Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: McDuffed on March 31, 2017, 10:01:29 PM
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Hi everyone, first time post here. Haven’t lurked all that much though I’ve swung by the forum before when looking for info on things BKP related.
I bought a new PRS Custom 24 which I’ve had for several months now and I’ve finally come to the conclusion that I’m not digging the 85/15 pickups. I gave them a chance as I like some aspects of them (clarity and control) but not enough to keep them in the end. Guitar is mahogany body maple top / rosewood neck / ebony fret board.
I’m playing into a Boogie Mark V-35. On the distortion side, gain is mostly dialed up. I like a full throttle Mark IV sound and dial down the gain where needed with the volume knob. Will occasionally throw a tube screamer on top of that for a little extra sustain in leads if needed. Though I don’t play straight out metal, my ideal dirty channel sound is circa Faith No More “King for a Day” period. On the clean side, I like intermediary “Strat” style sounds (typically from position 4 – i.e. neck + bridge single coils in parallel) as well as a nice warm neck HB (Burstbucker Pro or DiMarzio Air Classic).
What I don’t like about the 85/15s: I’m finding the bridge far too harsh: it’s all mids and treble. They also seem to pick up the transient string noises more than any other guitars I have and throw it back at me in a pretty unpleasant way. Accidental string slides on wound strings or pick scratches can be quite painful to my ears. It’s accentuated by the “V” EQ on the Boogie which really boosts those highs but it’s not nearly as bad on my other guitars. I could clean up my playing I suppose but that’s not happening anytime soon! Finally, they are a little (maybe even a lot) short on “oomph“. I recently read that the bridge pickup had a DC resistance of 8.8K. Apparently they make up for this with the coil wire gauge / number of winds but it’s just not cutting it for me. On the other hand, I do like the neck pickup, especially position 4. It could be a little warmer / fatter on full HB but it’s still pretty good. I would consider keeping it but there’s no saying how it would pair with a replacement bridge pickup, and it’s got those weird square bobbin covers so would look a little strange combined with a more classic looking bridge pickup.
What I like on the BKP side: I have a similar specced guitar (thin mahogany / maple body - rosewood / ebony Gibson scale neck) – though non-prs - with a matched pair of Rebel Yells. It’s great and it would be a no brainer for me to replicate that but I’m looking for something at a little different here to expand my tone options. Also, looking for something with perhaps a little bit less gain than the Rebel Yells – though probably still a little more modern than vintage. I also own a Holy Diver bridge / Irish Tour set which I have on an HSS strat. It’s good on the strat but I find that it is harsher than the Rebel Yell which has a more “liquid” sounding gain. I don’t think it’s an option here.
What I like generally: my 2006 LP with Burstbucker pro bridge sounds tremendous on the Mark V, though I need to add a touch of OD on the leads to up the sustain. I realize it’s a different guitar though, can’t really turn the PRS into an LP – that’s not the plan anyway.
So that’s that with the rant, as always, it boils down to what would you recommend? Rebel Yells and Holy Diver are off the table. I think a good summary of what I am after would be a slightly dialed down Rebel Yell with a little more note definition / separation. I saw a demo on YouTube where the Abraxas were sounding really good. Cold Sweat and Crawlers look like they might also fit the bill but are unknowns to me at the moment.
Thanks to everyone for their inputs.
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Abraxas performs well in PRS-guitars. The Crawler is an option if the natural voice of your guitar is on the bright side. Both split well.
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You seem to be more or less describing the Abraxas. My Abraxas set is in a PRS SE Bernie which is basically an LP-alike - mahogany body/neck, rosewood board, maple cap. My Rebel Yells are in a Gibson Firebird Studio - all mahogany, set neck, rosewood board.
The RYs are more modern sounding than the Abraxas set (Abraxi?). The Abraxas bridge is a little lower in output than the RY but there's not a lot in it. The Abraxas has a little less cut in the top end. The Abraxas has more mid range and the low end is lovely and thick but not as tight as the RY.
The Abraxas is a hot-rodded Mule so it has a more vintage vibe than the RY but has a lot more power than a PAF. The Abraxas has a more rounded top end but has all the cut you need if you dial treble and presence up a little.
The neck pups are quite similar. I couldn't choose a favourite between them - they are both great.
A lot of guys have been very happy with the PRS/Abraxas set-up. I love them - my PRS was a cheapy but it's my number one gigging guitar.
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Seems like an Abraxas or Mule would be a good fit.
I had a McCarty that came with the 58/15's.. I didnt like the pickups at all and sold them as soon as I came to that realization.
I put in a pair of Rebel Yells into the McCarty and I could not be happier.
