Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: stonehenge on February 26, 2013, 07:00:45 PM
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I have two mule A IV bridges in two different guitars. Great as they are, I feel the same in two guitars a bit pointless and want to change one. What would you think of putting in an AV in a Mule? Would this be ok/good, or just mess up the voicing as it's wound for an AIV ?
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I'm sure I remember reading that Tim stopped offering custom options because he felt he had got the right voicings for his pickups and didn't want to sell custom orders that he thought wouldn't work. However, the pickup is yours to do with as you wish so why not try it ? Have you swapped magnets before ?
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Yes, magnet change is no problem, but no magnet to try yet. Thought it might be something some one else has tried and wether it worked well or not. I agree, that if Tim was trying to get a specific paf sound, an AIV in mule is used to get that tone and messing about with magnets would detract from that. I have tried a black dog and it was too hot/thick, and a riff raff that was a bit shrill, so looking for something in-between those two thats not a mule just so's I don't have two bridges the same.
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I have a couple of A5 mules and I like them , although the A4 is possibly sweeter sounding.
But if you have one going spare , and are confident to do it , then go ahead.
It will void your warranty but nothing more serious (unlike jailbreaking a phone - now becoming a criminal offence apparently)
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if you didn't like the riff raff, I don't see the point
it should sound a lot like a riff raff, but a little bassier and more scooped due to the offset coils
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The reason for not liking the riff raff was a very trebly top end, which the mule doesn't have. Are you saying the AV magnet in mules will give that very high treble? What do you suggest as an alternative to a Mule? I found BDogs too hot and thick.
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it should sound a lot like a riff raff, but a little bassier and more scooped due to the offset coils
That was my thought too - sort of halfway between a Riff Raff and a VHII?
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it should sound a lot like a riff raff, but a little bassier and more scooped due to the offset coils
That was my thought too - sort of halfway between a Riff Raff and a VHII?
Sounds good to me!
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Might try a VH2, although that has a bit of brightness.
I like an Emerald a lot - still A5 but 43 wire gauge - nice in a Gibson!
Bit like a punchier Mule to my ears.
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The reason for not liking the riff raff was a very trebly top end, which the mule doesn't have. Are you saying the AV magnet in mules will give that very high treble? What do you suggest as an alternative to a Mule? I found BDogs too hot and thick.
That's what it'll do; give it more bass and highs, but that's a rough description. It'll change the feel too, and midrange response.
As an alternative, it depends on where you want the output. The only AV bridge pickup on the Mule output level is the Riff Raff. If you found Black Dog too hot, that'll probably be the case with Abraxas and Emerald too. Emerald being the brighter of the two.
In your case, I would probably go for the AII PAF, Stormy Monday. Vintage output, bright but sweet. And a nice differing voice from the Mules :) I look at them and I think 'The GAS is strong with this one'.
What kind of a guitar would the pickup(s) be going to?
-Zaned
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With the greater offset in the coils of The Mule you will find that the highs become more pronounced with an Alnico V magnet which is why the Riff Raff offers a better voicing for AV. Obviously the type of AV used is important - the majority of AV used around the world today is anisotropic which does power the high end quite aggressively compared to anisotropic AV(much less commonly used) which produces a much warmer response in the bass and high end. I find that most players prefer anisotropic AV as it produces a punchier tone and feel which is what is expected from an AV powered pickup whereas the response/feel of isotropic is more polite.
Alnico IV is isotropic hence the reason I partner it with the coil offset in The Mule - not only for historical accuracy but more importantly the best tonal result.
If you have ended up with 2 Mule bridges in similar guitars you could change the character/response slightly by adapting the pots and caps you use. I use 300K pots in one of my LPs loaded with Mules which produce a lovely controlled high end but not at the expense of note definition. I then partner that with 0.015ufd Jensen caps. It's a different but subtle take on The Mule which produces a complementary voice compared to my other Mule loaded LP. I would normally advocate 550K pots and 0.022ufd PIO for the bridge tone and 0.015ufd PIO for the neck which is a very tried and tested approach in a LP for great vintage tone and feel but the 300K pots and 0.015ufd PIOs do produce a good result from a brighter LP without moving out of the ballpark tone of the pickups.
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If you have ended up with 2 Mule bridges in similar guitars you could change the character/response slightly by adapting the pots and caps you use. I use 300K pots in one of my LPs loaded with Mules which produce a lovely controlled high end but not at the expense of note definition. I then partner that with 0.015ufd Jensen caps. It's a different but subtle take on The Mule which produces a complementary voice compared to my other Mule loaded LP. I would normally advocate 550K pots and 0.022ufd PIO for the bridge tone and 0.015ufd PIO for the neck which is a very tried and tested approach in a LP for great vintage tone and feel but the 300K pots and 0.015ufd PIOs do produce a good result from a brighter LP without moving out of the ballpark tone of the pickups.
