Baritone opinions?

[MDV]

Bob 'Legra' Johnson and I are hammering out a new build, and I'm toying with the idea of baritone. I say toying. Very seriously considering.

I currently (mainly) play in C# and drop B (mostly drop B) on 25.5 inch with 12 - 62.

My question is, how much difference does it really make, to both tone and playbility? What do you think the most important factors in tightness are? (woods, pickups, amp, scale, player - ? Anything else? What do you think the weighting of these things is?)

I'm gonna see if I can try some out, obviously, (or worst case scenario buy a cheap one or, more likely, get a replacement neck for one of my stratalikes (great idea bob!)) but please give your experiences with them! The more and the more varied the better.

[Roobubba]

Hi MDV,

Good to hear you're thinking of a move to the dark side!

In my opinion the factors to dwell on are:

Scale length: what is the longest you can still play on? Can you tune down low enough (with appropriate string gauges) to retain sufficient tension and therefore clarity?

Fanned Frets: In order to achieve a playable string tension at your selected scale length on the bass side, you may struggle with strings for the treble side - very high tension/breaking/uncomfortable to play. Shortening the scale length for the treble strings is a great way to combat this, while still allowing you that beautiful piano-like clean and great articulation for the bass strings.

As you know, the way Wez built my fanned fret guitar was with the perpendicular point at the 7th fret. This means that for the vast majority of what you're playing, the fingers really don't notice the fanning of the frets. I can't stress enough how playable the guitar is. I literally forgot that the strings were fanned when I picked it up for the first time, because I was so struck with the quality and feel of the natural wood finish, and it wasn't until Wez pointed out that it didn't take me long to adjust that I twigged "Hang on a minute... oh yeah!".
Naturally, I was worried about it before, having not played a fanned fret guitar previously, but there was absolutely no basis for that worry, and I'd urge everyone to get their mitts on a multiscale guitar! The benefits for me are absolutely clear:

Previously, on my 25.5" Ibby in A-E-A-D-F#-B with 13-65 strings:
Flappy bass strings (in comparison), tension was not too bad, but could have been better.
Tuning issues: Not with the guitar (which held tune very well), but with the strings. Hit a string hard, and you'd get a considerably higher pitched note which would come down to the correct pitch over the course of 0.5-1 second or so. Bad!

Now, on my Voiferator with 14-70 (I think it's 70, might be 68...) in same tuning:
Proper tension on all strings, gives really nice feel to the instrument, and means that *all* strings hold the true note at all times, provides very clear, bell/piano-like cleans, and great articulation for the fast (especially low) stuff.

As for the most important factors in tightness:
Amp (flabby amp will never be tight!)
Player (gotta have the fingers!)
Scale length (assuming appropriate choice of string gauge)
Pickups (I'm assuming BKP here ;))
Woods

That's the order I would put them in. The choice of wood should really be governed by the tone you want to achieve, rather than the articulation. I went for Maple/Bubinga/Wenge neck-through with Bubinga wings and ebony fretboard to give a good amount of mid-range bite, plenty of attack, and a blistering bottom-end response. It definitely worked! And that's with a Black Dog in the bridge, which isn't the world's tightest pickup, but does allow the sound to be very open (again, dependent on amp channel, Channel 1/crunch of the 5150-II is quite open, the gain channel is really compressed).

Hope this helps,

Roo

[WezV]

i like the clarity a baritone can give, but that can make the high strings a little unbearable which is why i ended up going multiscale on roo's

for you i would aim for a 27 1/4" scale length if going for straight frets.  26" treble to 27 1/2" bass if going for a multiscale

Roo's sounds tight because of the 26.5"-28" scale lengths and the combo of bubinga, maple, wenge and ebony in the build.... no room for flab in that

[MDV]

Thanks for the replies fellas

I dont really get the faults you describe on my guitars, roo. I dont really have a 'fault' per se to correct here. I'm wondering if it would be better.

Your checklist of tightness:

Amp: Powerball. Check.
Player: Me. Obviously. I'm a fairly tight player. Check.
Scale length: ?
Pickups: Will be Painkillers. Check.
Woods: Will be meranti or mahogany, whichevers tighter, maple walnut 5pc through with ebony board, swamp ash wings. Check.

Balance across the strings is a bit of a concern, wez, but cant I just compensate with guage?

I'm interested in what you based the choice of 27.25 on: is there a calculation behind that?

[WezV]

Balance across the strings is a bit of a concern, wez, but cant I just compensate with guage?

