Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: blackstrat on April 30, 2013, 07:15:02 PM
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I'm looking for replacement pups for my new PRS Custom 24.
The stock pickups actually sounds pretty good, I just want to try something else. So far I love the focus and tightness of the HFS, it's definitely among the tightest bridge pickup I've played so far. The midrange is throaty, and very compressed, which gives good definition with drop tunings.
The Vintage bass is OK, it warms up the neck position of a 24 fretter quite well. But I wish it's a little more "liquid" for shred runs.
So how does BKP miracle man compared to HFS/VB?
From the official description and after reading some reviews, seems like MM bridge is close to the HFS.
I understand that the MM was designed for metal, but is it versatile enough for anything else? Like jazzy clean tone from the neck position?
I read rave reviews about the cold sweat neck, how does the CS neck compare to MM neck?
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brige miracle man is less compressed and midrangy than the hfs
it has a punchier bass and clearer response, with much more top end detail
the neck miracle man is a lot higher output than the vintage bass, but not over the top
it's a quite thick and smooth tone, which works well for jazz and fusion stuff
voicing reminds me of a tone zone, but without the huge output and muddiness
clean tone is FAT and the leads are very fluid
the neck cold sweat is thinner, cleaner and more articulate, leaning towards the vintage side, but still retaining some modern vibe
more like a PAF pro than a real PAF based model
think Paul Gilbert
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Because of their astonishing articulation, I find that every BKP I've tried has sounded less compressed than other pickups but that's in no way a bad thing. I use a PRS SE Custom 24 and like you, I quite liked the HFS/VB pickups but ultimately had to change them for BKP. In total, I've tried five different bridge pickups and two different neck humbuckers from BKP and most have spent at least a short time in my PRS to see what they were like so I'll try to compare them all to your experience of the PRS pickups.
The stock pickups actually sounds pretty good, I just want to try something else. So far I love the focus and tightness of the HFS, it's definitely among the tightest bridge pickup I've played so far. The midrange is throaty, and very compressed, which gives good definition with drop tunings.
The Vintage bass is OK, it warms up the neck position of a 24 fretter quite well. But I wish it's a little more "liquid" for shred runs.
Emerald bridge
Much more open sounding than the HFS with a tone that's frankly too bright for the PRS but it has a beautiful tone, is extremely articulate and feels like a hot PAF.
Cold Sweat bridge
Although still a bright pickup, it's nothing like as bright as the Emerald. It has a more modern cutting edge to it, is very tight but nothing like as compressed as the HFS and not as thick sounding.
Holydiver bridge
This is what I settled with in the PRS and overall it's my favourite BKP bridge pickup. Compared to the HFS it's at least as thick sounding and has less flub in the bass. The HFS is good but I still found that there was an element of muddiness at the bottom end when using a lot of gain. You just don't get that with the Holydiver, which also has a sweeter lead tone than the HFS and a richer and smoother distortion with chords. Just as tight, a lot more articulate and much better tone. Extremely versatile with plenty thick mids to help it cut through the mix. Awesome pickup in every respect.
Alnico Nailbomb bridge
The tightest and most aggressive sounding pickup I've ever tried. It has quite a thick tone and worked a little better in my PRS than in my Jackson but compared to the HFS it's brutal. Much tighter and much more aggressive. Very 90s Metal. Great if that's what you want but I didn't find it anything like as versatile as I'd hoped.
Miracle Man bridge
Has an awful lot in common with the Holydiver so as I've already compared that pickup to the HFS, I'll just say how this is different to the Holydiver. It shares the thick, smooth and articulate tone but has a more pronounced top and bottom end. It's a bit tighter than the Holydiver and has a bit more aggression to the tone with more screaming highs but it's also not as versatile as the Holydiver and the tone isn't as sweet.
Cold Sweat neck
Fantastic neck pickup for shredding with a highly articulate sound and nice and fluid. Not particularly compressed, retaining a PAF feel to it. Certainly less mud than the VB. I never thought I'd find a better neck pickup and it's still a close second.
Emerald neck
A bright pickup but nothing like as bright as the bridge version. Has a number of things in common with the Cold Sweat in that it's very articulate, has no mud, is very fluid and great for shredding. The alnico IV magnet used in the Emerald however gives it a much sweeter lead tone than the Cold Sweat and greater versatility. I find it gives me everything the Cold Sweat neck did and then more besides. I was all set to get another Cold Sweat but went for the Emerald thanks to Tim and it hasn't let me down.
