Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: CommonCourtesy on October 14, 2014, 08:22:03 PM
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So I currently own the trusty Ibanez TS9 tubescreamer, the normal one, no re-issues or anything. Currently run it in front of a 6505+ and it is pretty good at tightening up the flubby lead channel as well as giving the palm mutes some extra beef.
There's other overdrives out there I'm interested to know about, if they're any better at driving and amp, the Maxon OD808, Zakk Wylde overdrive, FullTone OCD and TS808 are a few that I see being run as clean boosts.
Anyone got any experience with using these with similar sorts of amps? Am I better off using something else?
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For that purpose you cant really beat a tubescreamer. I use a CMATMODS Signa Drive for this purpose (To boost a 5150 iii) its a tubescreamer knock off and I think I prefer it to the tubescreamers I had.....or maybe I just have a vivid imagination!?
I had a zw overdrive and i sold it for some reason......it wasnt bad but obviously i wanted some thing else at the time.
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An alternative is the MXR Custom Badass Modified O.D.
It's cheap and versatile in its EQ. It is somewhere between a tube screamer and a super distortion.
I wouldn't get rid of your tubescreamer but it would give you a different sound to play with, without being too much for the Peavey's lead channel and ending up in uncontrollable feedback territory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSTy9uk_kGY
Comparison with TS9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hrLhiS3Ls0
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Here are the pedals I like for clean boost:
Klon (Juansolo Klone)
Maxon OD820
Boss GE7 EQ pedal with Monte Allums kit
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Definite vote for a Juan Solo Klon - but if you want to be a little different, try a treble booster in front. They give a drive channel a different flavour.
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I'd have thought it you want to tighten it up you want something either with a bass cut, or with a bass knob. So that (at least in my experience) rules out things like the klon, OCD, etc.
If you like your TS I'm not sure I'd run round trying millions of very slight variations on the TS thing. I'm not sure there's going to be a ton (if any) difference between yours, the ts808, the maxon od808 (which is actually a ts10, yet it's the more popular one because of the name, who says guitarists are full of it? :laugh: ), maxon od9 etc. EDIT: and yeah I realise I'm a total hypocrite saying that considering how many TS-types I have. :laugh:
If you want to try some slight upgrades/mods on the TS thing that might be worth a try- visual sound route 808, digitech bad monkey and hardwire tube od, etc. etc. Whether they actually work any better (I'm not sure they do) is another thing, though- just because they're advertised as "improved" doesn't necessarily mean they'll work any better if you just want the "TS tightening up a high gain tube amp" thing (which you already have). In my experience those "improved" ones normally have the advantage if you want to use them as a standalone overdrive into a clean channel (or at least if you want to use some overdrive from the pedal, even if the amp is a bit crunchy). The "improved" ones often (though not always, and some give you the option of either sound) "fix" the mid hump and bass cut, which is great when used as a standalone OD, but actually works against you when tightening a high gain amp (at least, in my experience). :laugh:
Boss SD1 is pretty nice. Sort of TS-ish, but a bit brighter/edgier. Cheap enough too to give it a shot. Daphon does a cheapo clone, but most of the time it's not all that much cheaper than the Boss version (though it doesn't seem to have the bypass bleed). I think the badass modified OD Agent Orange suggested is a glorified/"improved" SD1 (though I haven't tried it).
If you want to try something much more transparent, a timmy (or in my case the discontinued cheapo danelectro clone) is probably my favourite for that. Though it's far from the only one- the digitech screamin blues will do it on the cheap (and has a bass knob unlike the boss BD2 which it's, er, "inspired by"). It's also worth pointing out that (at least in my experience), the more transparent/flatter response ODs don't have the mid-boost and compression of tubescreamer-style overdrives, which I also think helps with tightening up a high gain amp.
Just to clarify- I haven't tried every single pedal I listed there, and I also don't have a 6505, that's based on boosting my own high gain amps (engl savage se, laney gh50L, jet city 50 watt head), and at pretty low home volumes.
