OK, I'm confused now - hotter pickups??!

[AndyR]

Howdie folks, I was somewhat shocked when I got me a new guitar this week and all of my ideas on pickups have been turned upside down!

Sorry it's a bit log-winded - there IS a question at the end!

So far, I've been buying BKPs without asking for any advice, and they're doing exactly what I expected. I put ITs in my favourite Strat, Riff Raffs in my Epi SG, and Mules in my Epi LP. I bought a Baja Tele a few weeks back and, like others, I don't feel the need to upgrade the pickups yet. In the back of my mind, I might go Blackguards or Country Boys, or, or... but I'm not sure what I want really, and the stock ones are doing the business at the moment.

I'm a mid-forties blues-rocker. I'm listening to a lot of Lynyrd Skynyrd and the Allman Brothers in the last few weeks. Guitar-wise I also get off on Rory Gallagher, SRV, Thin Lizzy, early AC/DC, Ted Nugent... Hopefully, you can see why the various pickups have been going into the various guitars (very successfully).

Then this week the missus tells me I have money to spend, and I accidentally(!) bought a Gibson Explorer. I went out looking for an Epi Korina - planning to pimp it with BKPs, etc... We found a shop with two of them, but next to them was this gorgeous Gibson in a cherry finish (much more to my taste). After a good hour of trying them, I decided on the Gibson, thinking, "I'll replace these plastic looking pickups". I was thinking "blues-rock", probably Riff Raffs, maybe taking them out of the SG and giving the SG some MQs or possibly Stormy Mondays.

When I got it home though, I found it has a seriously higher output than the Mule and Riff Raff equipped Epis. So at that point I went on the web to see what I've bought...  500T bridge and 496R neck - Gibson's ceramic pickups. I've been studiously ignoring all the modern and hi-output BKPs thinking, "I want vintage/vintage-hot sounds".

But this guitar with its pups is a real eye-opener. I've been playing it non-stop (after setting it up) for the last few days. It is the blues-rock monster for me. The thing that gets me is this: the pups work well almost all the way down to zero on the guitar volume controls. The lower output Mules and Riff Raffs (on my amp settings) get a bit "weedy" for me below five or so – like all pups I've ever used. What I'm finding is the 500T and 496R produce more "vintage" tones at 5 or so, clean-up usably below this (almost down to nothing), and above 5, rather than get louder they just go into "that's what I want for solos!!" territory.

My question is this - Is this how modern high output pups usually behave? Have I been an old fuddy-duddy in search of "vintage" tone, ignoring what modern pups could do for me?! I love the Mules and Riff Raffs, but now I'm thinking that I probably want to go for Cold Sweats maybe in the Explorer.

I'm convinced BKPs can improve on the Gibson pups, nice as they are. However, I'm enjoying it as it is so the choice is some way off. I'm not in a hurry. Probably, some time in the future, I'll try the SG's Riff Raffs in the Explorer before I do anything else... But I am intrigued to find out whether anyone has opinions/advice on this "old-bloke discovered ceramic pups" scenario!

Many thanks in advance...

[Scotty477]

The Gibson 496R/500T combination is pretty much given a lot of bad press, but they really aren't that bad.

They are very high output pups, although Gibson won't say exactly how high. They come as stock on a few Gibson Explorers, Flying V's and LP Classic.

I used them for years on my LP Classic and found they were alright but lacked a bit in warmth in the bridge 500T, whilst the neck 496R could never be used at full volume as it was simply too overpowering and muddy.

Remember this was in an unchambered LP, so in the Explorer I'm sure they will perform very differently.

I eventually took my 496R and 500T set out and popped in BKP Emeralds in my LP but as I said they were ok for full in yer face rock and (surprisingly) clean tones. I just couldn't get my LP to sound bluesy enough with them.

I know BKP do some ceramic pickups and I'm sure that a few people will be able to help you out here.

[PhilKing]

You don't mention your amp, but I am guessing that it is a valve amp.  I have the range of BK's and play similar things to you.  The higher output pickups will drive your amp a lot more on the front end.  A lot of tte old classic rock tunes were the sound of a small valve amp being driven flat out with a booster in front of it.  If you up the output of the pickups, then you have the boost built into the guitar.