I'm interested in what you based the choice of 27.25 on: is there a calculation behind that?

you can compensate with gauge to a certain degree but generally it means a compromise, i.e fatter strings than you want or tighter tension than is comfy. compensating with a change in scale lengths works better  IMHO   see if you can convince bob to try a multiscale ;)

the figure of 27.25 is from limited experience rather than calculations... my first baritone was 27.25 and it used the tuning and strings you describe and felt reasonably comfy.  i find 28"+ barry's that are not multiscale to be really uncomfy on the high srings

obviously when considering pickups for Roo's i spoke to tim a lot through emails and on the phone.  i asked him which would work best out of warpig, C-pig and painkiller and he said he wouldnt put any of them in a baritone as the effect would be kinda similar to putting a bass through a cheap distortion pedal.  Baritone strings simply do not need a poweful pickup to generate a large output

[ToneMonkey]

Tried to play one once and couldn't get on with the longer scale length.  I didn't find it very comfy at all.

Saying that though, I strung up my firebird and found the 25.5 inch scale length quite uncomfy, guess I'm just used to smaller ones now.

[MDV]

A compound scale is a bit outlandish for me (more power to you roo, but its not my thing)

So far I'm thinking that so much is involved more than just scale that Its no magic tightness bullet and I can still get surgical precision out of 25.5 (in my not-too-low tunings). Do you think this is a fair assesment? Is the difference a big one or are there more important things?

Does that logic on the pickups apply to heavy strings on any scale? Or is it the scale that makes a difference, as opposed to the mass of the string and the pitch?

Cheers for the input TM (I think we differ, though - I find 25.5 perfectly comfortable and 24.75 small *shrug* still doesnt rule out the possibilty that I'd not get on with a baritone: I have to try one to really know that though. Still, all reports of playabilty welcome!)

[WezV]

Does that logic on the pickups apply to heavy strings on any scale? Or is it the scale that makes a difference, as opposed to the mass of the string and the pitch?

i think its mostly a mass thing - the sheer amount of metal vibrating over the pickups generating more of a signal - but scale and pitch are all part of it because they affect how that mass of metal vibrates

[nfe]

So far I'm thinking that so much is involved more than just scale that Its no magic tightness bullet and I can still get surgical precision out of 25.5 (in my not-too-low tunings).

On this note - since I'm confident you'll know the song - The Burning Pits of the Duat is was recorded on 24.75 scale instuments. It's not exactly flabby and obviously it's in drop A.

I'd be interested to hear more ideas regarding big strings and high output pickups, given that I'm in C standard all the time on guitars with Ceramic warpigs and Nailbombs.

[Oli]

To echo what Wez said; 28"+ is horrible on the treble side- the frets are just too far apart (from when you've been playing 25.5 for years), and the tension is nasty, even with a set of 9s on there. On my 1st fanned fret, I did 25.35" to 27" (7 string), and in standard B tuning, it's just right with 9s and a 56 on the bottom, you may want to go up to a 58 and 10s, but i'd say no higher really, otherwise playing in C# (the king of tunings) won't feel that nice.

Viva la fanned frets!!!!

[MDV]

Cheers Wez, I may want to try a less powerfull pickup, see what happens

nfe, good point. I've been thinking of nile, I know they use 24.75 scale (Karl and dallas both actually like their dean MLs and Vs more than anything else they have, even KXKs). A host of other bands, too - I can barely think of any that use baritones, actuall. Machine head, but their best sounds were on gibsons and jacksons...meshuggah, but I'm not going completely insane with a 30"...anyone else? There have to be more, surely?

Who uses them? I can listen and look up the rest of the gear!

And thanks Oli. I was never really thinking of anything over 27 anyhow. 26.5 was the number in my head, actually, because its only another inch and I daresay I could get used to it really easily.

[Alex]

Cheers Wez, I may want to try a less powerfull pickup, see what happens

nfe, good point. I've been thinking of nile, I know they use 24.75 scale (Karl and dallas both actually like their dean MLs and Vs more than anything else they have, even KXKs). A host of other bands, too - I can barely think of any that use baritones, actuall. Machine head, but their best sounds were on gibsons and jacksons...meshuggah, but I'm not going completely insane with a 30"...anyone else? There have to be more, surely?

Who uses them? I can listen and look up the rest of the gear!

And thanks Oli. I was never really thinking of anything over 27 anyhow. 26.5 was the number in my head, actually, because its only another inch and I daresay I could get used to it really easily.