It's obviously up to you what you take from all this but for me, the best combination to replace the HFS/VB was a Holydiver in the bridge and Emerald in the neck and like you, I really liked the stock pickups. If you want a bit more aggression but less versatility, the Miracle Man/Cold Sweat combo will serve you well too.
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Wow that is super duper helpful. Thanks for taking your time writing such detailed review. I didn't initially consider the holy diver as I'm afraid it might be too 80s sounding/honky mids, but from your description it might be what I'm looking for.
BTW, I once played BKP alnico nailbomb in my friend's handmade PRS replica, it was absolutely amazing. Really thick and brutal, with crazy harmonic richness rivalling dimarzio FRED in my HSS strat.
So the A-bomb is tighter than the miracle man?
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There's a few things you raise here so I'll try to take them one at a time:
Holydiver - It's natural home is certainly 80s Metal so I suppose you can primarily think of the Dio tone, Jake E. Lee and Doug Aldrich but I honestly find that a little limiting in terms of what it can actually do. I play Classic Rock with it very effectively and I can also use it to play much lighter material. It loves an overdrive and with a decent boost it can get some really heavy tones. I use mine to take me to just beyond 80s Metal and after that I usually use my Jackson with the Miracle Man but I've used it to play Metallica and Children of Bodom before now and it copes fine. As I said, it's very versatile. If you liked the Nailbomb you might prefer the Miracle Man as it retains the warmth and smoothness but has more aggression and tightness to it, though the price of that is some versatility and ultimate tone. As always it's a balancing act. I have heard people mentioning honky mids when a Holydiver is in a PRS but it's never bothered me in the slightest and I know others who love it too. Maybe we just like plenty mids :D When I first mentioned the idea of a Holydiver in the bridge of my PRS, Tim said he was 'really excited' by the idea and thought it would be great so I figured it couldn't be that bad and it's turned out to be fantastic. I then suggested a Cold Sweat neck to go with it and that's when he suggested the Emerald instead because it would give a huge palette of tones. It turns out the Holydiver bridge and Emerald neck is one of his favourite combinations.
Nailbomb - Tricky this one :? I find it tighter than the Miracle Man but I've often wondered if it just seemed that way because of its other characteristics. The A-Bomb is so very aggressive that it sounds 'edgy' and 'hairy' to me and I think that accentuates the tightness whereas the Miracle Man is a lot smoother, warmer and more organic (to my ears at least) than the Nailbomb and that possibly masks some of the tightness that is undoubtedly there.
In my personal experience, in terms of tightness and especially aggression, they'd run on a scale of Holydiver - Miracle Man - A-Bomb. I'd say the HFS slots in somewhere between the Holydiver and the Miracle Man. The HFS has a bit more of an aggressive edge to it than the Holydiver but less so than the Miracle Man. 'Tightness' can be a misleading term for me because I always used it to suggest the articulation of a pickup as I really don't like mud but as soon as I heard the Nailbomb I knew I was wrong. The A-Bomb was tight to the point where the bass tracked so fast that it was the aural equivilant of being in a straightjacket and that really didn't suit me unless I wanted that particular sound. Something like the Holydiver isn't as 'tight' but the articulation remains incredible so every note in a chord is distinct even under a healthy amount of gain but because the bass tracks less fast, I find the pickup more useable for a variety of styles. The HFS isn't as articulate as any BKP I've tried.
EDIT: It may be worth me pointing out that although I play in a covers band, I invariably play with more gain than the original songs and 90% of the time I use an overdrive boosting my amp's dirty channel with some extra gain cascaded into the mix. I like distortion! I mention this because I cut the overdrive when I want to back things down a bit but otherwise my guitars are always boosted with an overdrive and the Holydiver responds really well to that. I'd say it responds more to an overdrive than the Miracle Man or A-Bomb and maybe that's what helps me to see it as more versatile.
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Well the HFS was definitely not one of the tightest pickups in the bass I played. I rather see the slight mud in the bass as one of the HFS's shortcomings, along with the slightly nasal midrange. I replaced the HFS in my PRS Custom with the Holydiver bridge which cured all complaints I had. In place of the Vintage Bass is a Cold Sweat neck.
Cheers Stephan
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Have to agree with DarkBlue. The HFS is horrid flubby in the bass end. I had to roll all the bass off my amp to make it sound normal. The natural sound from the PRS CU24 has honky mids, which i don't like and would need rather a slightly scooped pickup in there for me.
