Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: BMA on October 26, 2012, 10:35:24 AM
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Hi folks
I have 2 all-mahogany LP-style guitars (Cort) that have some cheap Mighty Mite Pickups that I would like to replace, P90s for one and some PAF-type humbuckers for the other. Both guitars sound full and warm and could need a little more brightness. The resonant peak of both is between 400 and 800Hz when playing bar chords (straight into a DI, no amp). After listening to a lot of demos I've pretty much narrowed it down to SM's vs TM's and MQ's vs Manhattans (but that doesn't mean that I'm not open to other suggestions). I'd appreciate it a lot if you could share some of your experiences.
I'm playing mostly blues, clean with just some tube break-up or a tiny bit of overdrive, i like a thick/fat yet articulate, warm, round sound with a sweet, smooth top-end. My amp is a hand wired Princeton reverb clone with 12" speaker. I'm mostly playing with the neck PU.
-Do you think that the mules are bright enough for an all mahogany guitar? I'm not looking for a bright guitar but it should be able to cut trough a mix.
-Does anyone know in which frequency range the "dip" of the SM is?
-I was also thinking about a mule for the bridge and a SM for the neck, but BKP support told my that they don't advise mixing A2 and A4. Does anyone have experience with this combination?
-I also asked them about about SM's with A4, but they replied that they do not offer such a thing, although I've read on here that some people have them. Did you swap the magnets yourself or how did you get those? and how do they compare to the A2 SM?
-How useful do you find the sound of these PUs when splitted? I'm not yet sure whether I'll go for a 50s wiring or 4-conductor with push/pull for coils split.
-I'm quite sure that I'll be liking the MQ in the neck position, but it might actually be to bright for my taste in the bridge position - i tend to prefer some thing more mid-rangy in the bridge. How does the MQ compare to an "average" P90 in terms of brightness?
-I've been thinking about a Manhattan for the bridge and a MQ for the neck, but A3/A4 sounds like a rather weird combination. Has anyone tried this or can predict how this would sound?
-One of the 2 guitars is much more resonant than the other - when played unplugged it almost sounds like there was some reverb. Would you rather put the humbuckers or the P90s in this one ?
Now that was a whole bunch of questions, I'd greatly appreciate any answers.
Kind regards,
Basil
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Welcome!
I'll have a go at answering your questions:
-Do you think that the mules are bright enough for an all mahogany guitar? I'm not looking for a bright guitar but it should be able to cut trough a mix.
They will be bright enough, yes, with a strong-ish mid and upper mid range.
-Does anyone know in which frequency range the "dip" of the SM is?
Not a freaking clue! I go by my ears for tone ;)
-I was also thinking about a mule for the bridge and a SM for the neck, but BKP support told my that they don't advise mixing A2 and A4. Does anyone have experience with this combination?
I've not tried it personally, but I believe others have. AV and AIV is a more normal mix.
-I also asked them about about SM's with A4, but they replied that they do not offer such a thing, although I've read on here that some people have them. Did you swap the magnets yourself or how did you get those? and how do they compare to the A2 SM?
It used to be an option until a few years ago. I had an AIV SM and it was clearer and more open than the AII version, but it lost some warmth and thickness.
-How useful do you find the sound of these PUs when splitted? I'm not yet sure whether I'll go for a 50s wiring or 4-conductor with push/pull for coils split.
I personally don't like split humbuckers as I find them too weak. They're OK if you usually play metal and want to drastically cut your output for a clean tone. PRS are now doing a trick with resistors to fatten up the splits a bit, you may want to look into that.
-I'm quite sure that I'll be liking the MQ in the neck position, but it might actually be to bright for my taste in the bridge position - i tend to prefer some thing more mid-rangy in the bridge. How does the MQ compare to an "average" P90 in terms of brightness?
The MQ is a fat and thick beast, I'd say slightly fatter and hotter than a "normal" P90.
