Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => The Dressing Room => Topic started by: MDV on April 17, 2012, 08:55:55 PM
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So, I run an audio production doobery. Its cool, I like it. But, I was thinking. Not too hard, like, that hurts. Theres a seemingly infinite amount to learn about recording and mixing, and its pretty clear to me that its a lifelong endeavour if you wish to pursue it full-force regardless of technological advances bringing it within the reach of far more people.
But, the way the technology is going, home recording is only increasing. A lot of larger studios are already suffering because of this. People going to people like me, who run small-scale operations from their homes, or small studios with less-than-glorious rooms and facilities, compensated for to a large degree by the tech we have a available.
Thats the way its going, like it or not. So, it occurs to me that though I'm not terry date, I know enough to get people started and on a decent path in Home Recording and was thinking of offering lessons helping jimmy mcnoodles know what the hell to do with his DAW and what his DAW can do, give his room some decent treatment, basic engineering and mixing (mainly mixing as I anticipate much of the stuff will be DI and MIDI based; the proverbial axe/pod + S2 home recording format, and its relatives).
I reason that this is training competition, but also reason that if someones got the gumption to get some gear and get on with it themselves, then its more analagous to teaching guitar these days anyway; the cost of entry is pretty similar, and its just as much a skill as playing. The paradigms shifting, I was part of that shift (wouldnt do what I do otherwise), and those that would rather spend the money on an engineer and get a good recording now, not in a year or two, will still likely do so.
otoh, those same poeple are also the sort that will go and learn as much as they can on their own. I've personally always felt that a pupil that does his own research between lessons is by far and away the best kind, but many supplant the lessons with a totally autodidactic approach. I mean, I did (for guitar and recording and mixing: perhaps I learned from an idiot :lol:)
So, my questions are these:
Do you believe the above reasoning sound? No pun intended. Just kidding, of course the pun was intended. Whats your take? Do you think differently about it to anything I've said above?
Is it the sort of thing that you would use if you knew someone in your area did it? (or even online if I can puzzle out how). Poll attached for that one, if I can remember how.
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I voted afghan dave to see the poll. Whoever else did.....I really dont know what to say.
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I am kind of interested but I have found that I prefer writing and playing to know twiddling. I am my own worst enemy because if I invested a bit of time learning all the techy stuff I would probably get a lot out of it but the main thing is that I had to sacrifice my music room when my son came to live here so it is no longer something I can do readily. I have a friend with a studio who lets me have it for nothing so there is no real incentive other than the fact that he lives 60 miles away.
I am waffling- how out of character for me.
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I voted "I never knew of such a thing, daunting etc...
I have recording gear at home (pod x3 Pro, Reaper, EzDrummer & DFM) but apart from scoring drum parts on Guitar Pro and just literally recording the output from the preamp, i have no idea how to get better results from what i have.
I probably would learn as much as possible and then sod off and do it on my own, but the knowledge gained by the lessons would still have served it's purpose and be invaluable.
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I voted afghan dave to see the poll. Whoever else did.....I really dont know what to say.
:D Likewise. I don't record, but was interested ;)
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I voted afghan dave to see the poll. Whoever else did.....I really dont know what to say.
:lol:
I haven't voted yet, but "Afghan Dave" seemed to be the best option for me out of those!
I think the nearest one for me would be (or was, many years ago) number 2. But I wouldn't want to tell a prospective tutor to bugger off! More of a "that's very interesting, I'll get back to you...". In fact, that is kind of what I did with a guy in the mid-late 80s.
I got interested in recording for songwriting and demo purposes over 30 years ago. My first trip to a small professional studio as a troubadour/singer-songwriter was when I was 16 or or so. Then from 83 to 86 I went into "studios" about 4 or 5 times to record demos in various bands. Then around 87 I found I could afford a 4-track cassette-recorder when I left the band I was fronting...
