Dean Z project

[38thBeatle]

I think if it were me I'd go for a refinish and keep the sig intact and visible but protected.I think I would retain some of the patina and character that it adds. Whatever you decide, have fun doing it.

[CJ]

wood vs epoxy?

so i want to start working on this guitar. myself. it isn't going to be left alone and its going to be refinished, though i appreciate and respect all of your opinions on leaving it. i'm no expert craftman, but i want to possibly fill in this kahler route myself if possible. i should be able to get my hands on a dremel, so how would it turn out if i just got the route level to the guitar body, and then filled it in with epoxy? it should be structurally sound, will it make a big impact on the acoustic tone? i'm not worried about looks, because i figure no matter what i'm probably going to have to cover this thing with a fake maple veneer or something.

[WezV]

i should be able to get my hands on a dremel,

puny little bar-stewards that are good for nothing but inlay and the occasional small routing job like say a 5-way switch slot

so how would it turn out if i just got the route level to the guitar body, and then filled it in with epoxy?

it would not turn out good... quite possibly playable, but not good!!

it should be structurally sound

epoxy can be wonderfull stuff - but i would not want to mount a bridge to it

will it make a big impact on the acoustic tone?

my guess is it will make it almost dead acoustically - there is no substitute for filling the hole properly

because i figure no matter what i'm probably going to have to cover this thing with a fake maple veneer or something.

then you will destroy every thing that makes this guitar potentially special

the answer may not be clear or look like its going to be cheap... but dont rush into it!

having a visable wood plug may be the way forward after all

[CJ]

ok, so don't use epoxy. don't use a dremel. what kind of tool(s) would i need for this job? or should i definitely not attempt this? and are you suggesting that i actually let the repair show through the finish?

[FernandoDuarte]

ok, so don't use epoxy. don't use a dremel. what kind of tool(s) would i need for this job? or should i definitely not attempt this? and are you suggesting that i actually let the repair show through the finish?

A router would be the best...

If you're going to leave it this way, why not show a repair, made of mahogany???

[WezV]

its not what i would do normally but if the repair is done well then thats going to be better than covering the whole front with a veneer which will take away the reason you brought it... there is the options of a partial veneer but thats no easier

i didnt mean to come over as harsh but it sounded like you might be rushing into it and it needs skill and carefull thought to get right.,, worth taking time and even butchering a few cheap guitars to learn the skills involved first if you plan on doing it yourself

i will do another post later with my plan of attack to a) get it looking smart and b) keep the signiture - i just need to think a little more first.

shame your not in the uk - i would quite fancy a go at this

[CJ]

its not what i would do normally but if the repair is done well then thats going to be better than covering the whole front with a veneer which will take away the reason you brought it... there is the options of a partial veneer but thats no easier

i didnt mean to come over as harsh but it sounded like you might be rushing into it and it needs skill and carefull thought to get right.,, worth taking time and even butchering a few cheap guitars to learn the skills involved first if you plan on doing it yourself

i will do another post later with my plan of attack to a) get it looking smart and b) keep the signiture - i just need to think a little more first.

shame your not in the uk - i would quite fancy a go at this

i could always send it... i get a great shipping discount where i work.
but it doesn't really matter because with how expensive things would be, i really can't afford to have everything done at once.

and maybe i don't quite understand what a veneer is. i thought it was basically just a high quality fake print. i thought i could then just cut it out where the signature would be and airbrush around it to make it look good.

[FernandoDuarte]

veneer is a 0.6mm to 1mm thick real wood...

[WezV]

ok, considering what you want here is what i would do

1.  first that block for the bridge needs levelling off.  I have a router thicknessing jig i made which would take it down to the wood quite neatly.  (the general idea of a thicknesser jig - http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/tips_15.html)

2.  Time to carefully strip the guitar of the black and red bits leaving the signiture area well alone. this would be done with carefull scr@ping and sanding.