-I've been thinking about a Manhattan for the bridge and a MQ for the neck, but A3/A4 sounds like a rather weird combination. Has anyone tried this or can predict how this would sound?
I think that would be very, very odd - especially as the MQ is hotter. I'd stick with matched sets.
-One of the 2 guitars is much more resonant than the other - when played unplugged it almost sounds like there was some reverb. Would you rather put the humbuckers or the P90s in this one ?
I'd use that guitar for cleaner tones, so I'd fit whichever pickups you're likely to play with less gain/dirt.
Hope that helps!
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Thanks a lot for your answers, it sure does help.
Pity they don't make the SM A4 anymore, from what your saying i think i would have liked it in the neck with a mule in the bridge, since the neck is already very warm and fat sounding.
As for the coil-spliingt, I haven't played many guitars with that option so my experience is somewhat limited, but on those two guitars i have to say i like it. On the one that has high output PUs the splitted neck is my favorite sound (I just don't like high outputs), and on the other which has some cheap vintage-type PUs the frequency response doesn't change much but the sound gets more percussive, snappy, can be useful depending on the context. But I'll definitely check out that PRS wiring.
For mixing the Manhattan and the MQ, its probably true thats a bad idea, but the Manhattan bridge has 7,5k and the MQ neck has 6,9k, so in terms of output it should work. But I've never seen a guitar with an A3/A4 combination and the reason is probably just that its not very good sounding so I'll forget about it.
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You can't go by DC reading alone - the magnets are different, and possibly even the wire used - so I wouldn't assume anything. If in doubt, get in touch with the BKP team :)
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Thanks a lot for your answers, it sure does help.
Pity they don't make the SM A4 anymore, from what your saying i think i would have liked it in the neck with a mule in the bridge, since the neck is already very warm and fat sounding.
I do have a Mule neck on a rather dark SG and it JustWork(tm) for these bluesy tones. Warm & fat indeed, but still clear and fluid, and very vocal.
As for the coil-spliingt
Coil splitting usually don't work fine with low-outputs 'buckers - the signal is just way too weak. Works better with higher output 'buckers where each coil is already as hot a fender SC.
Also I always found the serie/parallel switch to be a better option than coil split - retains the humbucking effect while still operating like a SC - or, more exactly, like the middle position between 2 SC but without the phase cancellation induced "quack" effect and output loss.
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I do have a Mule neck on a rather dark SG and it JustWork(tm) for these bluesy tones. Warm & fat indeed, but still clear and fluid, and very vocal.
Sounds like I'm sold. :D Thanks
How do you calculate the output of a split humbucker? Is it just the half of normal DC reading? I find the split sound of the 8,2k stock humbucker is quite useful, even if it doesn't sound like a strat. Although there is indeed a big drop in the output which needs to be compensated on the amp, so its not for switching in the middle of a song. But then again its mainly useful because the sound is more articulate and I'm quite sure that the BKP wont lack this quality even in humbucking mode.
I've never really liked the serial wiring, to me it sounds like the "worst of both worlds". And that "quack" on positions 2 and 4 is about the only thing I really like on strats. To each its own.
So it will be either split or 50s wiring.
Btw do you ever roll off the tone when using the neck pick up? Because I'm thinking about putting no tone pot for the neck since 4 pots would require serious modification to the guitar and i don't like master tones and i want individual volume knobs.
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I do have a Mule neck on a rather dark SG and it JustWork(tm) for these bluesy tones. Warm & fat indeed, but still clear and fluid, and very vocal.
Sounds like I'm sold. :D Thanks
How do you calculate the output of a split humbucker? Is it just the half of normal DC reading? I find the split sound of the 8,2k stock humbucker is quite useful, even if it doesn't sound like a strat. Although there is indeed a big drop in the output which needs to be compensated on the amp, so its not for switching in the middle of a song. But then again its mainly useful because the sound is more articulate and I'm quite sure that the BKP wont lack this quality even in humbucking mode.
