Ok, so what's the most output pup that's also the darkest???

[studiojig]

I'm specifically looking for very smooth, dark, rounded tones in the G/B/E string region. I don't mean muffled sounded or anything, just rounded off and not harsh & trebley like so very many pickups. I need high output, organic PAF-ish tones with tight bass, focus on low mids, but with a good deal of clarity AND will clean up well when you roll back the volume now. I'm assuming this is an unobtainable, holy grail type tone, but surely there's a BKP that can do it.

Now, this will be going into the bridge of a Jackon Dominion (see here - http://www.jacksonguitars.com/products/products.php?group=AS-Series&page=1&product=2910505316) and running through a Mesa Mark IV as well as a Peters Gryphon (see here - http://www.petersamplification.com). I simultaneously love and hate the M4 because its gain structure is based on increasing amounts of treble. Too much of that and I'm out the door. I guess I have a particular hearing issue or strange tonal palette or something as this drives me mad. So, while I lust after a warpig A5, I wonder if this is the right thing for me for this guitar?? I've asked Tim and he recommends the Rebel Yell but that - according to what I've read about it - seems antithetical to what I'm seeking????

Additionally, I'm thinking - again, based on what I've read - about a set of Crawlers for my 88' Les Paul for a bit lower output but more versatility. So, what say you all?

Oh, and thanks so much in advance for your input!

[maverickf1jockey]

I'm not going out to contradict Tim's recommendation but the Warpig does seem to fit your description as to what you want from the pickup.

However, you didn't mention what sort of high-gain sound you were after (A5 Warpigs tending towards a very modern metal sound) so you might actually do better with the RYs if you were going for a thrash or (at a push) tech metal feel.

The magnet composition makes for a difference in the definition of notes as well as the tone so A5 tends to be sludgier at high gain but more pleasing clean than ceramics.

[ericsabbath]

sounds like an overwound black dog or something :?
wouldn't go over 13k, though

[studiojig]

I'm not going out to contradict Tim's recommendation but the Warpig does seem to fit your description as to what you want from the pickup.

However, you didn't mention what sort of high-gain sound you were after (A5 Warpigs tending towards a very modern metal sound) so you might actually do better with the RYs if you were going for a thrash or (at a push) tech metal feel.

The magnet composition makes for a difference in the definition of notes as well as the tone so A5 tends to be sludgier at high gain but more pleasing clean than ceramics.

Yes, this all makes good sense of course, and is what I've been leaning towards. However, I want much more output than I've evidently made clear in previous inquisitions to Tim and otherwise. Hence the interest in Warpig. It's curious to me that you suggest it as a sluggy pup when I've heard just the opposite (and yes, I mean the A5 version). Moreover, I've also heard/read that it cleans up quite well when guitar volume is lowered. Yes?

Oh, and I'm a big fan of the tone you'd hear on Chimaira's last album as well as LoG's Palaces or Wrath. Just high gain, tight, organic (i.e. non-active) and smooth in the treble register. cr@p, I know there are better examples/ways to define what I'm seeking but my mind is working at less than 100%. Perhaps sleep is the order.... :-)

[Antag]

I guess it depends on what you consider "high output" - relative to what?

The A'Pig is seriously powerful, very saturated & drives the amp hard :twisted:  Have a listen to the clip I did of it (although that's with Bb tuning so not sure how useful it will be to you).  I'm not sure you could ever describe the 'pig as being "PAF-ish"... :)

However it cleans up really well even without rolling the volume back - I was very surprised about this but it's a full warm dynamic pleasing clean tone.  Despite it's power it stays clean too - I found that the Holy Diver & Nailbomb (both of which are much lower output) seemed to get a bit of "grit" in the clean sound (i.e. push it into slight overdrive) much more readily - take a listen to the first 40 secs or so of this clip.

[studiojig]

I guess it depends on what you consider "high output" - relative to what?

The A'Pig is seriously powerful, very saturated & drives the amp hard :twisted:  Have a listen to the clip I did of it (although that's with Bb tuning so not sure how useful it will be to you).  I'm not sure you could ever describe the 'pig as being "PAF-ish"... :)

However it cleans up really well even without rolling the volume back - I was very surprised about this but it's a full warm dynamic pleasing clean tone.  Despite it's power it stays clean too - I found that the Holy Diver & Nailbomb (both of which are much lower output) seemed to get a bit of "grit" in the clean sound (i.e. push it into slight overdrive) much more readily - take a listen to the first 40 secs or so of this clip.


Wow, that's pretty heavy. What were you running through for that clip (the pig, or first one)?

[dheim]

warpig is what you really want, i know... :)
it has the smoothest highs on earth, and a malignant grinding sound when palm muted. one of my favourite BKPs!

[discofudge]

You seem a bit fixated on output. Do you use your amp on full and find it too quiet?

Output is only the volume of a pickup, you should be focussing on the tone and sound shape you want. The output does not affect this. When you say output do you mean 'heaviness' of tone? In which case the Cpig is probably the heaviest tone along with the miracle man.

Bill Lawrence once said that output was irrelevant, as a pickup could not make a 50w amp have more than that. It was always gonna be 50w.

I would either mail Tim again and clarify your TONAL needs, take his current advice, or go with your gut and get a A5 pig.

Either way, I'm sure it will sound great, and as long as you don't cut the wires, you could always swap it.

[dheim]

You seem a bit fixated on output. Do you use your amp on full and find it too quiet?