Honky mids and flubby bass is the tone from the PRS CU24. Not for me really. :)
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Have to agree with DarkBlue. The HFS is horrid flubby in the bass end. I had to roll all the bass off my amp to make it sound normal. The natural sound from the PRS CU24 has honky mids, which i don't like and would need rather a slightly scooped pickup in there for me.
Honky mids and flubby bass is the tone from the PRS CU24. Not for me really. :)
I quite liked the HFS, though I'd agree that it could get rather flubby in the bass. As for the mids, a pickup that is rather more scooped would suggest the Miracle Man but as blackstrat rather likes the HFS, that would suggest that the mids aren't a problem. They're certainly not a problem for me or darkbluemurder as we both seem to have found that the Holydiver works really well in a CU24 so I can only conclude that the Holydiver will suit blackstrat very well. As for the neck, I prefer the Emerald while darkbluemurder has the Cold Sweat but quite honestly, they're both so good nobody could be disappointed in either one of them.
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keep in mind that the SE version sounds a lot different than a PRS USA
most don't even have a real maple veneer (I've only seen really good looking but still fake fotoflames), while the original ones have a VERY thick maple top
the SE's are more dense and dark sounding, in my experience, kinda like schecters (which makes sense, considering the similar construction and same manufacturer)
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keep in mind that the SE version sounds a lot different than a PRS USA
most don't even have a real maple veneer (I've only seen really good looking but still fake fotoflames), while the original ones have a VERY thick maple top
the SE's are more dense and dark sounding, in my experience, kinda like schecters (which makes sense, considering the similar construction and same manufacturer)
The SE Custom 24 also has a maple neck.
I have a nailbomb in my SE Custom and it's quite aggressive! For me the Holy Diver would be a perfect match in an US Custom. I agree that it's much more versatile then the Nailbomb. The HD is very nice cleaned up with the volume pot, more so than the NB. If I were to change pups in my US Custom I would try the HDs in it for sure. As Slartibartfarst42 said: They work well for many styles, even very high gain. It won't be as aggressive as the NB, but it makes up for that by being so right in so many other styles.
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As for the neck, I prefer the Emerald while darkbluemurder has the Cold Sweat but quite honestly, they're both so good nobody could be disappointed in either one of them.
I never tried the Emerald neck but have only heard praises about it.
Cheers Stephan
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keep in mind that the SE version sounds a lot different than a PRS USA
most don't even have a real maple veneer (I've only seen really good looking but still fake fotoflames), while the original ones have a VERY thick maple top
the SE's are more dense and dark sounding, in my experience, kinda like schecters (which makes sense, considering the similar construction and same manufacturer)
The SE Custom 24 also has a maple neck.
I have a nailbomb in my SE Custom and it's quite aggressive! For me the Holy Diver would be a perfect match in an US Custom. I agree that it's much more versatile then the Nailbomb. The HD is very nice cleaned up with the volume pot, more so than the NB. If I were to change pups in my US Custom I would try the HDs in it for sure. As Slartibartfarst42 said: They work well for many styles, even very high gain. It won't be as aggressive as the NB, but it makes up for that by being so right in so many other styles.
didn't know about the neck thing
I had the SE 22, which was mahogany
what pissed me off was the fake top
it looked great, but I could see the lines of the mahogany back pieces glued together over the top as well (that means it was only a photo over the back and no maple veneer at all)
it was a great sounding as stock guitar already
but sounded nothing like a PRS
my first though for the SE I had was the nailbomb too
the holy diver should sound sound great in the US indeed, but I think he might feel a considerable drop in output if he's not an overdrive user
stock PRS pickups are quite compressed, even the low output models
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keep in mind that the SE version sounds a lot different than a PRS USA
most don't even have a real maple veneer (I've only seen really good looking but still fake fotoflames), while the original ones have a VERY thick maple top
the SE's are more dense and dark sounding, in my experience, kinda like schecters (which makes sense, considering the similar construction and same manufacturer)
The SE Custom 24 also has a maple neck.
I have a nailbomb in my SE Custom and it's quite aggressive! For me the Holy Diver would be a perfect match in an US Custom. I agree that it's much more versatile then the Nailbomb. The HD is very nice cleaned up with the volume pot, more so than the NB. If I were to change pups in my US Custom I would try the HDs in it for sure. As Slartibartfarst42 said: They work well for many styles, even very high gain. It won't be as aggressive as the NB, but it makes up for that by being so right in so many other styles.
didn't know about the neck thing
I had the SE 22, which was mahogany
what pissed me off was the fake top
it looked great, but I could see the lines of the mahogany back pieces glued together over the top as well (that means it was only a photo over the back and no maple veneer at all)
it was a great sounding as stock guitar already
but sounded nothing like a PRS
my first though for the SE I had was the nailbomb too
the holy diver should sound sound great in the US indeed, but I think he might feel a considerable drop in output if he's not an overdrive user
stock PRS pickups are quite compressed, even the low output models
Maybe the earlier ones had some kind of cheap print on them. My SE CU24 has a real (wow!) veneer :D
Good point about the output. I do think the Nailbombs would be a nice upgrade from the HFS/VB. I believe they would keep the same aggressive sound but be more open, especially the Alnico version.