Very interesting, and also intriguing to see Tim advocating a particular application for 300k pots, given the general derision heaped on Gibson for using 300k on many of their guitars! :wink:
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300K pots and 0.015ufd cap with 50s wiring which can work well for brighter LPs - Gibson use 0.047ufd and 0.022ufd caps with modern wiring which doesn't seem to produce such a good result.
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Is isotropic/anisotropic the same thing as oriented/un-oriented, which I see people talking about a lot on the Seymour Duncan Forums in relation to Alnico 5?
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Well, some great responses, so thanks to all. Think the AV giving more highs is not where I want to be going. Stormy Monday, that's a thought, a bit too smooth, but heh, great tone, and may consider. Tim's approach of 300k 15 pio is not something I thought about, guess that's my blinkered thinking due to the almost unanimous 'swap out 300 for 500' advice on lp forum.(bridge 500 pot 22 pio 50's wiring at present) Since the pot swap is an easy job, and I have a few lying around, I will try that, when I get hold of a 15 pio. Soo, as my old 300 pots are all mixed, any idea how to differenciate between a 300 gibson tone and volume pot? Any serial no references ?
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Well, some great responses, so thanks to all. Think the AV giving more highs is not where I want to be going. Stormy Monday, that's a thought, a bit too smooth, but heh, great tone, and may consider. Tim's approach of 300k 15 pio is not something I thought about, guess that's my blinkered thinking due to the almost unanimous 'swap out 300 for 500' advice on lp forum.
300K will indeed eat too much trebles for
1/ neck pickup
2/ hotter pickups
3/ modern wiring unless you add a treble bleed.
With a lower output (hence brighter) pup on the bridge position of a bright LP with the right cap and wiring, well, why not if what you want is a warmer bridge tone. Playing with pots and caps values is a good way to fine-tune your guitar's tone.
Soo, as my old 300 pots are all mixed, any idea how to differenciate between a 300 gibson tone and volume pot? Any serial no references ?
As far as I know Gibson uses log pots everywhere (volume and tone), but the simplest way to check the taper is to check DC resistance across the central lug and any of the outer lugs. First get the pot's real value (which would be anywhere between 270 and 330K), then turn the pot halfway. If you're at real value / 2 (ie somewhere between 135 and 165K) then it's a linear, else it's a log.
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Ok. Thought they would use log for volume and linear for tone ? I will try your resistence test. What did you use pot cap wise for your riff raff (bridge ?) How did it compare to Mule in bridge ? THe RR almost seems the way to go, but I just remember it being very trebly, almost like an SD pearly gates, but didn't have a mule then to compare. Maybe it's changed a bit...
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No, the Riff Raff hasn't changed at all in spec and it is an extremely popular bridge humbucker in LPs for blues through to hard rock and metal.
The 300K pots do work really well in both bridge and neck position in my LP, definitely no loss of high end response in this particular LP whatsoever when used with '50s wiring and 0.015ufd PIOs. Obviously that doesn't mean it'll work in every LP but it's certainly worth a try if you have some 300K pots handy and is quick/easy to do.
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Thanks Tim. I know the riff raff is a favourite and gaining popularity, probably due to the Pagey tone requests. It almost seems the most obvious pup to sit in my other LP, both have mule neck. I can remember passing it on though, as it was very high trebly. Just wondered if over time it was wound a bit different. Now I know. Do you use the 300k in bridge of your riff raff shod LP , or are we talking just the mule? Thanks again for your input, very educational.
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My '59 clone has a Riff Raff bridge and Mule neck combo with 300K pots and 0.022ufd caps with '50s wiring - it's always sounded good and this is the guitar I was able to compare to Jimmy Page's No.1 when it came to the workshop a while back. Tonally it was extremely close to Jimmy's '59 so I've always left it with the 300K pots as I'm loathe to change anything with it sounding so good. This was the LP I was playing with the band at the Great British Guitar show this past weekend.
My other Riff Raff/Mule loaded LP, made by Dave Dearnaley, has 550K pots and 0.022ufd cap on bridge tone and 0.015ufd cap on the neck tone - it's a slightly darker voiced LP compared to the '59 clone so those pots/caps suit that very well(wired '50s style).
I have another Mule loaded LP which has 300K pots and 0.015ufd caps all round - extremely detailed tone - and another loaded with Stormy Monday humbuckers with 550K pots and 0.022ufd cap on the bridge tone and 0.015ufd cap on the neck tone(all PIOs). Basically I treat each guitar individually - no two are ever the same so I've always tried to bring out the best in each instrument and that usually means a flexible approach to get the right combo of pickups, pots and caps.