I went to the guy who'd been engineering our demos for a while (I'd also done some session work for him providing vocals and/or guitar for jingles), and I asked him for some pointers. We were wondering about putting it on some sort of formal footing at first. So he set a session up, but we ended up just chatting after he'd asked me what I understood already. Because of what I understood, and the sort of musician/songwriter/aranger I was, he was convinced I could figure it for myself. And, besides, he wasn't at all convinced he needed to branch out into tutoring/mentoring, and his business certainly wasn't growing enough at the time to need another pair of hands.
I fiddled with 4-track on and off, successfully enough to satisfy me and any folks I was working with... Then in 99 or so I went to a much bigger studio with a later band. I paid a lot of attention to what was going on with the engineer this time. I was even hands-on on the desk at mix time with this one, I'd understood enough about how the desk worked and what it was doing for us.
By the time I started going digital (maybe 2004?), I already had a very good idea of what I was trying to achieve. And I found that most of what I needed to know is available on the old web. And, for me, it's all about getting a bit of info and then seeing whether I can use it - same as you, I guess :D
So, same as music lessons, I'm a kind of a "thanks but no thanks" punter. I'd rather find out by doing it myself....
However, I do think it's an avenue you should explore. How much of a market there is I dunno. And how much it would benefit the guys/gals who don't have a burning desire to find out how to do it already, I dunno (but that's not your problem if they'd like to buy the service off you! :D) - like you said, the ones that do some work themselves between lessons are the ones who are going to get somewhere. And, possibly, they don't need you?
Actually, how would you, yourself, have answered this poll when you were starting out?
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I voted afghan dave to see the poll. Whoever else did.....I really dont know what to say.
:D Likewise. I don't record, but was interested ;)
Same, I'm afraid. :oops: Maybe you shouldn't have included that option....
Recording, for me, is like a lost continent - interesting, but a total mystery. Trouble is, even if I did know how to do it I'd still lack (a) anything to actually record and (b) the skills to play it.
But best of luck with the enterprise. :)
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I'd probably be one of the first two- never got round to learning to record, but wouldn't mind if it weren't too much effort (rationale being that if it's too much effort i'd rather put that effort into my playing).
good luck. i think your reasoning is reasonably sound, but whether that translates into something in the business world, i have no idea :lol:
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I voted 'I would learn, and then record only my own material because bugger working with other musicians'.
I do a spot of recording at home myself, but there's always more to learn so it is the kind of thing I'd consider. Even though I voted bugger other musicians I do on a rare occasion help various close friends out with recordings from time to time, but it's not something I'd charge people for.
I've got a whole bunch of things I've recorded on Soundcloud if anyone is interested :) http://soundcloud.com/psystatic (http://soundcloud.com/psystatic)
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I voted Afghan Dave because none of the other responses seemed right for me.
I started recording in 1961, using 2 Ferrogragh quater inch 'half track' machines and a Brennel 'half track' with a valve 4 channel mixer. A few years later the Brennel was replaced with a Revox. All these machines ran quater inch tape at 15 and 7.5 inches per second.
Later on, as the technology became available, I moved onto 8 and 16 tracks on half in tape (Tascam), and various 16/32 channel desks.
In more recent years, I have 'gone digital' and my 'studio' setup revolves around Avid Pro Tools, with various plug in FX and a collection of condenser, ribbon, and dynamic microphones.
From the early analogue days to now, I have been completely self taught, relying on books, magazines, and of late, the internet, and most importantly (in my opinion) just DOING it, and learning by my mistakes !
I don't think we ever stop learning, and I have enjoyed my past 50 years 'at sound school' ! 8)
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Cheers chaps. All useful responses. Keep em coming.
I'll take 'Afghan Dave' to mean either Dave should produce, he would be awesome at it. He can start with producing a sexual inuendo around him 'producing', or those votes are for 'I already can record pretty well, or really dont care about this at all and that was the funnier thing to vote for', or some other reason that the other options dont fit (some vagary of circumstance, like you 'know a guy' or whatever) in which case, cool, thanks for voting, it is still a useful negative answer. Please though, if one of the main options fits you reasonably well, go for one of those :lol:
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Okies, I didn't vote yesterday... so I just voted with the "real option" that best applies (or would have applied 20 years ago, anyway) to me...