I'm still liking the 59/09s in my CU24 (and they are far from compressed like the HFS, think hot PAF) and that's why I tend to like the Holy Divers more. If you are more into the hot ceramic camp and like playing metal the Nailbomb would be a nice choice.
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Certainly my SE Custom 24 looks like more of a veneer than simply a photo. The quality is astonishing for the money. The A-Bomb is a LOT more aggressive sounding than the HFS. I was happy to keep the HFS in mine for a year before I eventually put Bare Knuckles in it and the Nailbomb was so different to the HFS that I knew very quickly it was never going to work for me whereas the Holydiver, especially with an overdrive, gave me everything the HFS did and more.
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Certainly my SE Custom 24 looks like more of a veneer than simply a photo. The quality is astonishing for the money. The A-Bomb is a LOT more aggressive sounding than the Nailbomb. I was happy to keep the HFS in mine for a year before I eventually put Bare Knuckles in it and the Nailbomb was so different to the HFS that I knew very quickly it was never going to work for me whereas the Holydiver, especially with an overdrive, gave me everything the HFS did and more.
That's really a different view, but you might be right. I didn't keep my HFS in for long, and it was quite some time ago I placed the NBs in it.
I do love both the NB and the HD though, but my favorite is the HD!
Agree about the quality, the SEs are great guitars.
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the question is: HOW do you know it's a real veneer? cause I couldn't tell for months
the top looked VERY real, no dean-like pixelated cr@p or those very artificial epiphone and ltd tops
I would never know if it wasn't for the back lines
when I see anything over AAA grade in a branded guitar under $1200, I already expect it to be fake
the only thing maple was the binding (that in a us-made PRS, is part of the top)
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In fairness, I guess I can't know for sure but it certainly does look the part. The quilted maple finish on my PRS certainly LOOKS far better quality than the flame veneer on my Jackson and I like the detailing of having a maple binding to make it look like a proper piece of maple on top. I imagine a US made PRS sounds better and has a real quilted maple top of superb quality but in all honesty, I'm so impressed with my SE version that I couldn't imagine ever forking out £2000 extra to get one made in America. I've never had the chance to play an American made PRS before but everyone I've spoken to who has tried both has told me there's not as much difference as you might expect. That's not to say the American versions aren't top quality instruments because clearly they are but it is inevitably the case that, in my experience at least, as the price goes up you start to get diminishing returns. I'd say a PRS SE is 2-3 times better than a cheapish Squier but I doubt an American PRS is 4-5 times better than the SE version. My Japanese made Jackson Soloist cost me a good bit more than my PRS when new but I don't see much if any difference in quality.
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Thanks for the replies guys. Lots of information so far.
I'm also open to medium output pups since dimarzio fred and duncan screamin demon sounded great through my rig.
So now I'm also considering HD/emerald, the emerald set or vh2 set.
The HFS sounds good through my rig, though I understand some people might not like its nasal and honky midrange. It sounds a bit sluggish at first but after adjusting the polepiece it tightens up.
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Nasal honky mids are the natural tone from the PRS CU24. The ceramic pickup have a very loose bass side to them.
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If yours is an American PRS it may be different but on my SE, the Emerald was just too bright and too open. If you like the HFS, which is fairly compressed, I doubt you'll prefer the Emerald or VHII to the Holydiver. Bare in mind that although the Fred and Screamin' Demon look to be in the 'vintage hot' category, they'll sound somewhat more compressed than Bare Knuckles. I find that even hot Bare Knuckle pickups don't sound as compressed as lower output pickups from other manufacturers because they're so incredibly articulate. I think a lower output DiMarzio will give you some of the compression you like in the HFS but they will turn to mud far sooner than BKP, which just don't. Given everything you've said so far, I doubt you'll find anything in the vintage hot category as good as the Holydiver. I stand by my earlier suggestion of Holydiver/Emerald or if you want more aggression and less mids; the Miracle Man and either Emerald or Cold Sweat.