I would always advocate 550K pots and 0.022ufd bridge tone/0.015ufd neck tone as a good starting point when it comes to pot/cap choice in a LP - it's tried, tested and works for a lot of players. However it's not a hard and fast rule and it's always good to experiment.
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I've tried using linear tone pots and I don't recommend it - the pot seems to do almost nothing for most of its range and then roll off all the highs very quickly at the end, making it IMO harder to do anything useful with it.
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I have an A5 Mule and I must say I'm really into it. Its been a few of my guitars now and its always sounded excellent, even in one particular Flying V where the Riff Raff was not quite working. Probably its my favourite single pickup.
I remember calling BKP and placing the order, it was a few years ago now, but I was ordering a bunch of pickups from BKP, all PAF styles ones. Anyway, we were chewing the fat on the phone (I assume it was with Tim at that time) about PAF tones and I was explaining what my ideal PAF would be, I said something along the lines of the Mule with that kind of warmth it has, but with the bite of an A5 magnet, and pokey in the mids. I remember Tim became a bit excited by this and it seemed like he knew exactly what to do to achieve this, we'll do you a Mule bridge, but with an A5 magnet, and close up the offsets to really bring out the mids for you. A stock A4 Mule neck was suggested to go with it. Anyway, the pickups arrived in the next few days and I couldn't have been more delighted with them! It does work really well with the stock A4 neck. As the cliche goes, it nailed the sound in my head.
Anyway, I also hear that this type of custom order is not really possible any longer. Some people on this very forum have suggested Cold Sweat or VH2 neck pickups in the bridge may or may not do something similar - I have no view on that, never having tried it.
Changing the magnet of an already wound pickup won't change the winds, and in my particular A5 Mule the wind certainly was changed.
There is a difference with the riff raff. The riff raff is a dry sounding pickup, thats one of the coolest things about it. I've had riff raffs in a couple of the same guitars as my a5 mule and somehow the a5 mule keeps alot of the warm mule sound - obviously not completely though, its all a trade off.
Its all kind of academic though if they won't be made anymore. I for one really like my a5 mule and would buy another if they were made available. I don't know if my particular pickup has something different done to it than other A5 mules, as they were all one-offs, so perhaps they were all a bit different.
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Thanks. The different wind will be the reason it's good, I guess. With your wind, did it have the same highs of the riff raff? I kinda liked the RR, but a bit too trebly for me. Going to do the pot swap to 300 and see if it helps. Think your AV with a different wind would be a good idea, but from replies swapping out std mule to AV would scoop mids too much.
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I cannot really say it had the highs of the Riff Raff, it wasn't really exactly the same as an A4 Mule or a Riff Raff - somewhere in the middle.
PAF pickups are all variations on a flavour though I think.
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we'll do you a Mule bridge, but with an A5 magnet, and close up the offsets to really bring out the mids for you.
so its actually a riff raff'ed mule, not just a mule with A5 :D
don't know how the longer magnet changes the tone compared to a regular riff raff short magnet
when I was looking for a riff raff-like pickup with more push and asked about overwinding or ordering a vhII instead, Tim recommended a riff raff with a thicker magnet (4mm instead of 3mm)
he mentioned it would deliver more output and bass response without changing the overall tone
not sure if a longer magnet, instead of thicker one, would make this sort of change
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we'll do you a Mule bridge, but with an A5 magnet, and close up the offsets to really bring out the mids for you.
so its actually a riff raff'ed mule, not just a mule with A5 :D
don't know how the longer magnet changes the tone compared to a regular riff raff short magnet
when I was looking for a riff raff-like pickup with more push and asked about overwinding or ordering a vhII instead, Tim recommended a riff raff with a thicker magnet (4mm instead of 3mm)
he mentioned it would deliver more output and bass response without changing the overall tone
not sure if a longer magnet, instead of thicker one, would make this sort of change
Eric I send you a pm! :)
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In that past I have tried to cater for unusual requests, altering winds, different magnets etc but it does result in a lot of to and fro with the customer, often coming full circle. These days I unfortunately have a lot less time and with a larger team in the workshop as well as a big network of shops around the world I need to know that the pickups that leave the workshop are wound and made to a consistent spec so that we can maintain the highest level of quality. I also feel that the range I offer represents the best of what I can make, simple as that.
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Oh wow, I was sure I made that last post after the other posts that appeared below it, but it has appeared above them...
With all this experimenting with magnets and coils and polarity and stuff, have we inadvertently discovered time travel? :P
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Tim, thanks, I know you have settled on best for each, and the Mule is spot on. I have now put mules in both necks, and one lp is definately brighter than other. This had my riff raff in when it was my only lp, and may explain why I found it so trebly. So, your advice on 300 pot may well be spot on for this LP. Now, where can I get a decent LONG shaft 300 pot ?