I got super lucky sold them for huge profit because they had just came out. My chrome covered etched' 58/15" one of the first ones to hit ebay IIRC.
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that FNM album sounds more like alnico nailbomb material (their guitarist at the time used a gibson classic on tour, apparently with the stock 500t/496r set)
but if you want more string separation and note definition than the rebel yell, you should consider the emerald, not the abraxas
the abraxas has that slightly blurry response of alnico 4, like the mule, which actually sounds amazing, but LESS clear
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I know Eric knows BKP's very well. I always hesitate to recommend the Emerald, since I have no experience with this pickup. I often read comments that it is (very) bright. For a dark Gibson LP that could be a plus, for a PRS Custom (in general brighter than a LP) it could be too much. I wouldn't call the Mule blurry btw.
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I wouldn't call the Mule blurry btw.
that's actually the greatest quality about it
it blends the notes together just a bit under gain without sounding harsh or undefined
the emerald is bright, but not overly bright
I think the rebel yell might sound brighter due to the extra upper mids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbojhmBgy5w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ecekLV4yps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-4JG2d1ejY
the PRS Custom 24 model is quite even voiced
even the CE versions with bolt-on maple necks aren't really BRIGHT
the 22 version comes with the dragon II pickup which is really bright and still sounds pretty good
his description of the string scratching noises reminded me of my experience with the aftermath
it was way too middy and sensitive
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I wouldn't call the Mule blurry btw.
that's actually the greatest quality about it
it blends the notes together just a bit under gain without sounding harsh or undefined
It's probably my lack of the English language, cause with blurry I assumed 'undefined'. Your description of the Mule is spot on.
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Thanks guys, appreciate the great feedback.
I completely see what Eric means about the Abraxas. Was looking at the demo video again and can see where it is not quite as "precise" as some other pickups, especially as regards note separation on chords... perhaps more suited to an LP than a PRS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI_fs71W5Mc
But it does sound brilliant - so still on the list.
The mule frequency chart on the BKP page does really emphasize the mid / highs though so that still has me worried given my current issues with the 85/15s. Will go check it out though.
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I’ve owned three PRS SE Custom 24 guitars and tried a lot of different pickups in them to discover what worked best for me. A number of those pickups were BKP so I can probably offer some insight based on direct experience and what I suspect would be a good option based on that experience.
DIRECT EXPERIENCE
Bridge
The Emerald is the most vintage bridge pickup I’ve tried and it was simply way too bright. The core tone was excellent but the highs were overpowering. If you like things bright and/or your amp is dark, it might still work but for most people you’re best leaving this pickup to a Les Paul.
The Crawler was absolutely magical. Its natural home is Blues Rock but that does it an injustice because it’s very versatile indeed, covering anything from Blues to early 80’s Metal. The low end starts giving up a little after that. It’s a dark pickup and makes a PRS feel a little more like a Les Paul. There’s a captivating growl to this one. It has a wonderfully rich tone and offers the best splits you’ll ever find.
The Cold Sweat is another bright pickup but unlike the Emerald, it’s certainly useable in a PRS. It’s not as versatile as the Crawler and is more obviously a Metal pickup. The cleans are pretty good for a ceramic magnet but that magnet will always limit the quality of your cleans. I can see you liking it if you like the Rebel Yell but it is more modern and you sacrifice cleans.
I liked the Holydiver in mine but eventually changed it because it just didn’t nail that 80’s Metal tone I was after on that guitar. You’ve discounted it anyway so it doesn’t matter.
The Miracle Man works really well. The core tone is similar to the Holydiver because it’s smooth, organic, surprisingly warm for a ceramic magnet and is again, strongly reminiscent of 80’s Metal tone. Think of it as a Holydiver on steroids. It’s nothing like as scooped as the EQ chart suggests but it is a bit scooped in the upper mids. Compared to the Holydiver it has a bigger bottom end and more highs.
Neck
I didn’t like the Crawler that much at all so I wouldn’t like the Abraxas either as they’re almost the same. It was a bit dark and far too rounded in the bass for me. In fairness, I’ve only ever found one neck pickup made with 42AWG wire that I actually like and it wasn’t a Bare Knuckle so I guess I just don’t get on with the wire. I prefer my neck pickups to be more articulate in the bottom end and to do that you need 42.5AWG or 43AWG.
In comparison, the Emerald neck was superb. The AIV magnet helps to give it a vintage feel but the 43AWG wire keeps the bottom end very articulate under gain. Cleans are excellent and each note has real weight as it’s a bit thicker and darker than other neck pickups I’ve tried. I generally prefer bright neck pickups but I still loved this one.