However... in no way do I literally mean that you, nor any other tutor, can, ahem, "bugger off" :lol:
I do think there is a possible market in this, and I do think some folks would get something out of it.
But, whether the average wannabee recordist would be prepared to pay as much as it should cost, or whether you can deal with him/her without going bonkers, that's another matter! :D
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Placations and the ever so diplomatic coddling of my feelings, though the spirit in which they are given is kindly appreciated, are appreciated much less than honest answers! Those do me far more good. Especially your considered and perspicacious comments andy.
Thanks for the vote :D
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Learning how to use a DAW is not difficult. Anybody that really wants to do it will find it will not take long to learn the basics. The rest you learn in detail as you need to.
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Placations and the ever so diplomatic coddling of my feelings, though the spirit in which they are given is kindly appreciated, are appreciated much less than honest answers! Those do me far more good. Especially your considered and perspicacious comments andy.
Thanks for the vote :D
Have you swallowed a $%&#ing dictionary or what ?? 8)
Kindest regards,
F.
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Ah no ! Perhaps you are 'on' drugs !
A lot of young men are these days, especially those in the music industry.
It's nothing to be ashamed about, you can get help on the NHS.
Best wishes,
F. 8)
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Learning how to use a DAW is not difficult. Anybody that really wants to do it will find it will not take long to learn the basics. The rest you learn in detail as you need to.
True enough, simplistically speaking. DAWs are not hard to learn. For most at least. Some have trouble. The rest, as has been pointed out cant be learned well, save by experience. I'm a huge fan of that, and that would be reflected in my lessons.
Psuedo-sales-pitching aside, I know that none of my clients in this will be from this forum, so I shall speak freely:
- You can pick up what you need to as you go along, yes. There are easier and much more productive ways. The phrase 'necessity is the mother of invention' comes to mind. People often find things that were already within their ability in DAWs only after it occurs to them that the capability might be there to be looked for, after they need it. A decent tutor can show its there and prepare you for its use before you need it.
- There are far more complicating factors to recording than just getting your head round a DAW. What I propose is not just DAW training. I'm well aware of the the many facilities people have to learn their DAW of choice. Recording and mixing are vastly more complex than a DAW.
I was a little bored today so I started a mind map of the broad sweeping topics involved in recording, the things that you can benefit from an understanding of, in order to plan lessons. I tapped out at 3 very densely written pages of A4 of extremely generalised subject topics. Easy 200 topic titles, between 2 hours and a lifetime each. Accordingly, I cant claim anything like total understanding of the topics I'm aware of, but I know that when I started recording, I wasnt aware that most of those topics existed at all. I could have carried on more or less indefinitely, but screw it, even going about it so egregiously simplistically I wasnt really getting anywhere, so I stopped to try and think of a better way.
- The same sort of logic (no pun, for those that use it) applies to effects. Take the humble compressor. All of them have (whether they let you control them directly or not) the same basic attack, release, threshold, ratio, makup gain. You can learn that very easily indeed. That no more really tells you what to do with one than learning the location of all the notes on a guitar tells you how to play it. Extrapolate that for every effect you can conceive of and then remember that the sound of everything affects the sound of everything else ;).
Fred: theres been a lot of good ol' fashioned working class reactionary diatribe in response to people using scary big words and typing lots of them on the board lately. I'm tired of it. Its retardation aggrandising bullshitee. I dont want to turn this thread into one of those threads but suffice to say: mocking being clever is not being clever, it is the opposite of clever /mini-rant. The reply was for Andy, I hope he appreciates it, and the humourous intention of its overwritten nature. And that line too.
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If you really feel you want to share the knowledge, you should think about writing a book, but the market seems to me to be flooded with this stuff at the moment.
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There should be another option:-
I already know enough to make decent recordings, I'd be interested in a tutor if the tutor amazes me with their work and knowledge, otherwise I'll continue to record and pick up new things as I go.