I've never really liked the serial wiring, to me it sounds like the "worst of both worlds". And that "quack" on positions 2 and 4 is about the only thing I really like on strats. To each its own.
So it will be either split or 50s wiring.
I got A SM bridge in my strat and a switch to split it and it works well. There's not much volume drop and it gives a stratish sound which might be halped by the fact that the pup is in a strat :wink:
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Yeah a strat definitely helps to make a PU sound stratish ;-)
But like I said im not a strat fan (unless its in the hands of Mark Knopfler) but if the sound is useful i'll probably go for it - I just like to have some options.
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mules are the most amazing humbuckers I ever played
I don't know how they work in other woods, like alder or basswood, but I can't imagine any mahogany bodied guitar not sounding absolutely awesome with that set
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I had a set of Mules in an LP and I didn't like them at all - they just sounded really bright and thin. There was clearly some strange interaction of frequencies going on in that guitar as every one else seems to rave about them.
I personally don't find them full enough sounding, unlike the Stormy Mondays which I love!
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I personally don't find them full enough sounding, unlike the Stormy Mondays which I love!
I didn't find the SM (neck) full enough sounding (in a Flying V). I think the AII softens the tone, takes any harshness out of it, but it was nowhere near a thick/fat sound (IMO).
I've always assumed the Mules would sound that bit fatter, but still haven't tried 'em.
Personally I'd definitely rather have something a bit hotter than SMs in an all-mahogany guitar, especially in the bridge position, but for someone who plays mostly clean blues they may be just the ticket.
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Personally I'd definitely rather have something a bit hotter than SMs in an all-mahogany guitar, especially in the bridge position, but for someone who plays mostly clean blues they may be just the ticket.
I don't think hot winding and all-mahhogany is a good combination. A hotter PU means less treble, more mids and more compression, you are likely to end up a bit on the dull and lifeless side. Out of the two guitars, the one that has the vintage output PUs sounds way better, even with high gain. Clearer, more open and a lot more depth. Imho hot PUs only make sense if you want that more mid-focused ton, but i bet a lot of players who use high output PUs would prefer somethng with fewer windings, they just never used them. People tend to think high output is for high gain, low output is for clean, but thats just not true.
I had a set of Mules in an LP and I didn't like them at all - they just sounded really bright and thin. There was clearly some strange interaction of frequencies going on in that guitar as every one else seems to rave about them.
I personally don't find them full enough sounding, unlike the Stormy Mondays which I love!
What year was that LP from? Gibson sticks to using only south-american mahogany, and the fact that these specimen have been almost eliminated means that they have to use even lower quality. The "good" mahogany (mostly swietenia macrophylla) on the old gibson came from the coastal regions where the climate is ideal, resulting in a light-weight wood with homogeneous structure which is what gives mahogany its warmth and fullness. But today you simply wont find any mahogany in the coastal areas anymore so today's honduras mahogany comes from higher altitude regions with a different climate, resulting in denser, less homogeneous wood which sounds thinner and brighter. Beside the ecological aspect, thats the main reason i prefer kaya over "real" mahogany. Ever noticed how lots of newer LPs, despite being chambered, aren't really lighter than the older ones? That's the reason. And that of course has its influence on tone.
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I don't think hot winding and all-mahhogany is a good combination. A hotter PU means less treble, more mids and more compression, you are likely to end up a bit on the dull and lifeless side.
I only said a bit hotter. :wink:
I'm no fan of hot pickups either, I was thinking more (for my own taste) of something like a Riff Raff bridge and Mule neck. So still basically vintage, but just that little bit more "rock" than the Stormy Mondays. Low output AII pickups are too polite for me, except perhaps in a semi.
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Ok i get what you mean, would probably be a nice combination, but according to BKP tech support the mule has a sweeter edge and I'm not a big fan of A5 so I think I'll like the mule better.
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Mine was a '96 Standard.
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so its not a chambered model but still has the "swiss-cheese holes". What PUs did you end up with in there?