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I won't be getting rid of the TS9 anytime soon, just looking around to see what else is out there. I mean the screamer and 6505+ work well together, but keep seeing stuff about the OD808 and other overdrives. Even seen a handwired tubescreamer which is £300+!!
I do have a Boss SD-1 but I would've used it more for solo boosts, and I don't solo in this band so I don't need to use it. I might give it a go though, the Digitech Bad Monkey is something I've been aware of too, cos of the bass control knob.
As for the overdrive being noisy I've (finally) learnt how to use the loop of the ISP Decimator G-string, before I was hooking it up incorrectly by having it run in the FX loop only to quieten down the pre-amp on the lead channel, but as it was right in front of the amp it made noise if too much pre gain was used (i.e above 5). Now I've had the 6505+ lead channel modded so its silent I don't need to fiddle around with the effects loop, instead just run the tubescreamer through the loop of the ISP and running the guitar straight through so cleans aren't affected. My pre-gain is now on 4 and the drive is on zero on the pedal, level around 1 o'clock. No noise now.
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I won't be getting rid of the TS9 anytime soon, just looking around to see what else is out there. I mean the screamer and 6505+ work well together, but keep seeing stuff about the OD808 and other overdrives. Even seen a handwired tubescreamer which is £300+!!
I do have a Boss SD-1 but I would've used it more for solo boosts, and I don't solo in this band so I don't need to use it. I might give it a go though, the Digitech Bad Monkey is something I've been aware of too, cos of the bass control knob.
As for the overdrive being noisy I've (finally) learnt how to use the loop of the ISP Decimator G-string, before I was hooking it up incorrectly by having it run in the FX loop only to quieten down the pre-amp on the lead channel, but as it was right in front of the amp it made noise if too much pre gain was used (i.e above 5). Now I've had the 6505+ lead channel modded so its silent I don't need to fiddle around with the effects loop, instead just run the tubescreamer through the loop of the ISP and running the guitar straight through so cleans aren't affected. My pre-gain is now on 4 and the drive is on zero on the pedal, level around 1 o'clock. No noise now.
A tubescreamer is a tubescreamer unless its the od820 but thats not really a tubescreamer
with regards to the TS7/9/808 they're all practically the same pedal with very minor circuit differences that don't neccesarily translate into tonal differences.
Don't waste your money!
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I'd have thought it you want to tighten it up you want something either with a bass cut, or with a bass knob. So that (at least in my experience) rules out things like the klon, OCD, etc.
The OCD is actually my preferred way of tightening up a heavy tone. Knock the gain down to 0 and just use the level and tone and you get a really focused tight sound without as drastic a low end drop off but it's still plenty tight and aggressive.
Edit: Actually I was wrong above. My preferred way of tightening my tone up is to switch to a guitar with EMGs and use my MKIIC+ I don't really use boosts of any kind much anymore now that I don't have cr@p amps. :cool:
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Lol if I was a signed artist I'd be trying out different shizz every day! I have a preference towards the American high gain sound as opposed to the British vintage rock tone, a lot of the bands I listen to are these American heavy gain drop tuned metalcore type bands that lean towards Mezzy B and Peavey amps.
Killswitch use OD808's in front of their amps, I'm aware. My favourite band is A Day To Remember, I know one guitarist uses the Ibanez Handwired Tubescreamer, the other has recently switched to Custom Audio amps, don't know what he's running as a drive, if anything.
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When it comes to pushing tubes I have three personal heros:
1. Tubescreamer. No suprise there, but there are many variations. The defining factor is the mid hump. Man I really gotta get mine out again, been a while. Because of:
2. Klone. There is the original and then there is the one Juansolo does, which is the one I have and treat like a god. It can do clean boost, overdrive, or (my favorite) the driving "more" setting, where it just multiplies all the goodness of a proper tube amp. The beauty is that it is extremly transparent and just about every setting does something great. If I were asked to name one pedal that everyone should have it is the Juansolo Klon(e). Utterly phantastic.