I suspect that accounts for a big big chunk of people. So it depends whether your happy teaching beginners or you want to open your market to other self taught folks who can already get decent recordings. Perhaps you could make the difference between a decent recording and a great one? So, playing devil's advocate, it would be up to you to sell yourself to me.
Some of the things I'd be interested to know:-
Who have you worked with?
What's your website?
Do you have a show reel?
Let's have some case studies.
What radio play have you had?
What are your qualifications?
How many years have you been professional?
Where is your studio?
What gear do you have?
What genre's have you recorded?
Show me some positive feedback from clients
Show me some reviews of your work
Basically, what qualifies you to be a tutor? As I say, I'm playing devil's advocate, not questioning your credentials.
You can't tell people you are great, you have to show them. It's a good first step doing the market research with this thread but asking people if they require a tutor will not get you as many positive responses as showing people they need a tutor.
So c'mon then, sell yourself!
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People often find things that were already within their ability in DAWs only after it occurs to them that the capability might be there to be looked for, after they need it. A decent tutor can show its there and prepare you for its use before you need it.
The same could be said for the manual.
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The reply was for Andy, I hope he appreciates it, and the humourous intention of its overwritten nature. And that line too.
I did, had me in stitches :lol:
The more I think about this idea though - the more I wonder whether you can actually get any (financial) return on it. There's a huge amount of work needed to prepare and deliver - is it possible to charge enough to pay for that?
And then (similar to what tomjackson's saying, I guess), I suspect that most of us into recording (or wanting to get into recording) are probably self-starting buggers who are not keen on paying a specialist until we've proved to ourselves that we can't do much better than f*ck it up if we go it alone... (you should see some of the DIY going on in our place!! :lol:). And once we've reluctantly agreed that it's been proved we're not as capable as we thought, we then want the specialist to prove that a) they can show/do it better, and b) the service on offer is worth what they're asking for it...
I think it's definitely worth giving it a go (not least because you learn a bunch more about a subject when you try to train/teach it, or even just draft up some of the materials/structure), but I'll be intrigued to hear whether it works out.
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I have no interest in recording so I voted Afghan just to play along....
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- You can pick up what you need to as you go along, yes. There are easier and much more productive ways. The phrase 'necessity is the mother of invention' comes to mind. People often find things that were already within their ability in DAWs only after it occurs to them that the capability might be there to be looked for, after they need it. A decent tutor can show its there and prepare you for its use before you need it.
I agree wholeheartedly with that, but the problem is, will the people who you want to buy your lessons?
I'm not saying it won't work or anything, I'm just pointing out that you can have the best business plan or idea in the world (even objectively), but if no-one else agrees (or at least your prospective clients), it doesn't matter.
I only say that because you said you wanted honest answers. Plus i figure it's better to assume the worst and be pleasantly surprised. :lol:
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- You can pick up what you need to as you go along, yes. There are easier and much more productive ways. The phrase 'necessity is the mother of invention' comes to mind. People often find things that were already within their ability in DAWs only after it occurs to them that the capability might be there to be looked for, after they need it. A decent tutor can show its there and prepare you for its use before you need it.
I agree wholeheartedly with that, but the problem is, will the people who you want to buy your lessons?
I'm not saying it won't work or anything, I'm just pointing out that you can have the best business plan or idea in the world (even objectively), but if no-one else agrees (or at least your prospective clients), it doesn't matter.
I only say that because you said you wanted honest answers. Plus i figure it's better to assume the worst and be pleasantly surprised. :lol:
Yes, dave, thats why I asked! People are gonna have different perspectives. Andy and Fred want to go it alone. Thats cool. Modula thinks his DAWs manual can teach him to engineer and mix. Manontheedge and psy can already do an alright job and want to step it up, and a teachers something they would entertain for that. And so on and so forth. Most people just want to get some afghan dave.
Some people are gonna want a teacher, some arent, for various reasons.
There are plenty of books around, and I'm not high enough up the food chain to do that anyway.
Great post Tom. All true, I think (for some people anyway).
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Modula thinks his DAWs manual can teach him to engineer and mix.
