Author Topic: Miked recording - Is it always so annoying? (Read 9095 times)

hamfist · « **Reply #15 on:** May 04, 2008, 09:35:10 PM »

Quote from: hunter

For me it's always easy peasy, like 2 minutes playing with an SM57 and checking with a headphone connected to my mixer and I'm done. Usually between cone and border of the speaker, on axis, like 3-4 inches away from the cab.

Maybe I am just lucky that my Mackie mixer's preamps are really good and that's why it has the punch and the depth ...

I'm with you Hunter. I never seem to have much of a problem. Just whack the mic, on axis, up about 1cm from the grill cloth, half way between the centre and the edge of the speaker. If I want more depth and grunt, I'll move the mic towards the edge of the speaker. If I want more sparkle and brightness, I'll move it towards the centre of the speaker.
I use "cheap as chips" Behringer mixing desk pre-amps too.
Maybe it' s because I (we ?) don't use too much gain to start with, and use mid-heavy speakers. That certainly describes me for sure.

Sorry Machniehead, that doesn't help you much. But it may suggest that your speakers may not be the best for mic'ing.

_tom_ · « **Reply #16 on:** May 04, 2008, 10:06:08 PM »

I dont always use much gain either and have good speakers (G12H which I think hunter uses, or used to use) as well, so I guess its all in the preamp. Think I will be getting an EMU 0404 usb to use with my SM57 if I can find a job for the summer. Dont know if the E-MU have good preamps or not, but MDV likes his from what I can tell.

ailean · « **Reply #17 on:** May 04, 2008, 10:14:16 PM »

Quote from: MrBump

Interesting read about the SM57 fakes... I'd NEVER have noticed, certainly not from the visual aspect.

Mark.

I got suspicious when I couldn't get a decent recording level from the mic, I had to turn up the mic level almost to full (I have an E-MU 0404, purchased on Mark's previous recomendation), and even then the sound was thin and weedy. I was using my LP with Nailbombs, through the TT and it's V30 cab, and I had it a loud volumes for room playing and still the recording came back wimpy. I know the gear has a reasonable reputation so I started to think something was up. A little research and I found out there are a LOT of Shure fakes out there. I've ordered a new unit from Dolphin, so hopefully that will be the real deal :)

viking · « **Reply #18 on:** May 04, 2008, 10:32:29 PM »

Quote

Maybe I am just lucky that my Mackie mixer's preamps are really good and that's why it has the punch and the depth ...

No doubt,Hunter.

Quote

A good preamp ... as in the unit I'm recording to?

. I couldn't get a decent guitar tone with my Yamaha 16 tracks (XG16 ?) until i got a good pre-amp ,a SPL Gold Mike.The pre-amps used in these recorders are very weak and cheap,so you have to buy an external pre-amp to put between your mic and your recorder.Some are very expensive but even a rather cheap one will help tremendously.Look at PreSonus for ex. and try it for a few days .It's logical if you think about it:there is a multitrack recorder and a built-in mixing desk +mic,everything in the same package for a very small price.They couldn't give you 8 good pre-amps for that price,too expensive,so,the best thing to do is to buy a single (stereo if possible)good quality pre-amp ,esp. for accoustic instruments !Good luck!

Oli · « **Reply #19 on:** May 04, 2008, 10:40:19 PM »

The best way to get the tone you're after when miking up a cab, is to have a friend :) Get him (or her) to play your guitar in the same style as you, while you have some headphones on, and move the mic around until you get the sound you're after- don't worry about what is traditional, ie. off/on axis, just move it until you're happy- it could happen to be in front of the speaker, it could be 2 feet in front of the cab, it could be out to the side.... use your ears, not your eyes for miking :) As others have said, turn the gain down, and the mids up a bit (if you normally scoop), it'll stop that nasty fizzy tone that you get with lots of gain.

You may want to try using two mics to try and capture the sound- a 57 is a good starting point, but try and find a mic that has more mids/lows- the 57 is a fairly bright mic. Not saying that it has no lows, but pairing it with another mic can do wonders for your sound :)

And finally preamps- get a couple of decent ones, lower end mixers will have cheaper pre's, so get an outboard preamp, and run it line-in to the desk. Don't use EQ or compression on the way into the computer (or whatever you record to), apply it when you're mixing :)

tomjackson · « **Reply #20 on:** May 05, 2008, 12:44:00 AM »

I agree with the preamp comments, they are a very important and undervalued part of the singnal chain. I use a TLA audio fatman for everything I record and it sounds way better that straight into a multi tracker. It was about £200 5 or 6 years ago but has added something to every recording I've ever done and therefore a good investment.

That said, there are so many other factors involved..speakes, room sound, listening position.

You could try a condenser mic positioned from where you are hearing it sound good and see how that goes, or even two to simulate your ears :lol:

SM57's are an industry standard and I love em, but they colour the sound a lot, really flatter the mids for rock but are not too subtle. Some condenser mics with higher SP level capabilities may give you a closer sounds to what you are hearing.

The best method is trial and error, mainly error for myself though!

Scotty477 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 05, 2008, 02:06:03 AM »

Very good advice guys and I'm really, really grateful for all the help.