3. Zvex Super Hard On. While this is a clean boost it is also so much more. It does not feel like it just amplifies the signal from the pickups, it seems to suck more tone out of them. That is what makes it brilliant. The result is a tightened enhanced tone. Combine it with toneshaping pedals and bäm!
Plus if you are even remotly handly with a soldering iron it is an extremly easy DIY thing.
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I agree w most of the posts above, perhaps it's not another overdrive you need but a foundation/boost pedal that you can stack with you TS for tonal variety.
The most common ones have already been mentioned: Klon, SHO, and an EQ.
Most Catalinbread pedal will also fit the bill for what you are looking for.
On the obscure end of the pool are the Rawkworks Light Drive, Lizard Legs Flying Dragon, Hermida Zen Drive, and my personal favorite, the JColoccia Horus.
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All this talk of "mid-humping" and stuff baffles me, I'm never 100% sure where to put my mids on the amp, usually its on 6/7 which is quite high for a heavier sound as alot of high gain bands prefer to scoop the mids out, but I can't hear myself in the mix if I do it. If kicking on a tubescreamer boosts its more I should ought to back off a little bit of mid on the amp?
I have the Ceramic Nailbomb in the bridge position of my main guitar now, used to own an Aftermath which was too middy. The tubescreamer does help fatten up power chords and stuff. I claim it be my "secret weapon" haha.
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All this talk of "mid-humping" and stuff baffles me, I'm never 100% sure where to put my mids on the amp, usually its on 6/7 which is quite high for a heavier sound as alot of high gain bands prefer to scoop the mids out, but I can't hear myself in the mix if I do it. If kicking on a tubescreamer boosts its more I should ought to back off a little bit of mid on the amp?
I have the Ceramic Nailbomb in the bridge position of my main guitar now, used to own an Aftermath which was too middy. The tubescreamer does help fatten up power chords and stuff. I claim it be my "secret weapon" haha.
You could happily run the mids on the amp about 3-4 with a TS.
The biggest problem with amps EQ is normally the mid control covers quite a large frequency range. Ideally to get those scooped tones you just want to take a bit out about 700hz which obviously the mid control cant do as it has to bring everything else with it.
Maybe try a GEQ?
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I'm going to try backing it down to about 5/6 next time, trouble is at gigs when soundchecking you only got 5 seconds to test your tone before the soundguy tells you to shut up so its impossible to gauge any sound you like.
I ain't looking for a scooped sound cos I want to cut though the mix, in the past maybe its been far too high coupled with the middy pickup.
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I'm going to try backing it down to about 5/6 next time, trouble is at gigs when soundchecking you only got 5 seconds to test your tone before the soundguy tells you to shut up so its impossible to gauge any sound you like.
I ain't looking for a scooped sound cos I want to cut though the mix, in the past maybe its been far too high coupled with the middy pickup.
You can cut through the mix with a scooped tone. It just has to be scooped correctly and very narrowly.
However yes you can have too many mids it gives a kinda of bloated/congested sound with little to no punch. It's the reason I got rid of my Aftermath when I built my SLO thing.
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Some of the example EQ settings in the manual for the 6505+ say put them on 2.5 but there's no way I'm having them that low! 5 minmum for me!
I like my chords and stuff to be punchy and have some body to them, not thin and weedy like a lot of metal guitarists.
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I won't be getting rid of the TS9 anytime soon, just looking around to see what else is out there. I mean the screamer and 6505+ work well together, but keep seeing stuff about the OD808 and other overdrives. Even seen a handwired tubescreamer which is £300+!!
I do have a Boss SD-1 but I would've used it more for solo boosts, and I don't solo in this band so I don't need to use it. I might give it a go though, the Digitech Bad Monkey is something I've been aware of too, cos of the bass control knob.