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I've got Mules in a all mahogany bolt-on Saint Blues. Superb set, very balanced, very vocal. Great for jazzy stuff, blues, bluesrock, rock and hardrock.
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gibson uses whatever they find
they do use khaya and other african mahogany species
they even used cedro rosa (spanish cedar) back in the 50's
most of the modern gibsons I've played definitely felt like honduras, but my '73 custom sounds quite different from all of them
I've had other guitars with brazilian mahogany (same as honduras), and even the 70's ones still clearly sounded like the others, despite of the age, which is not the case with my '73 custom, and that makes me think if mine isn't african mahog
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I had a set of Mules in an LP and I didn't like them at all - they just sounded really bright and thin. There was clearly some strange interaction of frequencies going on in that guitar as every one else seems to rave about them.
I personally don't find them full enough sounding, unlike the Stormy Mondays which I love!
height is everything
most low output models sound thin in my les pauls, unless I get them pretty close to the strings
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I do have a Mule neck on a rather dark SG and it JustWork(tm) for these bluesy tones. Warm & fat indeed, but still clear and fluid, and very vocal.
Sounds like I'm sold. :D
That was not meant to sell you the Mule neck but if the above description talks to you then you should definitly consider it as an option.
How do you calculate the output of a split humbucker? Is it just the half of normal DC reading?
DC resistance doesn't equate directly to output. Output level is a factor of wire type, wire gauge, number of turns, magnet type, magnet size, construction (magnet placement wrt/ bobins and pole pieces) and probably yet another couple thangs.
I'm not an electronic engineer but AFAIK on a perfectly balanced 'bucker, split coil operation should indeed yield something about half the normal (series) output - but halving the pups output level doesn't mean you have half the volume (SPL is log, not lin).
I find the split sound of the 8,2k stock humbucker is quite useful, even if it doesn't sound like a strat.
The main difference between G and F pups is not HB vs SC - else a Wide Range (I mean a _true_ Wide Range) would sound like a PAF and a P90 would sound like a Strat or Tele pup -, it's about how the pup is built, physically. Fender SCs and the original Wide Range bucker use magnet pole pieces within the bobin, while Gibson's pups - P90 and 'buckers - use metal pole pieces and have the magnet(s) under the bobin. This alone makes a huge difference (I once played a P90s SG where the P90s had been rebuilt Fender-style so I can tell). Also, the bobin height and width makes a difference too, which is why a (true) Jazzmaster pup sounds somewhere between a Tele / Strat pup and a P90 (and not that far from the hacked P90s on that SG).
But anyway:
But then again its mainly useful because the sound is more articulate and I'm quite sure that the BKP wont lack this quality even in humbucking mode.
A bucker will be "in humbucking mode" whether serial or parallel. But yes, articulation, definition and note separation are part of the BKP signature, and their low-output 'buckers have truly splendid clean tones and dynamic. Strange as it might be, I often use my SG or Hofner (semi-hollow, RR set) to play early Dire Straits stuff - not that they sound anything like a strat, but the response and dynamic are better than what I get from my strat (MiJ / Texas Special pups), specially when finger-picking.
I've never really liked the serial wiring, to me it sounds like the "worst of both worlds".
I have a 4-ways switch on my Tele and I beg to disagree.
And that "quack" on positions 2 and 4 is about the only thing I really like on strats.
You won't get this from a 'bucker wire parallel - much of that quack comes from phase cancellation due to the distance between the coils.
So it will be either split or 50s wiring.
You can have both FWIW. All my guitars - including the strat and tele - are wired gibson 50s way.
Btw do you ever roll off the tone when using the neck pick up?
With 'buckers ? Nope. I don't even know why there's a tone pot here :mrgreen:
But since I have good pups (and 50s wiring) on my guitars, I do use the tone pot on the bridge pup sometimes (talking about 'buckers here), and my volume pot is now my best friend.
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so its not a chambered model but still has the "swiss-cheese holes". What PUs did you end up with in there?
