do you pronouce 'luthier' the french way?

[maverickf1jockey]

Did anybody here passed GCSE English? because your consensus is wrong.

Fortunately, language does not operate on a democratic basis to be decided by some greebo metal heads on a pickup website.  It is pronounced loot-i-er  - the Oxford English Dictionary, Collins Dictionary, Webster's Dictionary and every other dictionary says so (even the ministry of disinformation, i.e. Wikipedia).  

Even online dictionaries get it right: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luthier

Furthermore, it does not mean gee-tar-mak-er as the word applies to makers and repairs of all types of stringed instruments (but particularly the French instrument known as the 'luth').

Those of you who have failed, be ashamed and stay over in detention until you have copied all words begining luth- out of the dictionary.   :D

But dictionary definitions are affected by colloquialisms. The same goes for the pronunciation of certain words. The dictionaries you mentioned have limited space and so go for one single pronunciation to save space (For example biscuit is pronounced 'biskit' (the original English spelling) but the French pronunciation, from which the modern spelling is derived, is 'Biz-Kwee'.

Hundreds of years ago people spoke like Chaucer (without the rhyming couplets) but now they speak totally differently.

Luthier will be pronounced 'Loo-thee-er' in dictionaries to come as it is the most common way of pronouncing the word used by modern Britain and the world at large.

[Roobubba]

and every other dictionary says so

Hang on a moment... You've checked EVERY dictionary?!

Besides, I'm sure there are violin/viola makers out there who would take great offense at you describing them as "luthiers". I know one who does, for sure!

And Tom beat me to pointing out your absolute PEARLER in the first sentence - EPIC FAIL! :) :) :)

I would be very interested to hear any other examples of a "th" similar to this instance being pronounced with a hard 't' (Believe it or not, I am reasonably well educated and have more than a marginal interest in the academic!).

Roo

[Roobubba]

(without the rhyming couplets)

Ahhh, but how do you KNOW they didn't all speak in rhyming couplets?

:D

Roo

[gwEm]

saying 'loot-ee-ay' sounds very pretentious. a person who deals with furs is called a 'furrier' -> 'fuh-ree-er'... those are my justifications for saying 'Loo-thee-er'

[Roobubba]

saying 'loot-ee-ay' sounds very pretentious. a person who deals with furs is called a 'furrier' -> 'fuh-ree-er'... those are my justifications for saying 'Loo-thee-er'

Indeed, otherwise all fur-related workers would be brilliant mathematicians, too!

[HairyChris]

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I agree - but in a sense it does operate on a democratic basis because "normal" pronunciation changes over time.  The dictionary makers even change the meanings of words if enough people use them incorrectly for a long enough time  :roll: .

I'm sure "loot-i-er" (or even "loo-tee-ay") is correct, but I still say "loo-thee-er".  Init.

I'm with you on this one.

FWIW I did English at A level & this word didn't come up. Oddly.  :D

Admittedly I'm from the Portsmouth area so I pronounce it 'Loof-ee-er' but that's another matter completely.

[dave_mc]

[(For example biscuit is pronounced 'biskit' (the original English spelling) but the French pronunciation, from which the modern spelling is derived, is 'Biz-Kwee'.

beess-ku-wee

I would be very interested to hear any other examples of a "th" similar to this instance being pronounced with a hard 't' (Believe it or not, I am reasonably well educated and have more than a marginal interest in the academic!).

Roo

beethoven. that's not english, of course.

outhouse. that's probably cheating though, as it's made from two separate words.

theresa is pronounced with a hard t, though.

[Elliot]

Game on forum bros, that pearler as you put woz intentional - I was fully aware of the howler and it was part of the humour I intended.  

Of course pronunciation changes over time, but that doesn't make mis-pronunciation a virtue, it just shows collective ignorance.  Northerners often omit articles from their sentences - its doesn't mean that their sentences are grammatically correct just because they do it every day.

As to checking all dictionaries - I've checked every dictionary that matters and all the other ones follow those.  I would add that violin makers are technically referred to as luthiers whether they like it or not.

The word luthier is utterly pretentious anyway, according to the OED it wasn't used in England until around 1879, long after people stopped making lutes (on a large scale, at least).  The lateness of the word's introduction into English accounts for why we still use the French pronunciation: the word has never become a naturalised word.    