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In fairness, I guess I can't know for sure but it certainly does look the part. The quilted maple finish on my PRS certainly LOOKS far better quality than the flame veneer on my Jackson and I like the detailing of having a maple binding to make it look like a proper piece of maple on top. I imagine a US made PRS sounds better and has a real quilted maple top of superb quality but in all honesty, I'm so impressed with my SE version that I couldn't imagine ever forking out £2000 extra to get one made in America. I've never had the chance to play an American made PRS before but everyone I've spoken to who has tried both has told me there's not as much difference as you might expect. That's not to say the American versions aren't top quality instruments because clearly they are but it is inevitably the case that, in my experience at least, as the price goes up you start to get diminishing returns. I'd say a PRS SE is 2-3 times better than a cheapish Squier but I doubt an American PRS is 4-5 times better than the SE version. My Japanese made Jackson Soloist cost me a good bit more than my PRS when new but I don't see much if any difference in quality.
I have two SEs and two US built PRSes. And while I do agree that the SEs are really good guitars, and they do the job that a guitar should very very well.
Of course we are dealing with diminishing returns, but still the US ones are something special indeed. I was very scared when I bought my first US model, scared that it wouldn't be good enough to justify the price. I shouldn't have worried. Everytime I pickup the CU24 it feels very different to my SE CU24. The whole feel of it is different and for me after getting used to it, it would be hard to loose. Yes it is a lot of money, and depending on your economic situation, it might not be worth it. But if you have a possibility to get one I promise that you will not be disappointed.
But you don't have to shell out £2000-3000 for that feeling. My 2nd hand £600 Mira has got that wonderful PRS feel that my CU24 has. Twinfans DGT for sale would be a VERY nice option if you want to go US.
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I wasn't questioning the actual build quality of the korean versions
just that they sound quite different due to different construction, not the quality itself
I mean... a PRS SE might be better built than my jap hurricane lp cop, which has a gross polyesther/plastic plate over the whole back, but the hurricane does sound like a real les paul, since it follows the basic construction of a les paul
it probably doesn't even have the same mahogany species and certainly doesn't look or sound like swietenia macrophylla, but it does sound like a les paul should and it's one of my favorites
but the PRS SE didn't sound or feel nothing like any PRS I've come across
it was a great guitar, but had a thing of its own, just like schecters do
my only rant was that I felt deceived by the (beautiful) fake top and then I realized that most brands are doing the same thing these days
only a few of the big ones are using actual flamed tops or even flamed veneers, and most are photos or plain veneers with the flame/quilted patterns printed or sprayed (?) straight to the wood
I am a les paul guy, but I had 3 US made PRS in the last few years
I gotta tell you these are hard to beat guitars in every aspect
you can tell they are really careful when picking the best wood pieces
they resonate better than most honduras mahogany guitars I've seen from any brand or luthier
they're not just about the looks
didn't try the all mahogany models like the mira and the "standard" versions of the custom and mccarty
I had 2 mccarty customs (maple top) and a CE-22 (mahogany/maple), and played a few others
their maple tops are much thicker than they look from the sides, so they make a big difference soundwise
their stop tails may seem a bit silly, since they don't have adjustable saddles, but they tend to be quite plug n play, unlike tune-o-matic loaded Gibsons, that usually require some fine tuning setup
it's kinda dangerous to make comparisons like this, but although SE's are better built guitars than Epiphones, for example, they are further from a real PRS than a good Epiphone is from a Gibson (by good, I mean a regular constructed Epiphone, as some are a complete mess with 10+ pieces of alder and basswood glued together)
I don't think I'd ever pay the price of a new PRS Custom, but you can find a used McCarty (that's a still a little overlooked for some unknown reason) or even a singlecut for half the price of a new one
believe when people say they're worth the value over the SE's
definitely not just a corksniffing case
they're the real deal
and I'm swearing by them as an EX-owner
:D
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And naturally I defer to your greater experience. I'd still love to own a US made PRS and at one point I nearly did but then I put my sensible head on and realised that for what I do with a guitar (covers band and private enjoyment) I just couldn't justify the cost. I don't have limitless disposable income and unfortunately, in the cold light of day, there are more pressing and practical needs. My Jackson cost me £1000 when new and my PRS SE Custom 24 cost £350 used but in 'as new' condition. If I could be left with only one guitar, I'd take the PRS without hesitation. In that price bracket, I can't see why anybody buys anything else. I can only imagine how good an American PRS is but based on the Korean versions, they must be very special indeed.