) ........I can't actually drive. :|
A) You live in Streatham - and the standard of driving in Streatham and other South London areas in unbelievably bad
B) meh to owning a car in London
C) most other people in Streatham don't have insurance!
D) see C!
Okay I'm being a bit tongue in cheek , but there is a grain of truth there
And parts of North London are the same!
All too true, sadly! :lol:
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:lol:
Yep, I'm in the same boat - even about to move to Streatham. I can drive, but haven't done so for 10-15 years. I must admit I'd be terrified of starting again. The folks I know who do drive seem to have a worse time travelling than I do. It seems to be costing them a load more, and they're usually wound up about something car-related (tax, petrol, insurance, other drivers, queues, parking, etc, etc).
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Yep, I'm in the same boat - even about to move to Streatham.
Bloody hell! Which bit of Streatham?
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Just got a rock thrown at me from a passing car. It missed. I love south london and its festive attitude.