Tube amps at home

[Doadman]

There's a lot of common sense here but it is also clear that good valve tones at lower volumes has to come at a price and for some people that is a serious consideration. I'd love to have a Powerball or Triple Rectifier but as I'm not in any sort of band right now my wife would castrate me if I spent that kind of money on an amp for the home. I bought a Digitech GNX3000 because I picked it up for only £169 new and for that kind of money it is excellent value and I don't regret it. I have looked at valve amps in the past but I was largely unimpressed with a Valveking and when I looked at cheaper Laney amps like the VC and LC range, even Laney told me that they wouldn't work so well at bedroom levels!

I'm looking at buying a new amp right now and for a modeller I've been thinking of spending £300 - £350 on a powered PA speaker as they work really well with modellers. So, what valve amp would fall into that price bracket, produce good tone at bedroom levels but also be good enough for small gigs? This is, of course, rather assumptive as I accept that to get a good valve amp I may need to spend a lot more than that but then that's why modellers sell so well I guess. If there is a good valve amp out there in that price bracket I will certainly look at it and I'd love you to tell me but if there isn't, I'll simply stick to the modeller and not lose any sleep over it.

[hamfist]

Cheers Hamfist. It hasn't really helped my gas though!! If you rated it as better than the Lionheart, which I also have, I really do want to hear one now!! Where did you get it from?

From M&M Music, Southampton.  They still stock Zinkys, as well as Bogner, and Engl etc. - it's a great store IMO with some really different stuff.

[hamfist]

There's a lot of common sense here but it is also clear that good valve tones at lower volumes has to come at a price and for some people that is a serious consideration. I'd love to have a Powerball or Triple Rectifier but as I'm not in any sort of band right now my wife would castrate me if I spent that kind of money on an amp for the home. I bought a Digitech GNX3000 because I picked it up for only £169 new and for that kind of money it is excellent value and I don't regret it. I have looked at valve amps in the past but I was largely unimpressed with a Valveking and when I looked at cheaper Laney amps like the VC and LC range, even Laney told me that they wouldn't work so well at bedroom levels!

I'm looking at buying a new amp right now and for a modeller I've been thinking of spending £300 - £350 on a powered PA speaker as they work really well with modellers. So, what valve amp would fall into that price bracket, produce good tone at bedroom levels but also be good enough for small gigs? This is, of course, rather assumptive as I accept that to get a good valve amp I may need to spend a lot more than that but then that's why modellers sell so well I guess. If there is a good valve amp out there in that price bracket I will certainly look at it and I'd love you to tell me but if there isn't, I'll simply stick to the modeller and not lose any sleep over it.

  The two amps that come to mind are the Tiny Terror (about £400 with a 1x12 cab if you shop around), and the Peavey Classic 30 (£375). Both of which are pretty universally available. Not the best amps in the world, but still very acceptable. the Peavey is slightly more versatile, having both a clean channel and 30 Watts.
  You'll probably find a few folks suggesting certain Laneys, which although sounding good, do not have the best reliability record.

   As you stated in your post though, one usually needs to spend more money to get tube amps sounding good at really low volumes. Even a TT or a Classic 30 will sound better at TV volumes if you can use an attenuator, but then that's extra cash.

[Doadman]

As with most guitarists I do have a hankering for a tube amp as I recognise that they do sound better than a modeller but this is always a battle between head and heart. When I think of it in the cold light of day it's difficult to justify spending large amounts of cash on a valve amp, partly because there are other things that need my money such as wife and kids but also because it's difficult to justify that kind of investment just to play in the home. I've not totally given up on playing in a band but realistically, at 43 years old it will probably never happen now. I never believe I'm all that good though perhaps that may be down to confidence. I dare say there are some cr@p guitarists doing well in bands simply because they have the bottle to give it a go. I figure I need an amp to try playing with other musicians but until I'm in a band it simply isn't worth investing serious cash on a valve amp - chicken and egg!

I'll give those amps a try when I demo the active PA speakers and see how they respond. In the past I was on the verge of buying a Laney LC30 until an email from Laney told me it wasn't going to do well at bedroom levels. I also looked at the new Spider Valve amps but while they were impressive I couldn't help thinking that my Digitech was inherently better than Line 6. Strictly speaking, the Spider Valve isn't a proper valve amp in the traditional sense as the preamp stage is digital but I suppose it remains an option. Any thoughts? The other solution I tried was running my GNX through a tube unit like a Presonus TubePre but that made surprisingly little difference.

Decisions, decisions, decisions  :?

[sgmypod]

yeah not sure spider valves are all that good, but are some good small valve amps out there, or on ebay there's a ax84 build your own amp that needs finishing going for £50 they are a great little amp and one of the easier ones to build

[Doadman]

I've been giving a little more thought to this Spider Valve issue. The powered speakers seem to work well with modellers yet it's difficult to get past that hankering for a 'proper' guitar amp and real tube tone. I can't explain why; it sounds crazy. I guess part of it is that I figure that if I change my mind at least I can sell a guitar amp.