I still like the lower output pickups into a smaller valve amp with a booster, but sometimes when I want to wail, I'll pull out my explorer with a Warpig/MQ combo or my PRS Clone with the Miracle Man set.  The mid-range BK's will do exactly what you are after.  The Crawler, Rebel Yell, Cold Sweat and Holy Diver can all drive the amp for classic tones, though the Cold Sweat is the only set in that group with a ceramic bridge.  

When you are ready to upgrade you should talk to Tim, he can tell you the set you need to get the sound you are after.

[ericsabbath]

the 500t is one of the highest output and probably the most underrated pickup on the market
the painkiller is a great substitute for 500t
it has a bit less output and it's a lot cleaner and deeper with more detailing and control, but has the same strong, bright, thick and middy voicing

[MDV]

Hi mate,

How do BK high output pickups clean up?  

It varies from OK to very, very well. There are a few that you'll love.

The miracle man will get closest to the 500Ts sound, but with a much sharper, clearer high end and a tighter bass with more low mids.

I wouldnt recommend either the 500T or miralce man for a guitar thats supposed to back off to do bluesy licks as well. But since the 500T is your refernce point, and you like it we'll go from there!

The painkiller cleans to a biting rock tone. You'll get an OK ACDC sound out of it 1/3 of the way up. Blues can wail on em but they're a bit hard-edged and crunchy for blues IMO.

The warpig would be an OK choice: the all-out sound of it will be hotter than the 500T and has more mids. The clean and crunch tones will be much, much better. Ironicaly enough, y'see, the pig cleans up very well.

Those are options/things for you to think about.

What I'd recommend is either a nailbomb, cold sweat or crawler. They will give a bit less power than the 500T, but well into metal territory (in order of mention: NB>CS>Crawler). They will also give you very convincing blues to blues-rock tones.

If I had to pick one, I'd say Crawler. I think you'd get on very well with it.

[il˙ti]

Crawler has that classic blues sound but with enough power to really stay clear under distortion, and the volume knob is very good for that. I can have my 80s metal lead tone with the volume rolled all the way up going through an OD and a gainy amp, then go to Zeppelin tones by backing off the volume to about 5. Also just going from 9 to 10 has a noticeable difference in distortion level.
With jsut the overdrive pedal into a clean amp, I can have alll the gain I need for blues leads, then back the volume down for more subtle stuff. It also responds very well to pick attack.
It think it'll do very well in an explorer if you want a classic blues sound but with a whole load of power when you need it. Nailbomb would be a good choice too, but it seems to be more modern in it's voicing. That is of course if you prefer the warmth of alnico over the tightness/brightness of ceramics.

[AndyR]

Whooo, lots to think about already, thanks guys...

My original thoughts, before I got it home and discovered the high output in the guitar already, was Black Dog or Emerald territory. And, like I said, I was maybe even considering swapping the Riff Raffs out of the SG and getting something different for that (I'm sure the 500T and 496R won't work for me in the SG - the new Explorer seems acoustically much warmer than the SG).

On the amp front, I'm playing through a POD XT live, into a mixing desk and studio monitors; all in the living room (I have a lovely understanding wife!). I've spent a good couple of years tweaking tones for recording and living room purposes, and although I'm a confirmed valve-amp man, I'm very happy with this set-up now. My old valve amp just cannot compete with it for "valve-amp behaviour" at even "quite loud" living room volumes. My valve amp is a 50W Laney master volume Pro-Tube combo, made a year or two before they became "AOR" and started having the added midboosts and other whatnots. It's a gorgeous amp, has compared very favourably live with various Marshalls in various bands over the years, but it needs to be driven loud enough to compete with drums before it starts doing the business. Right at the moment, I just can't use it (or lift it!!).

Anyway, with the POD XT, I can get authentic enough valve amp tones and response - even that bluesy raunch where it cleans up nice when backing-off the guitar volume or the picking. My favourite models are of a JTM45, a Fender Blackface, a Plexi Lead, and a model of Marshall's 1974X re-issue (if I was in the market for an amp, that would be it, we even looked at one the other day, but I suspect it wouldn't better my Laney, and it would still be too loud/heavy!).

I wasn't that impressed with the more over-driven XT models until I waved this Explorer at them over the last few days - they seem to come alive a bit more with it, so maybe the higher output pups (and the ceramic brightness) drive the XT better in general - maybe I need to consider this. I've even been wondering "Warpigs" already (this is possibly on the strength of your posts on other threads MDV!!) I assume you mean the ceramic ones? They always look a bit "industrial" to me, though... although I must admit I like the idea of adjustable poles on both coils – must give a lot of versatility for fine-tuning the tone.

