Author Topic: do you pronouce 'luthier' the french way? (Read 59449 times)

Philly Q · « **Reply #30 on:** May 21, 2008, 08:51:05 PM »

Quote from: Roobubba

Dialects are not to be diminished or side-lined from the English language, they make up a rich and diverse pool of new and old words which keep our language evolving!

Those who aren't fond of local accents and dialects won't need to put up with them too much longer, I fear.

It seems to me that 90% of under-25s, wherever they live in the UK, talk as if they spent their formative years dividing their time equally between East London, South Central LA and Kingston, Jamaica. Which I find totally baffling.... I have two words for Britain's wannabe suburban gangstas. Tim Westwood. :?

Elliot · « **Reply #31 on:** May 22, 2008, 08:56:52 AM »

I might add that there are plenty of French words that have been recently grafted into English like luthier that are pronounced in the French way such as parfumeur, sommelier, maitre d', aide-mémoire, attaché, restaurateur, etc.

The difficulty with the descriptive approach to language as advocated here (the 'if people speak that way, then it adds to the rich development of language over time and is thus correct') is that it has to concede to a relativist view of linguistic standards which ultimately ends up in the babel that Philly Q describes.

Roobubba · « **Reply #32 on:** May 22, 2008, 09:24:55 AM »

Quote from: Elliot

I might add that there are plenty of French words that have been recently grafted into English like luthier that are pronounced in the French way such as parfumeur, sommelier, maitre d', aide-mémoire, attaché, restaurateur, etc.

The difficulty with the descriptive approach to language as advocated here (the 'if people speak that way, then it adds to the rich development of language over time and is thus correct') is that it has to concede to a relativist view of linguistic standards which ultimately ends up in the babel that Philly Q describes.

To quote James Hetfield: Sad, but true :(

Innit.

nfe · « **Reply #33 on:** May 22, 2008, 11:37:38 AM »

Quote from: Philly Q

It seems to me that 90% of under-25s, wherever they live in the UK, talk as if they spent their formative years dividing their time equally between East London, South Central LA and Kingston, Jamaica. Which I find totally baffling.... I have two words for Britain's wannabe suburban gangstas. Tim Westwood. :?

This is something I am excited to be escaping by moving home to Scotland, where I've only very rarely encountered that nonsense.

But here in Birmingham, a couple white, upper-class-as-hell early-teen lad's regularly call me "blood" at work. It's farcical.

Dreichlift · « **Reply #34 on:** May 22, 2008, 12:55:27 PM »

I wouldn't say luthier is a new word in the english language, I mean we call it english but it's origins are french (norman), german(saxon), norse and latin (What have the Romans ever done for us?) in origin anyway. I'm pretty sure they had lutes and luthiers when the Normans invaded.

Anyway I say you just let us Scots take over and teach you all gaelic anyway :D

MrBump · « **Reply #35 on:** May 22, 2008, 01:03:24 PM »

Have I just entered an alternative reality, more closely aligned with University Challenge?!?!

I'm all in favour of literary expression (and non-US spell checkers (favor/favour???)). Not so long ago it was treason to start a sentence (let alone a paragraph) with the word "But"... Now it's a well used literary tool. Luthier is an odd word to pronounce, and funnily enough, is almost IMPOSSIBLE to say while sounding cool.

And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?

"Beeth-oven, dude!"

Mark.

Roobubba · « **Reply #36 on:** May 22, 2008, 01:33:27 PM »

Quote from: MrBump

Have I just entered an alternative reality, more closely aligned with University Challenge?!?!

I'm all in favour of literary expression (and non-US spell checkers (favor/favour???)). Not so long ago it was treason to start a sentence (let alone a paragraph) with the word "But"... Now it's a well used literary tool. Luthier is an odd word to pronounce, and funnily enough, is almost IMPOSSIBLE to say while sounding cool.

And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?

"Beeth-oven, dude!"

Mark.

While it should be noted that I'm no expert on language matters, I remain fairly sure that starting sentences with the word 'But' should be completely and utterly banned. But what do I know?