Anyway, one possibility is to sell the GNX and buy a Spider Valve (assuming it sounds good) but this route has a few limitations. Firstly, the SV doesn't appear to have a headphone socket and I'd like to keep that option to keep my wife sane. Secondly, I like the range of options that are on the GNX as the SV is a bit more limited and if the SV uses Pod XTL type effects and models then I'm inclined to think my GNX is better.

This gives me a few different options and questions with the SV and I'd really appreciate it if anyone has an opinion, advice and experience.

1) I could simply use the GNX when I need headphones and the SV at all other times

2) Could I simply plug the GNX into the SV power amp and get the best of both worlds? In this scenario I'd be using the SV like an Atomic amp but would the SV colour the sound more?

3) Is it possible to connect to the SV normally and then run a line out of the preamp to the GNX, use the GNX purely for effects and then run the GNX back into the power amp stage? Actually, I'm not even sure if the GNX will work purely as an effects unit!

4) Is it possible (I'm not technically minded) to split the signal from my guitar so that I could use a footswitch to move between the SV and my GNX through the power amp?

5) Is the SV that elusive beast; a tube amp that will work well at bedroom levels as well as screaming? I've shied away from tube amps previously for that reason but I believe this, like an Atomic, is more flexible.

Sorry if some of these points sound daft but I'd really like to know. The PA speakers I'm looking at would be about £300 - £350 so a SV wouldn't require that much more saving and would be worth it if it gave me that elusive tone we're all after at a reasonable price and reasonable volumes. Overall I love my GNX but like all modellers it misses that real tube warmth and I'm assuming the SV helps to provide that. Of course, another option is to go with an Atomic amp but I can't try that in advance and why should I if the SV can do the same thing at less cost?

[hamfist]

I've played a SV 1x12 combo in a shop, and was actually quite impressed by it.  It does benefit from running loud (or running it with an attenuator), but is still pretty good even at lowish levels. However, I have read a LOT of reports of some of these amps coming out of the factory with wildly unmatched power valves, which will not necessarily be dangerous for the amp, but will sound cr@p. Doadman, as I assume you do not have facilities for putting in new power tubes, and biasing them, I would try and play the actual amp you might buy. You could then know for sure whether it was a "good 'un".  if you buy online you could end up with one with very unmatched tubes.
  I'll try and answer some of your questions :-

1/ great idea
2/ yes you could just plug the GNX into the FX loop return jack on the SV. It might sound great, it might not. The SV pre-amp, power amp and cab are tuned to work nicely together. The GNX may, or may not, be a good fit.
3/ Yes, you can do this, as long as you are able to switch off the amp modelling and speaker/cab sims on the GNX. I have run a Tonelab like this with good success in the past.
4/ Possibly. this would be called the 4 cable method, and would be dependant on your GNX having it's own effects loop, which could be switched in and out of the signal path.
  It basically would involve putting the SV's pre-amp into a switchable loop in the GNX. So it's a "maybe". You would need to investigate. You'll find more info at www.thestompbox.net if want to research it.
5/ It all depends quite how quiet you want to go. There are always tonal compromises to be had as you reduce the volume with a tube amp. The only way to find out really is to try it.
  For the volumes I play at, at home, I could be happy with the SV. But you may want to play quiter than that.

[noodleplugerine]

I've been giving a little more thought to this Spider Valve issue. The powered speakers seem to work well with modellers yet it's difficult to get past that hankering for a 'proper' guitar amp and real tube tone. I can't explain why; it sounds crazy. I guess part of it is that I figure that if I change my mind at least I can sell a guitar amp.

Anyway, one possibility is to sell the GNX and buy a Spider Valve (assuming it sounds good) but this route has a few limitations. Firstly, the SV doesn't appear to have a headphone socket and I'd like to keep that option to keep my wife sane. Secondly, I like the range of options that are on the GNX as the SV is a bit more limited and if the SV uses Pod XTL type effects and models then I'm inclined to think my GNX is better.

This gives me a few different options and questions with the SV and I'd really appreciate it if anyone has an opinion, advice and experience.

1) I could simply use the GNX when I need headphones and the SV at all other times

2) Could I simply plug the GNX into the SV power amp and get the best of both worlds? In this scenario I'd be using the SV like an Atomic amp but would the SV colour the sound more?

3) Is it possible to connect to the SV normally and then run a line out of the preamp to the GNX, use the GNX purely for effects and then run the GNX back into the power amp stage? Actually, I'm not even sure if the GNX will work purely as an effects unit!

4) Is it possible (I'm not technically minded) to split the signal from my guitar so that I could use a footswitch to move between the SV and my GNX through the power amp?

5) Is the SV that elusive beast; a tube amp that will work well at bedroom levels as well as screaming? I've shied away from tube amps previously for that reason but I believe this, like an Atomic, is more flexible.