Output is only the volume of a pickup, you should be focussing on the tone and sound shape you want. The output does not affect this. When you say output do you mean 'heaviness' of tone? In which case the Cpig is probably the heaviest tone along with the miracle man.

Bill Lawrence once said that output was irrelevant, as a pickup could not make a 50w amp have more than that. It was always gonna be 50w.

I would either mail Tim again and clarify your TONAL needs, take his current advice, or go with your gut and get a A5 pig.

Either way, I'm sure it will sound great, and as long as you don't cut the wires, you could always swap it.

sorry, disco, but i don't think you got it.
output has not much to do with perceived VOLUME, but with the capacity of a pickup to drive the amp in distortion... an high output pickup can overdrive a clean channel (so in general high output pickups don't sound too well clean and sound a bit compressed) and push even more a distorted sound.
i think he means this when he speaks about high output...
i'm not sure that a Warpig is much louder than a stock ibanez pickup, but sounds way more evil... ;)

[maverickf1jockey]

I was stating in general terms rather than in the terms of BKPs.

Tim and co have the opportunity afforded to them to wind each pickup specially so the warpig is wound slightly differently from builder to builder and also to anything else in the range.

I believe this is the reason that is holds its definition so well in spite of the high level of windings and inductance around an A5 even at low tuning.
Conversely I suspect the ceramic version is wound 'looser' so that it isn't as tight as the miracle man or other ceramic pickups.

With machine winding the machines are often all calibrated the same or used for a number of models in the range, making for one model which sounds better than the rest as lower output models might feel weedy and higher output models being sludgy.

[discofudge]

You seem a bit fixated on output. Do you use your amp on full and find it too quiet?

Output is only the volume of a pickup, you should be focussing on the tone and sound shape you want. The output does not affect this. When you say output do you mean 'heaviness' of tone? In which case the Cpig is probably the heaviest tone along with the miracle man.

Bill Lawrence once said that output was irrelevant, as a pickup could not make a 50w amp have more than that. It was always gonna be 50w.

I would either mail Tim again and clarify your TONAL needs, take his current advice, or go with your gut and get a A5 pig.

Either way, I'm sure it will sound great, and as long as you don't cut the wires, you could always swap it.

sorry, disco, but i don't think you got it.
output has not much to do with perceived VOLUME, but with the capacity of a pickup to drive the amp in distortion... an high output pickup can overdrive a clean channel (so in general high output pickups don't sound too well clean and sound a bit compressed) and push even more a distorted sound.
i think he means this when he speaks about high output...
i'm not sure that a Warpig is much louder than a stock ibanez pickup, but sounds way more evil... ;)

I think we might be on the same page here. That's what i was asking, because pure output doesn't mean heaviness.

The warpig is a heavy pickup, but its loudness is irrelevant. This is why i asked if he meant loud to drive his amp's front end, or heavy to dirty up in a tight controlled and filthy manner.

I was just asking studiojig which he meant, i did not mean to cause any off topic discussion.

[dheim]

You seem a bit fixated on output. Do you use your amp on full and find it too quiet?

Output is only the volume of a pickup, you should be focussing on the tone and sound shape you want. The output does not affect this. When you say output do you mean 'heaviness' of tone? In which case the Cpig is probably the heaviest tone along with the miracle man.

Bill Lawrence once said that output was irrelevant, as a pickup could not make a 50w amp have more than that. It was always gonna be 50w.

I would either mail Tim again and clarify your TONAL needs, take his current advice, or go with your gut and get a A5 pig.

Either way, I'm sure it will sound great, and as long as you don't cut the wires, you could always swap it.

sorry, disco, but i don't think you got it.
output has not much to do with perceived VOLUME, but with the capacity of a pickup to drive the amp in distortion... an high output pickup can overdrive a clean channel (so in general high output pickups don't sound too well clean and sound a bit compressed) and push even more a distorted sound.
i think he means this when he speaks about high output...
i'm not sure that a Warpig is much louder than a stock ibanez pickup, but sounds way more evil... ;)

I think we might be on the same page here. That's what i was asking, because pure output doesn't mean heaviness.

The warpig is a heavy pickup, but its loudness is irrelevant. This is why i asked if he meant loud to drive his amp's front end, or heavy to dirty up in a tight controlled and filthy manner.

I was just asking studiojig which he meant, i did not mean to cause any off topic discussion.

with BKP heaviness and high output are not exacltly the same but usually go together... anyway you're absolutely right.

[Vilches3]

warpig = incredible

from my experience its not the loudest pickup, it sounds just really massive but it seems more focused on its organic tone than being a loud demonic beast. It can go incredibly heavy and do cleans exceptionally well. go for it! haha

[ericsabbath]

the warpig isn't dark

[MDV]

Ok, lets get a couple of things straight :)

- Pigs are not sludgy in the least
- The warpig isnt dark
- The warpig is quite smooth and fluid in the highs, and grinding and gritty in the mids.
- Output of the pickup isnt loudness, its how hard it clips the preamp. The magnitude of the signal the pickup makes and the volume you percieve have little to do with one another. A high output pickup will staurate harder.
- Smoother tones are easier to achieve with less preamp distortion, and a high output pickup is more likely to work against you in getting a smooth sound. Rely on the poweramp more than the preamp for smoother tones, drop gain and preamp volume, raise master volume.

And my recommendation - out of all the pickups I've heard, ever, the smoothest is the miracle man. Its also, if only to undermine everything else I said, rather powerfull. But it is bright and sharp, but its smooth and singing with it, not gritty or harsh in the least.