I believe that Les Paul is long gone. Mr Twinfan has made some subsequent purchases. :P
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Btw do you ever roll off the tone when using the neck pick up?
With 'buckers ? Nope. I don't even know why there's a tone pot here :mrgreen:
I do. I love that neck pickup with tone on 0 sound!
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Btw do you ever roll off the tone when using the neck pick up?
With 'buckers ? Nope. I don't even know why there's a tone pot here :mrgreen:
I do. I love that neck pickup with tone on 0 sound!
I guess that meant to be a joke??
Anyway thanks everyone for your inputs, specially BigB for you detailed post. The mule was my favorite before i opened this thread, based on sound clip and description, i was just unsure whether it will be bright enough for an all-mahogany guitar, but you eliminated my doubts. Btw there was no pun intended when i said i don't like serial wiring, its just that it never really did it for me. Both split and serial reproduces some of the characteristics of a traditional SC, but not all, and i just happens that i prefer those of a split humbucker over these of a serial wired one - at least on the guitars i tried.
@ Eric Hellstyle
My information about woods used by gibson comes from several luthiers as well as from an official gibson statement. There might be exceptions, although probably not a lot. But if you have a LP that differs from the rest, i doubt very much that this one is kaya. You just won't be able to feel - or probably even hear - a diefference between kaya and swietenia, even with a microscope its really hard to see the difference. It could be entandrophragma or, most likely, just a swietenia grown in a strange climate. This is an often overlooked factor, but it plays a huge role.
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Btw do you ever roll off the tone when using the neck pick up?
With 'buckers ? Nope. I don't even know why there's a tone pot here :mrgreen:
I do. I love that neck pickup with tone on 0 sound!
I guess that meant to be a joke??
I don't think so :lol:
I quite like it too, for distroted single note leads. It has such a smooth and throaty sound :D
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Oh I see but you need quite some gain to get back some mids/treble from the overdriven tube then. Not my cup of tea, but we all got different tastes and thats what makes music interesting after all.
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Anyway thanks everyone for your inputs, specially BigB for you detailed post. The mule was my favorite before i opened this thread, based on sound clip and description, i was just unsure whether it will be bright enough for an all-mahogany guitar, but you eliminated my doubts.
Don't take me wrong, it makes for a quite warm tone. FWIW the RiffRaff neck has much more clarity and "single-coilishness", but then you loose most of the vocality.
Btw there was no pun intended when i said i don't like serial wiring, its just that it never really did it for me. Both split and serial reproduces some of the characteristics of a traditional SC,
I think you are confusing serial for parallel here. Serial wiring is the standard operation mode for a 'bucker.
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Btw do you ever roll off the tone when using the neck pick up?
With 'buckers ? Nope. I don't even know why there's a tone pot here :mrgreen:
I do. I love that neck pickup with tone on 0 sound!
I guess that meant to be a joke??
I don't think so :lol:
I quite like it too, for distroted single note leads. It has such a smooth and throaty sound :D
itamar101 definitely has me sussed! :lol: It was not a joke, I really do love the neck pickup with the tone rolled right down (and the bridge pickup with the tone on 10!)
Getting back on topic, I would be very surprised if the Mule's not bright enough for a mahogany guitar. If it's not, and you're not keen on the AV Riff Raffs, then you really are only left with Stormy Mondays (or PG Blues...)
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I think you are confusing serial for parallel here. Serial wiring is the standard operation mode for a 'bucker.
Ooops, my bad.
And i definitely looking for a warm tone, like i already said, just not a dull one. And the vocal quality seems more appealing to me since I'll put P90s in the other one and I also have a tele, which is by far my favorite SC guitar.
So it's going to be MQs and Mules. Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences.
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Btw do you ever roll off the tone when using the neck pick up?
With 'buckers ? Nope. I don't even know why there's a tone pot here :mrgreen:
I do. I love that neck pickup with tone on 0 sound!
