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Author Topic: Hilarity Ensues  (Read 13398 times)

38thBeatle

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2008, 08:48:31 PM »
I am at a loss to see why anyone would take gleeful delight in the current crisis but there you go, each to his own. I am not over excited about losing a few quid off the value of my house but I was not thinking of selling and so it won't have too much affect. Obviously good for buyers except for the fact that mortgages are going to get harder to get. In the end, life will go on. I feel for those losing their jobs- having been in that situation this year after spending 10 years of my life helping to build up a company, I can imagine the sheer misery of losing one's livelihood.     
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Will

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2008, 08:54:03 PM »
I think it sucks, my apprenticeship $%&#ed up, so will find it VERY hard to find another electrician to work with until the next academic year starts.
Farm work is a bit boring, and this years harvest is mighty shitee, so bread and many things coming from natural stuffs will also cost more money :(

dave_mc

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 05:27:28 PM »
i disagree, 38th. if the dudes who orchestrated the whole crisis went down, i'd be loving it. most others would too. also, i'm enjoying a bit of schadenfreude too because i was getting a bit sick of hearing, "oh, you'll have to get on the housing market soon or you'll never be able to afford a house"... it's definitely quite gratifying to see those who, in their own small way (and in the case of estate agents, a larger way), were buying into the hype and contributing to the ridiculous housing prices. also, it's quite fun to see those who were pushing up the prices of goods and services by "just putting it on the credit card" (and making those of us who were more disciplined suffer as we weren't willing to borrow) getting their comeuppance by now getting hit by crippling rates of interest.

So, yes, i agree that feeling great about the current situation is a little misguided from the point of view that those who deserve most to lose won't, but i can certainly understand why a lot of people would be pleased (if they didn't know that).  and certainly some people who deserve to will be taking at least a little hit. no more short selling, for a start. :twisted:

38thBeatle

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 06:34:16 PM »
Understood Dave but those who brought it about won't be going down. Plus, there are many who will have bought houses that are now devalued and will be in negative equity. This is not the first time it has happened and it won't be the last but nevertheless a lot of people will have their dreams shattered. I get to thinking that it will be the wrong people paying for this- as always seems to be the case.
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Philly Q

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 06:43:52 PM »
I get to thinking that it will be the wrong people paying for this- as always seems to be the case.

Ultimately, it'll be taxpayers, as always.  And who gets out of paying tax?  People on benefits and people rich enough to stick loads of money in offshore tax avoidance schemes.
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ToneMonkey

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2008, 10:10:52 AM »
My place is laying off 10% of it's work force and personally there are rumours that there will be more after.  As one of the last in the door, then I could really be in the shitee.  Still it might be just the catylist that I need to move to Cornwall.

Been looking at buying a house as we have been patiently waiting over the last few years.  I have a couple of friends who have bought houses over the last couple of years, and where I told them my views and advised against it, they were always going to do what they thought best.  Some of them are stuck in negative equity and some of them have it far worse (one looks like his house is going to be repo'd).  I have heard the arguemnt that the negative equity isn't going to affect them as they aren't going to move.  Although this is sort of right, they are still stuck with higher mortgage payments.

As for city bankers, I can almost guarentee that the vast majority will be OK.  Like it has been said before, it is us mear minnions who will suffer.
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Sailor Charon

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2008, 10:55:33 AM »
I get to thinking that it will be the wrong people paying for this- as always seems to be the case.

Ultimately, it'll be taxpayers, as always.  And who gets out of paying tax?  People on benefits and people rich enough to stick loads of money in offshore tax avoidance schemes.

There's going to be quite a few more people on benefit as a result of all this... :( And they have my deepest sympathy.

ToneMonkey

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2008, 11:14:27 AM »
It's kind of like the windfall tax that they want to put on energy companies fo their profits.  Sadly with all shareholder owned companies, if they tax the profits then this shortfall has to be made up somewhere (otherwise the shareholders will leave and everyone will be out of a job), so people will either lose their jobs (which is happening at the minute) or bills will go up again to cover it.  Not saying that it's right, it's just how the system works.  Capitalism at it's finest  :(
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Elliot

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2008, 11:25:55 AM »
Quite frankly free market capitalism is not dying but correcting itself from a distortion caused by 10+ years of 'ordinary people' acting imprudently and the banking industry supplying that imprudence - i.e. the millions of pounds worth of debt that has been shifting on paper to far corners of the universe till it won't shift no more.  The market works on liquidity - and once that dries up the market contracts.  Its the eternal cycle of boom and bust.