Roo

nfe · « **Reply #37 on:** May 22, 2008, 01:56:20 PM »

Quote from: Dreichlift

Anyway I say you just let us Scots take over and teach you all gaelic anyway :D

What, with the massive 1% of us who can speak it? :lol:

More Scottish people speak French than Gaelic.

Elliot · « **Reply #38 on:** May 22, 2008, 02:17:34 PM »

'I'm pretty sure they had lutes and luthiers when the Normans invaded'

I don't think the lute had developed from the arabic Oud by 1066 - it certainly didn't appear in Northern Europe until about 1400.

As I said - the OED (which unlike many dictionaries is not a prescriptive dictionary, but a historical dictionary based on when a word can be proved to be first used) has the first use of the word in 1879 and the main cluster of usage in the 1950s. There is no record in the most accurate source we have (the OED) of it being used earlier - so whilst they had 'lute makers' earlier on, they didn't call themselves luthiers.

WezV · « **Reply #39 on:** May 22, 2008, 03:29:03 PM »

Quote from: Roobubba

Quote from: MrBump
Have I just entered an alternative reality, more closely aligned with University Challenge?!?!

I'm all in favour of literary expression (and non-US spell checkers (favor/favour???)). Not so long ago it was treason to start a sentence (let alone a paragraph) with the word "But"... Now it's a well used literary tool. Luthier is an odd word to pronounce, and funnily enough, is almost IMPOSSIBLE to say while sounding cool.

And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?

"Beeth-oven, dude!"

Mark.

While it should be noted that I'm no expert on language matters, I remain fairly sure that starting sentences with the word 'But' should be completely and utterly banned. But what do I know?

Roo

you learn the rules first - then start breaking them!!

At school we tell the kids they are allowed to start a sentence with 'and' or 'but' after they have written a best seller :D

maverickf1jockey · « **Reply #40 on:** May 22, 2008, 04:23:20 PM »

I'd like to say the Beethoven is pronounced 'Bait-Ho-ven'. It has something to do with feet, I think. Maybe I'm talking a load of old cobblers there.

dave_mc · « **Reply #41 on:** May 22, 2008, 05:51:43 PM »

Quote from: Roobubba

Pronunciation and grammar are two very different things, and you have lumped them together with dialects, too!
Dialects are not to be diminished or side-lined from the English language, they make up a rich and diverse pool of new and old words which keep our language evolving!. That's not an excuse for instances where general ignorance results in atrocious grammar, but the two should be separated!

Also, a clear disctinction should be made between the written and spoken word. For example, in Hull (or as it's pronounced correctly, 'Ull), it would perfectly acceptable to say that: there's ner sner on edden rerd (there's no snow on Hedon Road). It would be incorrect for it to be written any differently from one dialect region to another, though!

agreed. :)

my grammar is pretty good, but obviously coming from northern ireland i don't exactlyhave an rp accent... someone with the "correct" rp accent could conceivably use worse grammar than i do.

Quote from: Elliot

I might add that there are plenty of French words that have been recently grafted into English like luthier that are pronounced in the French way such as parfumeur, sommelier, maitre d', aide-mémoire, attaché, restaurateur, etc.

The difficulty with the descriptive approach to language as advocated here (the 'if people speak that way, then it adds to the rich development of language over time and is thus correct') is that it has to concede to a relativist view of linguistic standards which ultimately ends up in the babel that Philly Q describes.

also agreed.

Quote from: MrBump

And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?

"Beeth-oven, dude!"

Mark.

yeah, i think he was hanging out with so-crates...

:lol:

indysmith · « **Reply #42 on:** May 22, 2008, 07:46:35 PM »

Language must evolve to survive,

say stuff how you wanna say it. Doesn't matter.

WezV · « **Reply #43 on:** May 22, 2008, 07:59:22 PM »

Quote from: dave_mc

Quote from: MrBump
And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?

"Beeth-oven, dude!"

Mark.

yeah, i think he was hanging out with so-crates...

:lol:

not to mention Mr The Kid

ilÿti · « **Reply #44 on:** May 22, 2008, 08:08:56 PM »

Quote from: MrBump

And just to correct a previous poster - Beethoven DOESN'T have a hard "t". Have you never watched Bill & Ted?

"Beeth-oven, dude!"

*ignores rest of thread*

I need to see that again.