Karl uses a baritone for sure, it's kind of golden V-shaped and has a single Invader pickup. I think it's 27" scale. Also, Rob Flynn from Machine Head used an ESP V with 27" scale a lot, although it needed some repair on the last UK tour. They use baritones for recording a lot though, apparently.


I used to play my Ibanez RG in B standard but hated it, it felt very wrong somehow. The baritone I have (see the picture below) plays much nicer. It takes you a couple days to get to the feel, but I would say it really has improved my playing and technique.
On a sound comparison it has more punch than the RG ever had. Even a E or A chord rings out much more, which is natural considering the longer scale and that the string can vibrate over a greater length.
This baritone has two things I really like:
- the lower frets are really easily accessible (it's ESP's set-thru design which feels like neck-thru)
- It neither looks nor feels like an overly long guitar/giraffe neck; due to it only having 22 frets, the "cutaway" at the back guitar strap button and the long horn for the front guitar strap button it balances very nicely and is exactly the same length as my Ibanez RG was.

[MDV]

Cheers Wez, I may want to try a less powerfull pickup, see what happens

nfe, good point. I've been thinking of nile, I know they use 24.75 scale (Karl and dallas both actually like their dean MLs and Vs more than anything else they have, even KXKs). A host of other bands, too - I can barely think of any that use baritones, actuall. Machine head, but their best sounds were on gibsons and jacksons...meshuggah, but I'm not going completely insane with a 30"...anyone else? There have to be more, surely?

Who uses them? I can listen and look up the rest of the gear!

And thanks Oli. I was never really thinking of anything over 27 anyhow. 26.5 was the number in my head, actually, because its only another inch and I daresay I could get used to it really easily.

Karl uses a baritone for sure, it's kind of golden V-shaped and has a single Invader pickup. I think it's 27" scale. Also, Rob Flynn from Machine Head used an ESP V with 27" scale a lot, although it needed some repair on the last UK tour. They use baritones for recording a lot though, apparently.


I used to play my Ibanez RG in B standard but hated it, it felt very wrong somehow. The baritone I have (see the picture below) plays much nicer. It takes you a couple days to get to the feel, but I would say it really has improved my playing and technique.
On a sound comparison it has more punch than the RG ever had. Even a E or A chord rings out much more, which is natural considering the longer scale and that the string can vibrate over a greater length.
This baritone has two things I really like:
- the lower frets are really easily accessible (it's ESP's set-thru design which feels like neck-thru)
- It neither looks nor feels like an overly long guitar/giraffe neck; due to it only having 22 frets, the "cutaway" at the back guitar strap button and the long horn for the front guitar strap button it balances very nicely and is exactly the same length as my Ibanez RG was.

Yeah, those are karls KXKs. Two that I know of - a V and a double necked V with a fretless 11 string (single low a, the rest doubled as a 12). He says they sound the best for rhythms, but didnt go into great detail.

Thanks for your input (but I'm not getting your baritone ;), mine will be 24 fret and a heel-less through, RG shaped).

I assume thats 27"?

[nfe]

Cheers Wez, I may want to try a less powerfull pickup, see what happens

nfe, good point. I've been thinking of nile, I know they use 24.75 scale (Karl and dallas both actually like their dean MLs and Vs more than anything else they have, even KXKs). A host of other bands, too - I can barely think of any that use baritones, actuall. Machine head, but their best sounds were on gibsons and jacksons...meshuggah, but I'm not going completely insane with a 30"...anyone else? There have to be more, surely?

Who uses them? I can listen and look up the rest of the gear!

And thanks Oli. I was never really thinking of anything over 27 anyhow. 26.5 was the number in my head, actually, because its only another inch and I daresay I could get used to it really easily.

Karl uses a baritone for sure, it's kind of golden V-shaped and has a single Invader pickup. I think it's 27" scale.

Only on Ithyphalic and playing live anywhere outwith the US he still plays Deans (or at least when I saw them last he was and I've read him say in articles he doesn't take the KxKs overseas. Dallas is still Deans all the way I think.

[Alex]

Yeah, those are karls KXKs. Two that I know of - a V and a double necked V with a fretless 11 string (single low a, the rest doubled as a 12). He says they sound the best for rhythms, but didnt go into great detail.

Thanks for your input (but I'm not getting your baritone ;), mine will be 24 fret and a heel-less through, RG shaped).

I assume thats 27"?

Yes, it's 27". I've not tried any other baritone scale, but this one still feels somewhat normal.

What's a heel-less guitar?