As for the overdrive being noisy I've (finally) learnt how to use the loop of the ISP Decimator G-string, before I was hooking it up incorrectly by having it run in the FX loop only to quieten down the pre-amp on the lead channel, but as it was right in front of the amp it made noise if too much pre gain was used (i.e above 5). Now I've had the 6505+ lead channel modded so its silent I don't need to fiddle around with the effects loop, instead just run the tubescreamer through the loop of the ISP and running the guitar straight through so cleans aren't affected. My pre-gain is now on 4 and the drive is on zero on the pedal, level around 1 o'clock. No noise now.
A tubescreamer is a tubescreamer unless its the od820 but thats not really a tubescreamer
with regards to the TS7/9/808 they're all practically the same pedal with very minor circuit differences that don't neccesarily translate into tonal differences.
Don't waste your money!
Agreed.I'd have thought it you want to tighten it up you want something either with a bass cut, or with a bass knob. So that (at least in my experience) rules out things like the klon, OCD, etc.
The OCD is actually my preferred way of tightening up a heavy tone. Knock the gain down to 0 and just use the level and tone and you get a really focused tight sound without as drastic a low end drop off but it's still plenty tight and aggressive.
Edit: Actually I was wrong above. My preferred way of tightening my tone up is to switch to a guitar with EMGs and use my MKIIC+ I don't really use boosts of any kind much anymore now that I don't have cr@p amps. :cool:
LOL
I didn't really like the cheapo joyo ocd clone as a boost. At least for a high gain amp where I prefer the bass cut thing- for lower gain it was a decent, fairly transparent boost IIRC.
Maybe the real thing is better.
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Some of the example EQ settings in the manual for the 6505+ say put them on 2.5 but there's no way I'm having them that low! 5 minmum for me!
I like my chords and stuff to be punchy and have some body to them, not thin and weedy like a lot of metal guitarists.
yeah that's just an extreme setting. Really you need a GEQ on the amp or in the loop to get a punchy yet aggressive tone without having to have bucketloads of mids.
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I'm going to try and roll off the mids on the amp at the next show, and boost with the TS9. I used an Egnater head at rehearsal earlier and used less on the amp and then about 2 o'clock on the pedal. Sounded quite good.
I do find as well when the volume is a bedroom level you need to turn the mids up a bit more, as the amp gets louder its not as necessary. So at gig volume the post-gain is about 2/2.5. At home I can't turn it up to 1 without the walls shaking!
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I have a Maxon OD808 and I love it, however im not sure it it would be worth your while spending the cash if you already have a TS you are happy with-by all means try and test it out and if you really really want it you could in theory get it via a trade,etc.
Regarding mids, it can vary a lot depending on what band you are in and if you are competing with another guitarist-for live use i run mine around 5 (i use a evh 5153) but for recording around 2/3 sounds awesome. And some soundguys tend to eq the amp sound anyways so whatever setting you go for itll be mostly for your benefit rather than the crowds. Good luck!
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Well I was just looking around to see if there was anything better out there, alot of American bands use the OD808 so it'd be cool to give it a go.
We are a dropped tuned chuggy type band, not full on metalcore but some heavy elements in there. Will try my mids on 5 or so at the next gig see where that fits. What setting is your pre-gain at? I usually run it at 4 then put the TS9 on top. Gives more punch.
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They're all too similar to hear the differences through the high gain channel of an amp. The main concerns are noise levels. The TS9 is already very good.
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I use 3 different pedals into my Mesa Boogie Roadster. I find that the differences can be quite dramatic just depends on the amp
ProTone Deadhourse Deluxe for my main tight rhythm tone. - Has more push in the mids and tightens things up a bit more generally better for my darker guitars. But at the same time doesn't cut too much low end. nice and aggressive up top too.