No. What you said was
People often find things that were already within their ability in DAWs only after it occurs to them that the capability might be there to be looked for, after they need it.
What I am saying is if people read the manual they should be aware of what a DAW can do even before they need the functionality. I said nothing about engineering skills and mixing skills. Please do not misinterperate what I say and then get all high and mighty, when its you that should have been clearer in what you were saying.
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Did you know you can teaching qualifications in things like this? I know you can get certified as an Apple Logic Pro expert. You could perhaps teach in colleges and stuff. Don't you think its something you should look into? Either that or try to get your own big studio running?
Most kids that want to learn this stuff would probably be looking to go on some kind of college course that deals with it. This may all seem like I'm trying to shitee on your idea (I'm not.. I'd love to do something like it myself) but market in this is kind of covered as I see it.
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No need to be all defensive, since it was your first post in here that suggested that reading the manual for your DAW would obviate any education in 'home recording'. I was perfectly clear, never suggested that I was just going to teach people to use a DAW and everyone else seemed to get that.
You, of course, just 'learn the rest as you need to'. *sigh* You do it that way, then. Not going out of your way to learn new things before you 'need' them (by whatever means available, not a recording teacher) is your loss. And a tremendous loss it is too. But, if thats your attitude, fine, I dont really care to argue you out of it. I should never have replied in the first place.
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Did you know you can teaching qualifications in things like this? Don't you think its something you should look into? Either that or try to get your own studio running?
I have. One home studio, one main studio and one additional studio that I freelance at. And yes, I did know that.
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All I am saying is you are not offering anything that people could not teach themselves given the motivation. Home recording and producing is not rocket science. Tomjacksons post asked some very good points. I'm sure most people would rather spend their money on kit/guitars... and that I suppose is the bottom line on what you were asking.
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All I am saying is you are not offering anything that people could not teach themselves given the motivation.
The same is true of everything. Some people still choose to seek tutelage. We arent all the same, after all.
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I voted afghan dave to see the poll. Whoever else did.....I really dont know what to say.
sorry, learnt recording and editing when I was a kid back in the analog tape machine days, worked for a couple years as soundop so well, what other option could I decently choose ? :mrgreen:
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Is it something you would do at one of your studios or e.g. travel to the persons own workspace?
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I voted afghan dave to see the poll. Whoever else did.....I really dont know what to say.
sorry, learnt recording and editing when I was a kid back in the analog tape machine days, worked for a couple years as soundop so well, what other option could I decently choose ? :mrgreen:
Ah! That makes sense.
I dont envy you! 'Undo' being looking around for the bit of tape on the floor and sticking it back in....ouch :lol:
I mean, some people, who shall remain nameless (no one on this forum) I have edited the living shitee out of. If we still used tape, I'm pretty sure I'd still be doing it now.
Ian; both, probably, but likely main (the owners of the building the studio is in are big on teaching stuff) or home. Otherwise I struggle to see how I wouldnt just end up mixing and engineering for them, and though thats my normal job, its not really the point. Suck it and see on that I think; case by case basis, but it will be starting at one of my places.
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I assume you would have to be pretty broad in the choice of software you use. I know Logic Pro and Ableton. Im currently teaching a mate how to use Ableton to produce electro house music. He's getting on pretty well with it now. The trouble I found to begin with was that his PC was in such a cr@p state it would not run it smoothly (even though it was well specced enough, it was just in a mess). That and the fact he wanted to run before he could walk.
I don't suppose you know what you would be wanting to charge for the service at this stage?
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As you say, a DAW is not hard to learn. I dont really intend to train people in the exact procedures in the DAWs they use, more in the availability of the bread and butter features of all DAWs and what practical benefit they are, how they can integrate them into their workflow in tracking and mixing. I'm pretty to very fluent with Sonar, Reaper and Cubase and familiar enough with PT and Audition to be able to dig out what I want when I need to.