When applied to electric guitar makers, its laughable, why use such a pretentious word?  You all want to anglicise the pronunciation, so why use an anachronistic French word in the first place?  Why not a non-grandiose English word like guitar-maker?  In fact I decree that as of this day I shall never use the word again.

[WezV]

tbh - i just got used to people referring to me as a luthier.  wasnt trying to be stuck up about it but it did stick:wink:

and i reckon i could build a lute if i had to!!!   :P

[maverickf1jockey]

[(For example biscuit is pronounced 'biskit' (the original English spelling) but the French pronunciation, from which the modern spelling is derived, is 'Biz-Kwee'.

beess-ku-wee

I've just done an As level French course and I'd say it's 'Biz-kwee' (Taking into account that you'd be replicating a French accent whilst saying it, making the 'I' a hard 'E'.)

Taking that into account perhaps 'Beez-kwee' would be more accurate (the 'ku' sound is just the sound most people make with the letter 'K' as far as I can tell.).

[Elliot]

Cool - can you make me a lute?  Its an instrument I always wanted to learn.

[WezV]

i didnt say it would be a good lute!!

actually in all seriousness, some nice looking lute kits here
http://www.earlymusicshop.com/cat/stringinstruments/lutes/lute.htm#ems

but i would rather do a hurdy gurdy!!

If i start doing that i might have to adopt the 'master luthier' title ... at that point feel free to pull the archtop acoustic out of my arse :P

[dave_mc]

beess-ku-wee

I've just done an As level French course and I'd say it's 'Biz-kwee' (Taking into account that you'd be replicating a French accent whilst saying it, making the 'I' a hard 'E'.)

Taking that into account perhaps 'Beez-kwee' would be more accurate (the 'ku' sound is just the sound most people make with the letter 'K' as far as I can tell.).

it's pretty quick into the "ku", but i'd say it's beess-ku-wee. much like "oui" is pronounced "oo-ee" (but the first "ou" bit is very quick, and most english people shorten it to "wee" as saying "oo" followed by "ee" quickly gives you something approximating a "w").

not too sure about whether it's more like an "s" or "z", when i say it with a french accent it's kinda halfway between.

[Roobubba]

Ahh but using proper nouns is cheating, Dave!

But Elliot touched on a very important point:

Of course pronunciation changes over time, but that doesn't make mis-pronunciation a virtue, it just shows collective ignorance. Northerners often omit articles from their sentences - its doesn't mean that their sentences are grammatically correct just because they do it every day.

Pronunciation and grammar are two very different things, and you have lumped them together with dialects, too!
Dialects are not to be diminished or side-lined from the English language, they make up a rich and diverse pool of new and old words which keep our language evolving!.  That's not an excuse for instances where general ignorance results in atrocious grammar, but the two should be separated!

Also, a clear disctinction should be made between the written and spoken word. For example, in Hull (or as it's pronounced correctly, 'Ull), it would perfectly acceptable to say that: there's ner sner on edden rerd (there's no snow on Hedon Road). It would be incorrect for it to be written any differently from one dialect region to another, though!

That said, general ignorance is one of the (arguably more minor) banes of modern society, but I think it's too far to lump the pronunication of a word (a word we all agree is totally pretentious) in with general ignorance of the English language.

This especially is true given that it appears to be the only word anyone can think of (that's not a proper noun or result of conjoining two words) where a th is recommended to be pronounced with a hard 't'.

Which brings me back to my example of "restaurant". Should we start saying all words recently derived from foreign languages in accents mimicking that language? Just because 'someone' decided that this word is pronounced this way, doesn't make them right in the first instance! You could argue that following that pronunciation was an act of general ignorance on the people who used it originally.

At the end of the day, we're all agreed: if you go round saying "looteeay", you'll sound like a right t**t!

Keep it coming :)

Roo

[Elliot]

I knew you would get me for the grammar/pronunciation/dialect category errors that I was committing in my above post.  I entirely agree with you and have always argued against illogical prescriptive grammarians.  To be honest, I couldn't resist a cheap shot at the northern dialect  :D