Rex MAB overdrive for my thicker darker rhythm tone - has more of a flatter darker response than the dead horse less of a mid hump but still gets things a little tighter, punchier and aggressive - good for heavy breakdowns/KSE stuff
Mesa GridSlammer for leads - alot smoother/sweeter than the other two very well judged mid boost to help cut through. Its tighter than the deadhorse.
They are all run with very little or no gain just tone (normally about 10-11 o'clock) and volume to get the right drive level.
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I just found out about this Seymour Duncan OD.
Anyone tried one? 3-band EQ, 9V or 18V, looks interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FyYMDu7Q6w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWE4vSpb7Fw
EDIT: Here's a video of the MXR M77 in use that you might find interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzSCDnw7iaQ
And this one by 'Guitar Face Man'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0C9UkCPUVM
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I hope you don't use those 3 pedals all at the same time Big K haha.
Peavey's are well known for a bit of a flubby lead channel sound so an overdrive run in front tightens things up big time. I played straight into the amp a few weeks ago with the pre-gain on 6 and it sounds a bit meh. Pre-gain on 4 and the level on the Tube screamer turned up sounds better. I never messed about with the tone knob til yesterday, adds some colour to it.
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I don't have that problem with the 6534+ ... I think when I started using the tubescreamer I was just following the received wisdom on this series of amps, but the EL34 power valves seem to provide a tighter, middier tone compared to the 6505 and 6505+
I only use the MXR M77 OD now to drive the input of my EVH Phase 90. Otherwise I run the preamp gain at around 5, presence around 5-6 and the resonance around the same.
I only mention this because when I was looking for information on how to EQ the 6534+ I kept finding threads on the 6505+ that suggested the amps were very similar and that the standard ISP, TS, 10-band set-up was pretty much mandatory. I have found that while the ISP and 10-band are crucial for me the 6534+ seems to have an inbuilt 'screamer effect' compared to the 6505+
I'd highly recommend an EQ in the loop if you don't currently have one. That was the one pedal that really made a big difference, besides the noise reduction stuff.
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The only band I know that uses a 6534+ is The Devil Wears Prada, and the guy still uses a tubescreamer on top. Has this pre-gain pretty high, on 5.5 as well.
Some people say the 6505+ is a middy amp, some don't, I would't say it has as many as a Marshall, for example.
I've modded my head so the lead channel is quiet, so I don't need to mess about with FX loops and stuff, saving set up time. Only noise I have to worry about now is the tubescreamer making noise once kicked on. I have this under control though with the loop of the ISP.
If using an EQ what am I looking to boost the most?
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Well, I can't really tell you what to boost, that's really a reflection of your settings in your whole signal chain up to that point and your personal taste. I can tell you that have ten bands of active EQ to play with gives you a lot more options than the passive low, mid, treble on the 6505+/6534+ preamp. I have found it useful.
I used to run my pre gain at 6 with a Maxon OD-9 with the tone at roughly noon and the gain at 0 with the level dimed, but now I don't run a screamer at all and leave my gain at 5. It might reflect my role in the band, which is rhythm player in a punk band with a heavily distorted lead guitarist and bassist. If I put my gain up too high I just kind of get in the way and you can't really hear what I am playing. Backing off on the gain gives me a tighter sound (for my setup). I also use a Boss NS-2 out front and an ISP Decimator G-String in the loop; that helps tighten things up a bit in terms of just general noisiness floating around.
I don't know The Devil Wears Prada - should I assume that they are a metalcore band? The name sounds like one
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I think the guitarist in my band has an MXR 10 band, canit remember if he sold it or not but if he's still got it I might try it out.
I ran it on 6 with the tubescreamer on at the first gig I used it for and all I got was noise!! Didn't hook up the ISP properly which didn't help but I underestimated the power of the lead channel on the 6505+! Anything above 4 is too much esp if you're boosting, and you can't hear much. I'm the rhythm player as well in my band, hold down the main chunk of the song in terms of harmony.