My gut feeling at the moment is that eventually I will go for vintage hot territory - once I've calmed down and got over the "new guitar" novelty. However, if by then I can't let go of the "higher output", I think I'll end up leaning towards the Cold Sweat or Crawler area. I'm sure I do need to try the Riff Raffs I have already before I make any decision – it'll give me an idea of how the guitar behaves with lower output, and more importantly how it behaves with alnico instead of ceramic. I also think that this time I might need to consult Tim himself – once I've figured out exactly what it is I'm trying to achieve!!!

 ...and there was I thinking I'd nearly bought all the BKP models I'd ever be interested in... (sigh)

Many thanks again.

[MDV]

Nope, standard A5 pig.

The ceramic sounds sharper, tighter and smoother. Better for (and IMO the best for) fast and brutal metal.

It cleans up pretty well, but not as well as the A5.

I wouldnt get too hung up on the fact that a 500T is ceramic. The principle difference here, its seems from your posts, is a more powerfull pickup. I'd guess that you'd find a powerfull A5 more pleasing still than a ceramic because they back off better.

[AndyR]

Cheers for that MDV - I am starting to get "hung up" on the ceramic aspect. Partly, because I can hear the tightness that these pups have, but also because the guitar is leading me down the paths of metal! (Just been watching the Grand Prix and bashing out some riffs).

I do need to let this guitar bed in for a bit, and see what it leads me to play. After all, the reason I bought it was for a different look, feel, and sound from the more traditional strat/sg/tele/lp quartet already here. I nearly bought a wine red Gibson LP instead that day - it was gorgeous and was obviously classier than my Epi (and this Explorer, incidentally), but in the end I walked away from it because I've already got the LP base covered at the moment and I was after something different.

What I need to do is to play this Explorer in and decide between:
a) I usually like all my guitars to be versatile across all styles in their own right,
or
b) Would I like a guitar that really does metal well, and is it this one?

In the end, I think it will be a), and I think you might be right that A5 will be the way.

There is something I've noticed though. Machinehead (and some other posts I've read) seems to suggest that the 500T might be lacking a bit of warmth in some applications - but this Explorer's bridge tone has a fair bit more warmth to it than my Riff Raff loaded Epi SG!! In addition, I don't seem to be suffering too much from muddiness in the 496R. Comparing them acoustically, it does sound like the Explorer's woods etc give a better all-round tonal response/performance than the SG does (which is re-assuring, considering the difference in price!!).

I'm now convinced that I ought to do some swapping around of pups to see how the A5 Riff Raffs work in the Explorer (possibly even the A4 Mules - but I'm not actually expecting that to work so well). Looks like I've got some soldering to do...

[AndyR]

Here's an update:
My Explorer now has Riff Raffs and won't be letting them go!!

I decided to bite the bullet this morning and swap the Riff Raffs from my SG to see what they would do.

It's a stunning difference to both the Explorer AND the Riff Raffs. I'm certain now that I don't want high output pups in the Explorer, it is gorgeous with the Riff Raffs (and I much prefer the look of the nickel covers I have on them to the open black coil look of the Gibson pups). The guitar still does as much rock/metal as I want/need, but now it is more of an all-rounder (it even produces nice slide tones, which it wouldn't before). In addition, I'm finding that the guitar still has its "usable with the volume rolled off below 5" - the Riff Raffs don't get "weedy" like they did in the SG. More to do with the guitar's mojo methinks now, rather than the higher output pups I was originally asking about.

Meanwhile I've managed to fix the acoustic tone of my SG while I was at it – what a result!  :D  The studs for the bridge and the stop-tailpiece were somewhat loose in the body - I'd just been reading in a Dan Erlewine book last night that this was not entirely desirable for good tone. So, an extra bit of time spent to rectify that before restringing, and it sings a bit more now.

All in all, a good mornings work!

The Gibson pups have gone in the SG for now. Incidentally, they both appear to be 500Ts (?!) This might be why I'm not getting muddy neck tones? Anyway, these pups work much better for me in the SG, and the open coils look OK on this guitar (for my taste that is, I still prefer covered pups). I'm not sure they'll still be there this time next year though - I'm not decided yet, but the GAS is starting to build for MQs (and MDV has me thinking about Warpigs now). However, now that both guitars work to my satisfaction, I have more pressing projects that are likely to want BKPs first.

Thanks for everyone's help.