All do well in a boom, but many fat cats do very well in a bust - for example I trained as an insolvency lawyer, but the boom made it hard to make a good living, so I changed my practice - now its happy times again for those that stuck to their guns in that field.
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Kilby

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2008, 11:55:52 AM »
As most people have already said it's normal people who will suffer not the people behind the irresponsible lending policys that will suffer.

However a lot of people also bear responsibility for their own actions, I have a mortgage @ 4 times my salary and it's a killer. So I really fail to understand how people could borrow 7 times (and I have heard 10 times) their salary and expect to keep ther payments going ?

I also don't understand why people are surprised that the good times would eventually come to an end. Share & house prices cannot keep on rising, some sort of 'correction' had to take place eventually

Having spent near 4 years living in London, while my wife & kids stayed in Belfast (had to work away from home to keep a roof over my familys heads) I definately know what it's like to have too many expenses, as it wasn't unusual to survive on less than £70 per month for food & travel.

So I have been there and I feel bad for those will be suffering and be in a worse situation than I was.

Unfortunitely those who where truely responsible (both for irresponsible lending and encouraging folks to borrow too much) will probably be sitting in their new employers offices and wondering how much their bonuses will be in about 3 months time :(
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AndyR

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2008, 12:12:58 PM »
I'm afraid I'm with Elliot on this one (and I seem to have roughly the same taste in pickups :lol:)

I got stung in the last recession in the early 90s (4 years unemployment, divorce, negative equity, etc, etc...) - what goes round comes round.

You're going to get much higher interest rates folks - I was on a fixed 12.5% (which saved us temporarily when it went up to 17.5%, what actually killed us was that we were stuck in one bedroom flat that we couldn't sell, with twins - we drove each other up the wall and what ever bliss should have been turned into a hate-filled nightmare).

Property prices are coming down a lot further as well - because people are going to have to sell for whatever reason, but people like me are not prepared to pay what they've been telling themselves their homes are worth for the last x years. I've been on that end of it - it took me five years to pay off my share of the losses when we finally managed to sell.

Now, what with CSA payments, there's no way me and my new(er) wife (who actually saved my life) have been able to "get back on the ladder". However, as we have no debts, with the way things are going now, our opportunity to put some sort of stability into our housing/future is now looming - I've been telling friends for 5 years that it's on it's way, and here it is coming right at us.

I don't rejoice in other's misfortunes, but I sure as hell rejoice in mine, having funded the other b@stards last time.

I also want to say something about this talk of "fat cats". I'm afraid that I feel that dismissing "them" like that is the "politics of envy", sorry folks.

The price we pay for "freedom" is that some people are going to be far more successful than others.
Some through luck (= they were prepared to take risks that I'm not and it paid off),
some because they were born with the funds (= their ancestors did some hard work),
some because they're snidy-sh1ts who take the credit for what their colleagues do (that happens in all walks of life),
and so on , and so on...
- but ALL had to put some sort of effort in, they don't belittle what I do without knowing what it is I do, so I'm not going to do the same to them.

These "fat cats" don't owe me anything - good luck to them - they're doing the same thing I am, trying to make an honest buck according to whatever the rules of the game are at the time.

If we gave up this freedom - would I be any better off? There'd be a different sort of "fat cat" then (some, but not all, would be the same people) they would have the right to screw me over and take an even bigger slice of the pie - and have me "disappeared" if I objected.

I was determined not to post in this thread... I'm no capitalist, I'm no socialist, I'm not a political animal at all really...

... but here I am, sorry folks :lol:
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 01:25:42 PM by AndyR »
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Sailor Charon

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2008, 01:46:55 PM »
Can I just say, as part of the last bastion of the skilled working class (computer programmers, engineering and technical people) that what I do has been disparaged and belittled since the year dot, both by people who do know what's involved, and those who don't. Regarded as easily replaceable by management, treated as commodities, and regarded about as well as the red shirted guys from Star Trek...

And I object to the term 'Politics of envy' too.
[The only person I envy is Jeremy Clarkson - not because he gets to drive (whatever) but because he gets paid for doing something that he enjoys so much. I don't know of anybody else who's that lucky.]
I couldn't care less what you have, as long as it's not so little that you're struggling. I certainly don't want to take anything away from anyone, and I agree, nobody owes me anything. And vice versa.
However.
In the real world, when people at the bottom mess up, they suffer the consequences - whether it's a pay cut, demotion, redundancy.
If they're higher up, people lower down suffer too.
If they're right at the top, they get off scot free, and possibly get rewarded, while those below them suffer.
You can call criticising that the 'politics of envy' if you like... I call it caring about justice.