3.  I would want to plug that bridge hole and i would want it to fit perfectly so i would have a male and female template made on a laser cutter to a size slightly bigger than the current route.  I would use the female template on the body to route out for the plug, then when i had hit a depth that was all wood i would use the male template to cut the plug from a new bit of mahogany.

i would leave the plug slightly proud so i could use the router thicknesser to get it to its final level

4.  a choice at this stage, it could just be drilled for a new tune-o-matic bridge with a visable but neat plug or a partial re veneer could be done

5. if going for the partial veneer i would find some nice plain mahogany veneer.  I would then draw a line on the body below the signiture and parallel to the centre line. i would then get the router thicknesser out again and reduce the thickness on most of the body by the thickness of the veneer - glue the veneer in place.  it will cover the repair and effectively make the body look like a two-piece with off centre join from the front.  obviously the veneer will be visable around the edge but you would have to look close to see it.

6.  finishing will be an issue, obviously now you have the old section of mahogany with the signiture and a newer cleaner section of mahogany covering the rest of the body, you also have the problem that anything done to the guitar before may make lacquering awkward - easy to solve when you can strip the guitar properly but difficult when you have a section you cant touch.  i would go with a slight tinit on the clean section followed by a bit of oil everywhere else - leaving it quite raw but with some protection

7.  Obviously it needs  a refret and some work on neck too, i would reveneer the front of the headstock and get a new dean decal made

(and none of those jobs are particularly easy!!)

[CJ]

what did i get myself into...  :( :?

i guess i can assume each of those jobs are all going to be very expensive, won't they? sounds like the only thing i can (should) do myself is sand off all the old paint?

[FernandoDuarte]

what did i get myself into...  :( :?

i guess i can assume each of those jobs are all going to be very expensive, won't they? sounds like the only thing i can (should) do myself is sand off all the old paint?

My first thought when I saw this and saw the pics was "is he understanding all the work it'll have?", but I didn't want to be rude, so said nothing about :)

[CJ]

what did i get myself into...  :( :?

i guess i can assume each of those jobs are all going to be very expensive, won't they? sounds like the only thing i can (should) do myself is sand off all the old paint?

My first thought when I saw this and saw the pics was "is he understanding all the work it'll have?", but I didn't want to be rude, so said nothing about :)

haha, thanks. way to let me ease into the shock and disappointment.

but its really ok. i'm just really happy to have this thing. its just sitting next to my bed for now. its also good because it'll keep me from wanting to buy a new guitar every couple months. and it might be a lot but i think it should be awesome when its done.

Wez, since i'm going to need all of this body work done, would it add a great deal of time/money to the project if i wanted to add some body binding to match the neck? and do you think the neck binding will need replaced or can that just be re-dyed or painted or something to bring it out to a nice color again?
and what do you recommend i use to sand all of this paint off? i figure i can at least get started on that for now...

[FernandoDuarte]

About binding, you must to see how much they rounded on the edge of the body... Fender round 1/4", if I'm not wrong, some guitar has smaller others bigger...

A LP Custom binding is about .220", the LP Standard is .080" or .090", the traditional is .060"... So, if it's a small rounded edge, perhaps you can, if it's a big, you can have big trouble doing it...

I'm not sure about the binding of your neck, never worked with refretting or whatever in already binded necks...
And sanding the color out can be made with sand paper/abrasives for wood, think #60 or #80 to take the finish, but Wez knows way more than me and can make better comments

[CJ]

thanks for that fernando

i know a lot of this is all just generalizations, and i won't know exactly whats going on until i take it to a luthier, but this all helps a lot in seeing what i should be doing.

and as far as sandpaper, i just need to make sure i'm not using something too heavy and messing up the wood- never worked with mahogany before.

[FernandoDuarte]

If I remember right I used #80/60 to to rough job, #100/120 to start taking the mess out, #160/180 and then go getting finner... The finish papers starts around #300... Some guys go until 400/600, some go until 1500, some go until A4 printer paper (about 15000 if I'm not wrong) :lol: then finish the wood