Sorry if some of these points sound daft but I'd really like to know. The PA speakers I'm looking at would be about £300 - £350 so a SV wouldn't require that much more saving and would be worth it if it gave me that elusive tone we're all after at a reasonable price and reasonable volumes. Overall I love my GNX but like all modellers it misses that real tube warmth and I'm assuming the SV helps to provide that. Of course, another option is to go with an Atomic amp but I can't try that in advance and why should I if the SV can do the same thing at less cost?

I'm pretty sure ALL of the above is possible. This all being said, the spider valve is coming under flak, apparently its not all that good (not played it myself)... Most of the above can be done by any tube amp.

But I don't feel its worth paying the premium for a whole amp if you only plan on using the poweramp. Why not just buy a tube poweramp?

[HairyChris]

I'd love a low wattage valve amp for home, however:

1) I don't home record. Well, not with mics and stuff, just direct.
2) I can get approximately usable noise using Boss multifx or recorder into phones or ss practise amp.
3) I'd better justify putting the cash towards a 50w head that'll do tones that my current head won't.

Does this make me a bad person?

[AndyR]

Does this make me a bad person?

+1 !

I've kept quiet, cos, although I'm a valve-amp kinda guy, I'm also a Line6 lover  :oops:

I love my PODXTL - it does what I want through a desk and studio monitors in the living room and, just like a valve amp, it sounds a hell of a lot better turned up louder than a loud TV! (Incidentally, I don't like it through headphones, sounds very clinical, but through speakers or in a mix it's great, I can even get it to feedback like a valve amp if I'm feeling really brave about neighbour disturbance...)

I haven't played my valve amp (a "pre-AOR" Laney 50W MV Combo, bought it new in '82 or '83) since I last played live, over ten years ago.

Now the POD doesn't sound as good as that amp does/did when it was blazing away in a gig/rehearsal, but I have to say, after a couple of years twiddling patches, I can get far better sounds out of the POD at low levels than I could out of this or any other valve amp I've ever owned/borrowed.

This thread has had me thinking "ooo - nice little expensive valve amp... ooo, ooo!" but really, I've got no space for it, it wouldn't greatly improve the tones I'm getting, and it wouldn't be as versatile (and it would cost more than the pod, desk, studio monitors and stands combined did!).

If I do ever want to gig again - the Laney gets dusted off and serviced, and I'm away (I don't think I'd trust the POD for reliability in a gig!)

I have a tube amp at home - I just don't use it cos I think my POD's better in the living room...

There - I've said it!! Whew...

So, er, "Does this make me a bad person?"  

[hamfist]

Yup, lots of "bad" people around here !!

Seriously, whatever works for you is great. Whether it be modeller, tubes or whatever.
  My whole point of the thread really was to remind people that tube amps can sound great at home, but it might just cost a bit more than a SS rig.

[sgmypod]

and as always tone is subjective

[Doadman]

For me, at the moment I'm just using the GNX into headphones and the sound is fine 99% of the time but I'm looking at a new amp for 2 basic reasons.

1) If I play through headphones for anything over an hour I start to get a bit of a headache as the sound is so concentrated.
2) I'd kinda like to start playing with other musicians and while there's nothing immediately on the horizon right now, if I don't have an amp ready to use thenm I know I'll not seriously look for that opportunity. It's a way of getting me to move my lazy butt I suppose!

I've already said why I'm a little concerned about using an active PA speaker even though I know the sound will be good, which is why I keep returning to a valve amp. I accept what is being said about just using any valve amp to use the GNX with but the Spider Valve still appeals. I think that this is because if I use the Digitech purely for effects then the Spider Valve becomes more of a 12 channel amp rather than a modelling amp in my mind. Furthermore, if I can use some kind of A/B switch to move between the SV amp models with the GNX as effects and the GNX doing everything then I have a phenomenally versatile amp and one that has a back up system built into it. If the GNX fails I simply use the SV systems and if the SV fails, I can simply plug the GNX into the PA system. I'm still not sure if this is entirely possible but in theory it sounds very attractive indeed.

No doubt someone will noe politely point out I'm being idiotic  :roll:  :?

[hamfist]

I think that this is because if I use the Digitech purely for effects then the Spider Valve becomes more of a 12 channel amp rather than a modelling amp in my mind. Furthermore, if I can use some kind of A/B switch to move between the SV amp models with the GNX as effects and the GNX doing everything then I have a phenomenally versatile amp and one that has a back up system built into it. If the GNX fails I simply use the SV systems and if the SV fails, I can simply plug the GNX into the PA system. I'm still not sure if this is entirely possible but in theory it sounds very attractive indeed.

It is all quite "do-able", as I said in an earlier post - you must have a switchable on/off FX loop actually on the GNX itself for it to work.
  Also, using this method often can create hum by ground loops being created, so it certainly isn't foolproof.
 I suspect once you try the SV pre-amp tones, using your GNX for FX, then you'd probably be happy using just the SV pre-amp tones. You do really need to try one !