The Holydiver also has plenty of cut in the bottom end thanks to the AV magnet and 42.5AWG wire. It sounds relatively thin compared to the Emerald and the light wind keeps it bright and surprisingly vintage sounding.
The Cold Sweat is very similar to the Rebel Yell neck. It's fluid and great for shredding but more obviously a Metal pickup.
SPECULATION
The Abraxas should work really well as it’s like a Crawler taken down a step. The AIV magnet will make it a bit softer in the bass but I imagine the extra brightness will compensate for that. It’s certainly been used for Metal before very successfully and probably sounds closer to 80’S Metal than the Holydiver thanks to the 43AWG wire.
I also think that a Black Dog set would work well. It sits nicely between vintage and modern so will be very versatile. It has the smooth mids of the Holydiver and Rebel Yell but the lighter wind will make it less harsh than the Holydiver and brighter, like the Rebel Yell. It also takes gain like a trooper so is popular with Metal players as well as those looking for something a bit more vintage so it doesn't have the potential issue you might encounter with the Abraxas. Based on everything I’ve tried, I can’t think of any reason why the Black Dog wouldn’t work really well. I think the same could be said of the neck too. It’s not unlike the Holydiver neck but a little thicker, darker and throatier. As I really liked the Holydiver neck but in an ideal world might have liked it to have more of these qualities, the Black Dog neck sounds like it might be ideal.
CONCLUSIONS
I can only speak for myself but if it was me, I’d be tempted to go with a Black Dog set. The bridge should be perfect for what you describe based on its construction and my experience of other Bare Knuckle products. Try as I might I can’t think of anything that fits your description any better.
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I will most definitely go and look into the Black Dogs. I agree that they may be closer to the tone I have in mind (think RY) given they are Alnico V based. I also like the EQ curve. I hadn’t taken them into consideration given the lower DC resistance of the bridge compare to the Abraxas. Likewise, the Crawler also seemed to score too high for my current need (hotter than the RY – on paper at least). More research is called for on both fronts!
Still weary of the Cold Sweats, the graph shows them having really high treble which is the source of most of my issues at the moment.
In any case, thanks for the comprehensive assessment. I’m definitely going to have to consider a mix and match approach on the basis of your suggestions.
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Part of the reason that the Abraxas shows a higher DC resistance is because it uses 43AWG, which is thinner wire than the 42.5AWG used on the Black Dog. The Abraxas is still hotter but it may be closer than you think and anyway, does that really matter? Between your amp and an OD pedal, how much more gain do you really need and how much difference will it make in the real world? Sometimes the differences in DC resistance is more about 'feel' than anything else. Sure, the Cold Sweat wasn't as hot as the Miracle Man but the real difference was that it just sounded that bit more open rather than having all of that compression. I've been thinking about this for a while now and it just seems to tick a lot of boxes for you. It has the EQ you like, it has the smooth mids that I think you like from the Rebel Yell, it's between vintage and modern that you said you wanted and it has the AV magnet like the Rebel Yell. This demo has always impressed me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaqEET376-I
You could mix and match but I really think the Black Dog set would be ideal for you.
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Totally understand what you're saying on the output front. As mentioned above, one of the guitars I'm getting the most joy out of atm is my LP with Burstbucker Pros - and the bridge is in the 8K range I believe. I certainly get plenty of gain on the Mark V with those without having to use any extras.
One other think I didn't really bring up previously is that I was also looking to keep the PRS in its own unique sonic territory. I don't want it to sound like its trying too hard to be an LP as I already have a perfectly good one of those. The closer to classic PAF I get the more it sounds like I'm trying to force the guitar into a space where it's not really at its best, hence my initial inclination to keep away from the Black Dogs and the other true to style vintage PAFs. But then again, all things considered, other than going completely contemporary high gain, there aren't a lot of options which stray from that beaten "PAF" path and are also within the sonic spectrum I'm looking at. After all, the whole point of PRS designing the 85/15s was to create this unique space, and in my mind at least, it's not working out. The video you posted, which I had also checked out previously, is pretty great but, similar to the Abraxas one, is all about the Lester sound which is one of the reasons I initially set it aside. However, they do seem to that extra clarity that I find lacking in the Abraxas (all this based on a couple of youtube videos!) so I think they are going to go to the top of list. Will agonize over this for a few more days and let you guys know how it works out when I make the jump.
Cheers!