I guess that meant to be a joke??
Anyway thanks everyone for your inputs, specially BigB for you detailed post. The mule was my favorite before i opened this thread, based on sound clip and description, i was just unsure whether it will be bright enough for an all-mahogany guitar, but you eliminated my doubts. Btw there was no pun intended when i said i don't like serial wiring, its just that it never really did it for me. Both split and serial reproduces some of the characteristics of a traditional SC, but not all, and i just happens that i prefer those of a split humbucker over these of a serial wired one - at least on the guitars i tried.
@ Eric Hellstyle
My information about woods used by gibson comes from several luthiers as well as from an official gibson statement. There might be exceptions, although probably not a lot. But if you have a LP that differs from the rest, i doubt very much that this one is kaya. You just won't be able to feel - or probably even hear - a diefference between kaya and swietenia, even with a microscope its really hard to see the difference. It could be entandrophragma or, most likely, just a swietenia grown in a strange climate. This is an often overlooked factor, but it plays a huge role.
yeah, read a lot of stuff from luthiers and gibson documents as well
most were probably from central america and mexico (and brazil on early 80's), but I've seen some 70's guitars with weird wood grain patterns that don't match any modern gibson and other real swietenia mahogany guitars
some luthiers claim they send 50's les paul wood samples for analysis and found woods from different sources, and some were african (and khaya is not the only african mahogany)
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And i definitely looking for a warm tone, like i already said, just not a dull one.
A couple Q&D samples - please pardon the floppy and uninspired playing :oops:
Amp is mostly a variation on the blackface Deluxe Reverb thru a Marshall 1965 cab (4x10 celestion), recorded with a zoom H2 about 5 feets away from the cab / 5 feets from the ground. First sample is direct to amp, second with a Xotic EP booster, third with Xotic EP Booster and TS808 clone. The perceived sound in the room is a bit less bassy but I didn't want to postprocess anything.
http://sd-31734.dedibox.fr/samples/STE-018.mp3 (http://sd-31734.dedibox.fr/samples/STE-018.mp3)
http://sd-31734.dedibox.fr/samples/STE-019.mp3 (http://sd-31734.dedibox.fr/samples/STE-019.mp3)
http://sd-31734.dedibox.fr/samples/STE-020.mp3 (http://sd-31734.dedibox.fr/samples/STE-020.mp3)
HTH.
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Thanks bigB, I like the sound on the first one!
yeah, read a lot of stuff from luthiers and gibson documents as well
most were probably from central america and mexico (and brazil on early 80's), but I've seen some 70's guitars with weird wood grain patterns that don't match any modern gibson and other real swietenia mahogany guitars
some luthiers claim they send 50's les paul wood samples for analysis and found woods from different sources, and some were african (and khaya is not the only african mahogany)
Its just a guess, but those 70's LP's might well be the "experimental time" where they were trying out some new woods. But the term "african mahogany" refers generally to kaya, although some people also include the earlier mentioned entandrophragma. Btw there are also a few allochthonous growing swietenia macrophylla trees in west africa, but they are not considered to be african mahogany. But my point was basically just that you probably won't notice any difference in sound, feel or appearance between kaya and swietenia and that the currently available kaya is of better quality than the latter.
After all i have to say, even if i find all that stuff interesting, two pieces of wood are never the same, even if they're from the same specimen, thats why I prefer a good "copy" (kaya) to a lower quality "original". Then again quality is, at least to some degree, subjective: some high gain players prefer the heavier mahogany from the mountain regions, because it can take more distortion before getting muddy. And btw if there is any speciemen that, from a biological pov deserves to be called "real mahogany", that would be the swietenia mahogani and not swietenia macrophylla.
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As Phil said, I sold the Les Paul a while ago after playing with heights and pole pieces a lot. I've played Mules in a few guitars and have never loved them, but I'm aware I'm in the minority :)
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It would get boring if everybody faves Mules. Killing this forum more or less. :)