The problem would certainly appear to be a weak preamp on the Boss recorder. I was having to turn up the input level way too high and it still sounded underpowered.

The SM57 I'm using was bought from a large retailer (Guitar Guitar) so I'm pretty sure it's genuine.

I have a choice to make here. Do I persevere with experimenting in recording amps or stick to using multi effect unit modelling ....

Time is scarce for me to do miked recording - really only at the weekend and the odd few hours during the week that I can steal from the wife and kids

- so I don't want to spend hours hunting for the right mike position.

I really should have done a lot more research on this subject but I honestly thought that I would be able to get it going after a bit of trial and error with the mike position.

I'll take a few days to think about what I'm going to do.

The truly annoying this is that I like the amp tone - particularly the OD2 lead channel for solo's. I've been searching for this type of solo sound for years.

Something will however have to give and I have a sneaky suslicion that I may return to my GT-6 and Tonelab LE and stick with them.

That is, until the GAS for an amp hits me again ....

Scotty477 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 05, 2008, 02:13:38 AM »

Quote from: ailean

Is it a genuine SM57?

I just bought one from the Amazon marketplace and it's a fake (and being returned). It sounds awful, I'm hopeful of a better tone once I've got a genuine unit.

If you bought it secondhand check this article:

http://www.tts.se/UserFiles/File/FalskaShure-mikrofoner.pdf

That's an excellent article.

I had a good look at my SM57 (and box etc) and mine appears to be genuine, as far as I can tell.

donovan.x · « **Reply #23 on:** May 05, 2008, 06:59:23 AM »

I am in a simaler situation to you, I use a line 6 guitar port for all my recordings but I am looking into buying an amp for my living room but not for recording. I understand your frustration from recording sessions with previous bands. I always found that guitars only sounded good when they were cranked and I think that might be the prob. Can you really get the sound you are after in a domestic setting? If your happy with recording with your tone lab then why change? Most studios/bands nowadays use some form of amp moddeling to get their sound when recording, it's easier and more versatile.
I am going to get a Laney Lionheart but I have no intention of recording with it because I know if I dont have the right equipment and a good recording enviroment I am never going to get the sound I hear, on a recording.
This is just my opinion based on personel experience and is in no way based on any facts or technical knowledge.
Hope some of this makes sense, its still early. :lol: 8)

hamfist · « **Reply #24 on:** May 05, 2008, 08:24:48 AM »

Quote from: Machinehead

I have a choice to make here. Do I persevere with experimenting in recording amps or stick to using multi effect unit modelling ....

You just cannot beat using modellers for home recording, especially when, like me, your main opportunities for recording are when others in the house are asleep.
Personally, I only record amps when I am recording a final mix of a song, or actually wanting to demo the amp. For all demo recordings and fiddling about, recording silently is definately a huge bonus.
Keep the amp, for what you like about it. It will also be a huge benefit when you play with a band. Get a cheap pre-amp, like this http://www.dv247.com/invt/9212/ , and you may find your amp recordings improve too. I have one of those pre-amps, and they are sturdy, and noticeably better quality than cheapo SS ones. Personally, I still find my cheapo SS ones fine, but if you are struggling, it's not too much money to spend to experiment a little bit.

JDC · « **Reply #25 on:** May 05, 2008, 04:38:57 PM »

I've never mics anything but I read on the andy sneap forum that sm57s have high impedance (or was it low impedance) so the preamp does make a difference (I think)

can someone verify that I'm not talking rubbish please :)

tomjackson · « **Reply #26 on:** May 05, 2008, 09:34:51 PM »

Not the cheapest solution but an Axetrack might be an option. No need to worry about mic position as it's built in and you should be able to use without waking the kids.

I've not used one though so not sure about sound leakage....

JJretroTONEGOD · « **Reply #27 on:** May 06, 2008, 02:03:20 AM »

I recommend the book 'The Recording Engineers Handbook' by Bobby Owinski. It's THE best book I have read on guitar micking techniques. It makes you realise just how many ways are possible and it will open your mind so much. I recommend trying an SM57 angled 45 degrees off axis pointing toward the central speaker bell, at around 3/4 from the exact centre, this should get you 95 percent of the way there.

JJretroTONEGOD · « **Reply #28 on:** May 06, 2008, 02:09:37 AM »

I recommend this if you can afford it!

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/35685/a/r/e/base

this is actually a proffessional quality desk, and is worth every penny.

This one is even more affordable:

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/35683/a/r/e/base

I've orderd the top one, so will let you know what it's like when I get it.

kevincurtis · « **Reply #29 on:** May 06, 2008, 08:05:09 AM »

Mackie units are excellent value for money - I have a 1402...but I also now have a TLA 5050 pre-amp/compressor which is of course better - but it is specialised for one/two jobs. The sound you get back from your speakers is entirely dependant on everything in the signal chain - whatever is your weakest link will limit it quite severely.

For my money you should go with a modeller, or get a speaker simulator (a decent one will give you better results). If you dont have the capabilities to play a valve amp with the wick up in a decent room then you will probably be dissapointed with the results you get, so if it's a hobby, get recording, learn your craft of song writing and production, then worry about micing up :)