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I know what you mean and you're right, I always feel like the vintage hot category is too limited. Having said that, neither the Abraxas or Black Dog are really PAF pickups, they're a modern interpretation of a PAF. A PAF would normally use 42AWG wire and that's what gives it that PAF character but these both use more modern wire. Broadly speaking, the further you move from 42AWG, the less like a PAF it is likely to be. The Abraxas is 43AWG like a number of the contemporary pickups and the Black Dog is 42.5AWG and is also polysol wire instead of plain enamel.
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Quick update: I put the same question to BKP and also asked about the BDs as an option and Tim came back with the following response:
"I designed the Abraxas humbuckers for PRS players with this very much in mind. I find these to be a lot more balanced in a PRS than BDs and not so strident in the mid range plus you get excellent split tone."
Given that he was specifically looking at my concerns when designing the pickup, I guess I'm going to have to go with his recommendation! Though you almost had me on the BDs - at least I still have a plan B if things don't work out.
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I have exchanged a few emails and am trying to decide the right pick up combinations for what I am looking for. I have a 2005 PRS Custom 24. Currently it has an HFS in the bridge and a vintage bass in the neck. The HFS is too nasal and muddy in the lows, and the Vintage Bass was a muddy mess when played in the lower registers. I play almost everything but would like to achieve a high gain sound that can handle anything from Pearl Jam to old school Metallica out of the bridge and A nice thick sound that cleans up well for the neck. I am leaning toward the Cold Sweat or Nail Bomb in the bridge and either the Crawler or VHII in the neck. The guitar is the older style with the 5-way rotary selector. I really like the BurstbuckerII 's in my LP but I am not looking to make my PRS sound like a LP. Suggestions welcome
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Mind you that the Crawler-neck is one of warmest/dark neck-BKP's. I would go VHII or Emerald here.
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I had a PRS Custom 24 and put the Abraxas bridge/Emerald Neck combo in it.
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The Emerald is the most vintage bridge pickup I’ve tried and it was simply way too bright. The core tone was excellent but the highs were overpowering. If you like things bright and/or your amp is dark, it might still work but for most people you’re best leaving this pickup to a Les Paul.
FWIW, I have Emerald sets in two PRSes and love them. However, they are in guitars that either a bit dark sounding (an SE Zach Myers semi-hollow) or with a lower range than your average 6-string (an SE Cu24-7). I am not sure I'd want to put an Emerald bridge PU in a double-cutaway PRS like a regular Cu24, or even a McCarty, for exactly the reasons listed above. For the OP's needs, I'd probably recommend either an Abraxas set or an Emerald neck and an Abraxas bridge.
(Aside: Before I got the Emeralds for my ZM, I tried putting a set of McCarties in it, because I had loved those pickups in my McCarty. That was a disaster -- the McCarty bridge PU is much too dark for an LP/Singlecut design, especially for a semi-hollow.)
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Thought I would update now that I’ve had the pups in for nearly ten days. The PRS has been getting a lot of airtime and I feel it’s really come alive since the switch over from the 85/15s. This is the most transformative pup swap I’ve done to date. I liked the guitar before, but it probably checked all the negative PRS boxes: no personality / sterile, etc. I must say, the 85/15s really didn’t work for me. Far too shrill and lacking body / output. I think perhaps they were trying too hard to cater to the strat crowd with those. If I was doing it again, I would have gone for the HFS / VB combo, and then probably still swapped them out. In any case, I hear the 85/15s are doing well on eBay so I should probably get mine on there before PRS start selling them standalone.
The outcome of the swap has been really interesting as I’ve found myself using settings which I’ve never really spent any time on in my previous years of guitar playing, and in turn, ignoring some of my go-tos (though that is not necessarily a positive). As a reminder, here is the PRS 5-way switching:
Position One: Bridge humbucker
Position Two: Bridge humbucker with neck singlecoil, in parallel
Position Three: Bridge and neck humbuckers
Position Four: Neck singlecoil with bridge singlecoil, in parallel
Position Five: Neck humbucker
The bridge magnet on my set was reversed by BKP to work with the PRS switching.
Position One - Bridge humbucker: Brilliant. This is exactly what I was looking for. This pickup is really built to fix everything that is lacking in a stock Custom 24. Lots of gain, but not too much. Superbly balanced. The guitar comes alive and has a huge personality. Shrillness of the stock pickups is gone. Nothing more that I can really add, absolutely what I was after.
Position Two - Bridge humbucker with neck singlecoil, in parallel: this is an interesting one. I pretty much never used this position in the past but I am seeing a lot of new possibilities here. Not entirely sure how to describe it. Perhaps a more balanced / slightly lower level bridge HB, or a boosted high output bridge single. In any case, it has a lot of honk on this guitar so not good for leads (unless honk is your thing) but for distorted rhythm playing higher up the neck (D / E power chords or higher on the A string type stuff / or U2 gainy delays) where you are looking for more detail / string separation, this is a great option. Like I said, never really stopped on position 4 in the past, but this will come in useful, especially for recording.
Position Three - Bridge and neck humbuckers: similar to two, but slightly more balanced (read warmer), again, a good option for rhythms when you don’t want all out bridge. I guess that should not come as a surprise, but even on an LP, I don’t find this position useful as the neck pickup tends to dominate. With the abraxas, it’s a lot more balanced and I’m suddenly using it a fair bit. As with position 2, it’s honky as well but this one can be used for leads. Nice and creamy and exactly what a good intermediate should sound like. For rhythm, it’s a more balanced version of Position 2, slightly warmer but still best for rhythms higher up the neck. Again, I think it will be handy for recording where the bridge is coming in too harsh on the highs. Just switch over to position 3 and you may avoid having to EQ the signal.
Position Four - Neck singlecoil with bridge singlecoil, in parallel: As mentioned on another post. This one is proving to be a bit of a let-down for me. It’s not really a surprise given the nature of the pickups (I would not get better on an LP with 5 way switching) but I was hoping I would get something useful out of them. Back when I was gigging in an originals band, this was my go to position for clean sounds, usually with dotted 8ths or some other form of delay. With 5 way switching and 2 HBs, I could usually get a nice sound with good presence and definition in the highs. It’s really lacking here (I think due to the neck pickup – which I’m getting to). It’s also surprisingly weak and I have to put on a fair amount of compressor to bring it back up to a decent level (I believe the wiring is good and it certainly puts on a decent showing with distortion, though not really a useful position for a gain tone IMO). I just compared my similarly specced (though not a PRS but same wiring) RY loaded guitar and it definitely sounds much better in this position.
Position Five - Neck humbucker: This is probably why people buy Abraxas sets, though I actually prefer the bridge. The luthier who did the install was posting about the neck pup on Facebook after he put it in. He liked it. In a PRS, and into a Boogie, you immediately understand why these are called Abraxas. As per Tim’s note to me when I was considering this set as an option, it does seem this set was specifically built with a PRS in mind. The warm sustained lead sound is really something to behold and it takes you straight into Santana creamy sustain territory. It’s really impressive and I will admit that I’m enjoying it tremendously and will hang on to it for a while. It’s a warm pickup and yet it’s very “open” at the same time. If I were to compare it to an RY, I would say it is less “focused” and certainly has less presence given it’s warm character, which I am guessing is causing my problems in position 4 . With that said, I have a nagging suspicion that I may want to do swap out the neck (I’m keeping the bridge no matter what) for a more focused pickup in the hope of fixing Position 4 (though it’s not a given it will work out). Perhaps put in an RY or Emerald at some point. I have a strat and several other guitars that will cover this one deficiency just fine, but it’s a force of habit thing: i.e. not all that necessary and something I will probably end up regretting given I would lose out what are currently great and useful positions 2 and 3, but old habits die hard. Something to mull over in any case… Oh and I should add, clean neck is also very nice and does make up a little for a poor position 4. This is very much a case of: “But I don't want to think I've lost a son, so much as gained a daughter” (though somewhat better looking than Princess Lucky). Maybe I can learn to live with that. No rush in any case.
Final thoughts: I think it’s fair to say that while fixing a lot of the problems with a modern day Custom 24, the Abraxas also in turn does take away from some of its qualities, primarily its ability to produce crystalline cleans. However, I feel that PRS are a little too timid with respect to their flagship guitar and are effectively putting a damper on the guitar’s potential by trying to please a specific crowd that are really a minority of PRS owners (i.e. the strat crowd). As a result, I think it really lacked personality, especially with the 85/15s. With the Abraxas, it comes alive. It was a beautiful guitar before, but now it’s a really fun one as well. I should add that I do like relatively modern amounts of gain and play with a V’d Boogie EQ Mark V. I’m not playing classic rock (though nowhere near djent either). Obviously that will lead to a shrill sound with pups that are geared towards the highs, such as 85/15s. Some would argue I should turn the tone knob down, or EQ the amp differently, but that just doesn’t work for me, and in fairness, I didn't have this "shrillness" problem with my other guitars (7 of them). The amp has to be set a certain way to deliver the tones I am after and a change of pickups seems to have fixed a lot of my problems in this case.
Quite the diatribe. Hope it’s useful to someone.
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What a great summary, can’t believe no one has picked up on it for months!
Thank you for taking the time, think I might have to try a set of Abraxas in my Custom 24 SE; although interesting what you say about the cleans when using both pups as single coils, a position I do use.