ToneMonkey

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2008, 02:04:37 PM »
Can I just say, as part of the last bastion of the skilled working class (computer programmers, engineering and technical people) that what I do has been disparaged and belittled since the year dot, both by people who do know what's involved, and those who don't. Regarded as easily replaceable by management, treated as commodities, and regarded about as well as the red shirted guys from Star Trek...


Serious point....... but the Star Trak comment made me larf, nearly spilt tea on my shirt.
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AndyR

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2008, 03:37:27 PM »
Sorry - I knew "politics of envy" was a lazy cliché I ought to have avoided. It's a highly charged one, and I didn't intend to invoke the politics of those who usually use it... but I was in a rush, so, er :oops:.

What's been worrying me in some of the posts I see (not just here, but in the press, etc) is people dismissing, not just criticising, but dismissing all of "them" as baddies somehow responsible for everything that's gone wrong. I don't think they are the baddies, any more than the rest of us are. They're just more high profile and they're the sort of people that the media can point out so that we all know who we're meant to blame...

"Consequences" do go up as well as down. I'm at the bottom, a quite well paid bottom (I'm in IT as well, one of the red-shirted ones :lol:) but no-one works below me. I am a resource/commodity to my management, I accept that, that's the way it works - but I'm a bluddy useful resource and I make sure they know it. Now, if I mess up, here at the bottom, it does have consequences to those above me – up to and including loss of salary, demotion, redundancy. They could suffer these consequences because one of the people whose actions they're responsible for has messed up. Those consequences can go all the way to the top, same as the mess ups at the top can have consequences all the way down. Both the top and the bottom have the power to screw the whole operation up.

However, if I (or anyone else) mess up enough so that I get made redundant, I expect two things for myself:
a) I expect to get paid (assuming the funds are still available) for all my efforts up until now, and to cover my notice period, according to the terms of my contract.
b) I expect to be able to find another job eventually, with remuneration commensurate with the sector I work in, my skills, experience, and how many other idiots like me are looking at the same time, etc.

I don't see how I can possibly require that lower expectations than this are imposed on someone higher up than me. The only problem is that the terms of their contracts are somewhat different than mine, so their severance pay seems extortionately large to me. And they have somewhat different skillsets than I do, one of which is being able to take that kind of pressure and risk. So other companies are prepared to take them on doing the same sort of job, fully aware that "mistakes get made". When it comes down to it, track-record-wise, these guys are successful at what they do, otherwise they wouldn't be kept on, or be able to sign another extortionate contract with a competitor.

That's the way it works - when it comes down to it, it is a roughly level playing field we're all on, unfortunately some people can "run faster" than I can, and some people can't. We can learn to go a bit faster by putting some effort in, etc, but at the moment we're all born with the legs that we're born with.

I decided years ago that I really don't want the system changed so that I'm no longer allowed to run faster than the blokes down the road if I put a bit more effort in. But that means I have to accept the fact that there are far many more blokes up the road who are allowed to run faster than I can ever hope to.

I used to get wound up by this stuff. But one day I realised that me having a hard time about those blokes running faster than me was pretty much down to envy, and that's why I resorted to the cliché earlier.

I've probably managed to say something else now :roll:. Apologies if I have - I really don't want to wind anyone up here. I'm not wound up about it at all, but I obviously feel strongly enough to want to try and get something across. I just wish I could encapsulate it in a "soundbite" that everyone understands, it would have saved me writing all the drivel above!
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dave_mc

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Re: Hilarity Ensues
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2008, 04:04:00 PM »
^ what about the dudes who get in at the top because daddy owns the company?

Understood Dave but those who brought it about won't be going down. Plus, there are many who will have bought houses that are now devalued and will be in negative equity. This is not the first time it has happened and it won't be the last but nevertheless a lot of people will have their dreams shattered. I get to thinking that it will be the wrong people paying for this- as always seems to be the case.

oh yeah, of course. the thing was, a lot of people weren't happy with their dreams, and once they got one house, tried to buy 2, etc. etc. also, considering the ridiculous house prices, my dream (ok, not so much a dream, but i'd quite like one) of actually being able to buy a half-decent house was being shat upon, so i don't feel too bad now that i might actually have a chance. they didn't give a shitee about my dream, so i'm not going to feel too bad about theirs going down the cr@pper either.

plus, everyone should know (or at least should be told by the banks) that a variable interest rate means it can go up. the whole point is you shouldn't be mortgaged up to the hilt to the point that even a quarter point rise means you default on that month's payment. that's what caused this mess in the first place, and of course the banks' reckless lending policies; don't get me wrong, i blame the banks and financial sector much more than the ordinary person, but the ordinary person is not blameless either, a lot wanted to be seduced.

+1 on what elliot's saying too (and kilby, that's basically what i was saying).