That said, I dont want to make it about the software. Never did. Thats a battle I cant win. I'd need to have all DAWs myself, for a start (And I only have sonar and reaper). It'll be about the methods and techniques, of which the bread and butter features of DAWs are just a very (very, very) small portion.
Good point on the PC side. Thats a deciding factor in using my gear. Though, optimisation of a PC for use as an audio machine is something I could cover (or point people toward the proper methods at least; it doesnt really feel like the sort of thing a lesson should be devoted to, more a box to tick as part of the process).
Price; lets just say 'same as guitar lessons'.
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It's a good idea to teach recording.Pretty much anything can be self taught, like astrophysics etc, but you'll waste loads of time getting to a good level even if you develop interesting nuances as a self taught.Also having a tutor doesn't stop you teaching yourself but it may open doors which allow quicker progression.
Go for it, you lose nothing by trying.
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Yes, dave, thats why I asked! People are gonna have different perspectives. Andy and Fred want to go it alone. Thats cool. Modula thinks his DAWs manual can teach him to engineer and mix. Manontheedge and psy can already do an alright job and want to step it up, and a teachers something they would entertain for that. And so on and so forth. Most people just want to get some afghan dave.
Some people are gonna want a teacher, some arent, for various reasons.
There are plenty of books around, and I'm not high enough up the food chain to do that anyway.
Yep, of course :)
I've just seen plenty of threads online (not here, on other forums) where someone made a thread to try to gauge interest, and all the forum people were like "that's an awesome idea!", but then when money had to be handed over, suddenly all these people were strangely quiet :lol:
talk's cheap, in other words. Not saying this forum is as bad as some other ones, because it probably isn't, but just it's worth bearing in mind. :)
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i've always liked following my own way, so selected the 'bugger off' option.. not that i'm telling you to bugger off or anything ;)
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Too true dave. Such is the nature of things though.
gwem, I sympathise entirely. If I planned on being offended by the 'bugger off' option, I wouldnt have phrased it like that! ;)
Cheers for the input chaps :)
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I too went for the Afghan Dave option :lol:
Just because I did music at college, then recording at night school and then worked in a commercial studio for a while so don't feel I'd get too much out of something like that.
Had I not done all my past training and experience, then it's something I'd consider sure.
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Too true dave. Such is the nature of things though.
yep
sometimes i sound a bit pessimistic or whatever, but at least I'm sorta being honest. As you said earlier in the thread, honest answers are more useful than diplomatic ones which might give you the wrong end of the stick. :)
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So do 15 of us win Afghan Dave or something? Where's my bloody prize, eh?
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I assumed that Afghan Dave would be delivering some sort of training, any sort of training he fancies, to the folk that have requested it...
In my experience, though, a class of 15 is getting a bit large for proper hands-on tuition. He's probably going to have to run more than one session...
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I've just f**kin' seen this topic! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I feel kinda touched that 15 of you requested my training, which is ironic because 15 of you will be "kinda touched" during my training! :P
I'll have confidentiallity agreements and legal waivers that need signing in the post to you all as soon as I receive your home addresses and bank sort codes.
I'm really looking forward to this!
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I've just f**kin' seen this topic! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I feel kinda touched that 15 of you requested my training, which is ironic because 15 of you will be "kinda touched" during my training! :P
I'll have confidentiallity agreements and legal waivers that need signing in the post to you all as soon as I receive your home addresses and bank sort codes.
I'm really looking forward to this!
:lol:
No 'production' jokes?
Not even an 'I'll engineer you'
Tut tut. I know your punmanship is of a higher standard that this.
Anywho, I fired up this little project (i.e. advertised it) and have the first pupil lined up now. He was encouraged to come to me by one of my recording clients actually, which was a bit touching in itself :lol: Heres hoping it goes well.
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Here's to touching our pupils in the same way that they have touched us... Well done!
It bodes well for you that one of your other clients made him come for the first time. If you handle him well you'll have him coming again and again. :P
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Here's to touching our pupils in the same way that they have touched us... Well done!
It bodes well for you that one of your other clients made him come for the first time. If you handle him well you'll have him coming again and again. :P
:lol: