Replacement machine heads for Les Paul?

[FELINEGUITARS]

But I'd take a tuner off and measure the hole at the back first.

+1

I have seen the ring of lacquer missing myself a few times but it doesnt mean much - that lacquer can get damaged from when the guitar is assembled in the first place and in time it falls off

Some late 70s /early 80s LP did have the larger bushing size but I couldnt tell you what size hole lurks beneath
Remove a machinehead & measure it to be sure!

[Philly Q]

I'd stick a set of 18:1 Grover Rotomatics into it.  The bushings look like push in replacements so standard Grovers should fit right it, and the single screw of a Grover fits right into the bottom hole of the Kluson screw hole.

Interesting ... Doesn't the Jimmy Page signature model LP have Grover tuners of some kind?

It does indeed.  Grovers are very good tuners, but I'm not fond of them simply because they're really heavy.  

Les Pauls aren't prone to neck-heaviness, but they are very hefty guitars.  Being relatively weedy, I like to reduce the load as much as possible, and a set of Kluson-types will save you about 4-5 oz compared with a set of Grovers.

(Just personal opinions, of course  :) )

[Jonesy76]

Interesting ... Doesn't the Jimmy Page signature model LP have Grover tuners of some kind?

It does indeed.  Grovers are very good tuners, but I'm not fond of them simply because they're really heavy.  

Les Pauls aren't prone to neck-heaviness, but they are very hefty guitars.  Being relatively weedy, I like to reduce the load as much as possible, and a set of Kluson-types will save you about 4-5 oz compared with a set of Grovers.

(Just personal opinions, of course  :) )

The Jimmy Page version uses the Grovers, beause the original Rotomatics were the professional guitarists replacement tuner of choice in the late 60's.  Page changed his over, as did Clapton, Beck and even McCartney.  They've been fitted as standard onto most Gibson Customs for many a year now.

I agree with Philly that they are certainly heavy, but I've never found a Les Paul to be a nosediver like say an SG, so it doesn't bother me.  That solidity and weight is just another reason to trust in them.  I'm also 6'5" and big enough to cart around that 14 and a half pound doubleneck that you see in my avatar so I guess weight isn't too much of an issue for me! :P  

[Philly Q]

I'm also 6'5" and big enough to cart around that 14 and a half pound doubleneck that you see in my avatar so I guess weight isn't too much of an issue for me! :P  

 :lol:  You're nearly a foot taller than me!  So you can see why I'm preoccupied with keeping the weight down.  I try to avoid all guitars heavier than about eight and a half pounds.

[carlaz]

OK, having popped one of the tuners out and measured the hole in the wood on the back of the headstock. I think it's 10mm or maybe even slightly more.  Here's a kinda fuzzy closeup (difficult to hold the camera still! ;) of the hole from the back of the headstock:

You can see the rim of metal down there on the bushing, entering from the top of the headstock.  The actual hole in the bushing for the shaft seems much smaller than the hole in the wood: maybe 6mm.

The bushing seems pretty solidly attached.  No clue whether it's a push-in or screw in! I'm not quite sure how I'd even try to get it out sensibly .... I suppose maybe tap it out very carefully from the back?  Reckon I could put new tuner mechanisms into the existing bushings?

The actual tuner mechanism has "JAPAN" printed on its underside.  This suggests to me that it's a Gotoh Kluson, or a Kluson-style made for Gibson by Gotoh in Japan?

[Philly Q]

Yeah, I still think that looks like a conversion bushing, and I'm 100% sure it's a push-in one.  Good pics by the way, I can never get my camera to focus for close-ups!  :)

You could definitely put new Kluson-style tuners into the existing bushings.  As I mentioned somewhere above, I found the holes in the conversion bushings a bit oversized for my locking Gotoh SD90s, but I am very fussy about these things. The bushings I have were from Allparts, they're not necessarily exactly the same as yours.

Alternatively, as the holes are 10mm+, you could take out those bushings and the whole world of cast/sealed tuners with screw-in bushings is open to you!

Removing the push-in bushings is usually quite easy.  Gotoh actually supply a special tool, which is a small metal rod, narrower than the hole at the back but wider than the hole in the bushing - you could use an old 8mm drill bit as an alternative.  Then just place the tool/bit against the base of the bushing from the back of the headstock, and tap (very lightly!) with a hammer.  Once the bushing starts to move, it usually comes out really easily.

The only problem could be if the previous owner decided to go a bit over the top and glue the bushings in - they don't normally need it, but you never know.  Then it might be best to leave them, or take the guitar to a pro...

[carlaz]

Yeah, I still think that looks like a conversion bushing, and I'm 100% sure it's a push-in one. [...]
You could definitely put new Kluson-style tuners into the existing bushings.  

That might be the easiest thing.  The Tonepros TPKB3L tuners are surely an improvement no what I've got now and, from what I can tell, ought to just go right in.

Alternatively, as the holes are 10mm+, you could take out those bushings and the whole world of cast/sealed tuners with screw-in bushings is open to you!
Removing the push-in bushings is usually quite easy. [...]
The only problem could be if the previous owner decided to go a bit over the top and glue the bushings in - they don't normally need it, but you never know.  Then it might be best to leave them, or take the guitar to a pro...

One of my main goals is not going to a pro -- which I would normally do -- since I don't know anything about the relative reputations of local luthiers. :)

I like the rep of the Grovers, and the weight/non-vintage-look doesn't bother me, but the Tonepros Klusons seem like maybe the simplest, most painless route.

Anyone have any feelings about locking vs. non-locking? I'm sure I've read some reports on the 'net from people who didn't like locking tuners for some reason, but they sound like a useful feature on a hardtail guitar.

[Philly Q]

Yeah, I still think that looks like a conversion bushing, and I'm 100% sure it's a push-in one. [...]
You could definitely put new Kluson-style tuners into the existing bushings.  

That might be the easiest thing.  The Tonepros TPKB3L tuners are surely an improvement no what I've got now and, from what I can tell, ought to just go right in.

'Fraid not  :(  - the locking TonePros/Klusons only come with the screw-in bushings.  If you want locking Kluson-style tuners with the existing bushings, it'd have to be the Gotoh SD90-MG set.  They're quite easy to find on eBay if you search for "Gotoh locking" or something.

Anyone have any feelings about locking vs. non-locking? I'm sure I've read some reports on the 'net from people who didn't like locking tuners for some reason, but they sound like a useful feature on a hardtail guitar.

Personally, I love locking tuners, I've got various different types on nearly all my guitars.  Basically because I hate the hassle of changing strings with conventional tuners.  The only drawbacks I can think of are:

1. Some types (Schaller, Planet Waves) are heavier than conventional tuners because they have big thumbwheels on the back.  You can offset this extra weight by replacing the metal tuner buttons with pearloid or ebony ones (top tip!   ).

2. If the locking mechanism were to fail, the posts normally aren't tall enough to wind a string in the conventional way.  I've never heard of this happening, though.

3. There may be some sonar-eared Eric Johnson types who think locking tuners affect the tone.  That may be true with the heavy thumbwheel-style tuners (Schaller and Planet Waves again, also Sperzel but they're made of light alloy).  But other types (Gotoh, Grover, TonePros, PRS) are designed such that they aren't much, if at all, heavier than their conventional equivalents.

[carlaz]

If you want locking Kluson-style tuners with the existing bushings, it'd have to be the Gotoh SD90-MG set.  They're quite easy to find on eBay if you search for "Gotoh locking" or something.

Oh, all right.  Well, I do indeed see some "Gotoh locking tuners" on eBay that claim to fit into Kluson-style mounting holes on Gibson guitars.  No further details about bushings and hole diameters, but I guess we've investigated the existing tuner fittings on my guitar to the point where I can be pretty sure these should just drop right in.

Maybe I can finally ditch that wonky G-string tuner! :)

Personally, I love locking tuners, I've got various different types on nearly all my guitars.  Basically because I hate the hassle of changing strings with conventional tuners.

Yeah, that was my feeling.  Any slight change that might worry those with bionic ears is gonna be irrelevant to me. :)

[carlaz]

I'll have to wait for a friend traveling over to the States in January to pick them up and bring them back (I'm not willing to risk post coming into Colombia, which can all too often go AWOL!) before I can give 'em go, but hopefully I've only another month or so of wonky G-string tuner. :)

Well, it's been rather more than a month now (I dunno why when I look at this post it says it was made in Dec 2007; it's actually 27 May 08!) , but I finally have my replacement machine heads in hand! I'll have a go at installing them later today. :)

(Darn, it's been so long I forgot I'd need new strings as well! :lol: Have to see what I can do with the old ones and then go hunting for new ones.)

[carlaz]

All right!  Got my new tuners installed!  :D

As predicted, the new bushings that shipped with the tuners are too small for the holes in the headstock, but the new shafts pretty much fit right in.  They seem perhaps very slightly looser in the old bushings than did the old tuners, but not too bad.  Eh, what can ya do .... It seems to work just fine, anyway. :)

I really need to put fresh strings in there, but for mo' I've just slipped the old ones back in a tightened things up.  Have to give them a little workout now and see if that wonky G-string is finally gone for sure!

[Philly Q]

They seem perhaps very slightly looser in the old bushings than did the old tuners, but not too bad.  Eh, what can ya do .... It seems to work just fine, anyway. :)

Yeah, I've replaced conventional Gotoh SD90s with SD90-MGs a couple of times now, and although the bushings look the same the locking tuners have ever-so-slightly narrower posts.  The non-locking tuners' posts won't fit through the locking tuners' bushings.  

I don't know why they couldn't make them the same size, it would've saved on tooling costs!