They're an American metalcore band yes, if you look at his settings on the amp in a quick shot, he has a lot of pre-amp gain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgwZQou-xt4
He has two noise gates though so I assume he has a quiet live sound in terms of background noise.
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Cheers for the link.
Wow, he has his low on the lead channel up to 8. I keep mine around 5. I have a bit less mids and treble than him too, but I have to say that much of what happens in terms of the mids etc happens with the EQ pedal. His presence and resonance are around the same as mine.
I did laugh about the fact that his stage settings for post gain on his lead channel are lower than what I use at practice (and even sometimes in my house). I generally have my post set at 3 and I'm prepared to raise that if necessary! IMHO Peaveys don't get to their real character until you get to at least where his post is set. Above that it's all gravy I guess.
I think one reason why I don't need a screamer is that the Stockholm is a very aggressive pickup.
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No worries, yeah he has a lot of low end! He has his mids near 6/7 which is what I was doing but since rolling it off to 5 I think the clarity is better.
Well he's being mic'd up and probably uses in-ears so there's no need to turn up to a ridiculous stage volume. Can't see his tubescreamer settings though.
Even I can't turn my post gain up past 2.5 without pissing the sound guy off!
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In the underground punk scene here we often have to play with virtually no sound guy, no mics on the drums, and just a vocal PA. Volume is basically determined by how loud we can go before we can't hear the drummer any more, which in my case is around 3.
Our bassist has lined up a spot for us at the local annual punx picnic so we won't even bother taking our good amps for that. I will probably take my old Bandit (hopefully it is up to it!) and run that script reissue MXR Distortion+ I have through it, and use my Explorer rather than my SG Junior just because the neck on that is stronger and more likely to survive any mishaps.
You and I live in different worlds, obviously!
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I've played in venues before where the amps aren't mic'd up too you know! Horrible sound and you get the bleed into the vocal mics. On stage it sounds rubbish. Dunno about out front.
Thankfully as we've gone through the venues and stuff they've got better and most places have a decent sound system now, long way off from in ears haha. One of the best sounds I've had is in two venues, where we had at least two monitors each and side fills. Unfortunately not every place we play is like that but its nice to be able to hear yourself and the sound is great out front!
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I just play and hope to hear myself and the drummer ... I get someone to record it so that I can enjoy the out front sound later.
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Well I just hope I get heard over our drummer cos he's very loud! Also the other guitars tend to want to turn up loud too for some reason.
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This is where we are playing next Saturday ... actually we use it as our practice room and that's the cruddy vocal PA we will be using ... the guy on vocals is a friend of ours who was with us for a few weeks and didn't have any vocals worked out at the time, he was just yelling whatever ... our bassist (who you can hear doing vocals on the choruses) and the lead guitarist have taken over vocals together now and we are a four piece ... that's me with the pink SG Junior. As you can see, underground d-beat punk. BKPs are a bit of overkill, as is my effects board ... we worked the OD/Phaser/EQ combination into the bridge of a song I wrote tonight, will have to listen back to the recordings to see if it worked okay ... our lead guitarist didn't like it (but he's jealous of my board!) but the bassist said it sounded great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1C00pfpWMM
We all have to squeeze into where the bassist and drummer are, that's the stage ... audience will be where the guitars are set up
Mattresses are sound proofing and mosh pit cushioning!
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Nice link! Can't beat some good old underground punk! What are you running your post-gain on then, 3?!
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Yeah, 3
That video was recorded with a Sony Cybershot DSC-HX20V camera on a little tripod sitting on top of one of the PA speakers ...
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I've never ever turned it up to 3 for a show lol, only 2.5 before the soundguy has asked me to turn down. What if they did 6505+s as 60 watt amps I wonder, you'd get more headroom to crank.
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The singer has a tough job in that band.
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A vocalist's job in a band like ours is to yell in time, drink beer, get among the punters! :laugh:
The 6505+ 112 (China) combo is 60W, as is the old/discontinued 5150/6505 (USA) 212 combo