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Author Topic: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?  (Read 15311 times)

hunter

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Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« on: March 19, 2009, 01:55:39 PM »

I was wondering, some luthiers advertise with "hand made" guitars. But where are the boundaries, which processes must be manual so that a guitar actually may be called "hand made"?

Is the usage of CNC machines for body and neck sculpting prohibited?

Which processes are actually purely machine done on let's say a Chinese Epiphone versus a PRS Private Stock?

Aren't even on mass produced guitars many of the processes manual, just the difference is the skill and experience one has, and the attention and time one takes for the steps? Maybe luthiers should rather advertise with "built one at a time, with precision, skill and no compromise"?

What do you guys think of this?
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Antag

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2009, 02:02:48 PM »
Maybe luthiers should rather advertise with "built one at a time, with precision, skill and no compromise"?
IMO that's what most people understand by this particular use of the word "handmade".

You're right that it's not strictly the best use of the word, but it's gained general use in this context & is less clumsy than a longer sentence...
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Drac

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2009, 02:30:27 PM »
You're right- most every guitar is made by hands,
 
-it all comes down to how many hands ( 2, or production line),
where those hands were when they made their contribution,
how talented ( or un-talented) the strongest & weakest links of the chain were,

and like you stated, cnc vs. "old school": blood, toil, tears, and sweat.

cnc is a mass production staple, whether we're talking Fender custom shop, Gibson custom shop, or any place that produces more guitars annually per employee than there is months in the year ...

"If common sense is so common, where the hell is it?"

nfe

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2009, 03:27:47 PM »
I loathe the relentless use of "handmade" in marketing speil, since, in guitar terms, 99% of the time it's an outright lie.

Jonathan can call his guitars handmade, Doug at Black Machine can call his guitars handmade. No major manufacturer can (bar maybe Chris Martin, actually) If the bulk of the process is done by a computer, it isn't handmade, full stop.

I think the use of relentless photos of craftsmen in old fashioned workshops in guitar advertising is absolutelu shameless.

WezV

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2009, 03:53:25 PM »
i dont think it matters - but i appreciate it when peoples marketing includes some honesty about how they do it.

I personally cut every body and neck out by hand and carve and shape  every neck by hand.  I even used to do all my finishing by hand too.   i now ship our logos to someone with a laser cutter and finishing to someone who  is better than me.  i may ship out more stuff soon

sooner or later i may consider having a batch of bodies knocked up on CNC -   its a tool like any other... at the end of the day it comes down to the person putting it together, the material selection and the set-up.

so where would you place the boundaries if they did exist.  would i need to be chopping down my own trees and carving a guitar with a spoon for it to be handmade or am i allowed to use a router and template??
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 04:21:09 PM by WezV »

nfe

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2009, 04:37:29 PM »
Like I said, if the BULK of the work is done by hand, I'd call it handmade, if the bulk is done by machines (ones you aren't directly controlling all the time, I don't mean saws  :lol:) then it isn't.

Obviously not being handmade isn't a negative per se, but it IS used as a selling point, and most of the time, it's a flat out lie, and one that's often used to justify prices that would reflect the labour involved in a geniunely handmade product.

FernandoDuarte

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2009, 04:46:30 PM »
To me handmade is "NOT made with CNC", in a pratical point of view...

But want to have everything literally **done by hand** is just unpratical and less precise than with some machines...

****

:)

The biggest difference is the materials, Gibson will think about US$5 on price of each guitar, because in the end of the years this becomes million, a guitar builder who build them "by hand" won't care, if the product is better... At least in my point of view... would be completely out of sense make economy on everything on a "custom guitar", it's supposed and meant to be build with top notch materials... I wouldn't care much if I would buy a guitar from Feline or Wez and it was build on CNC IF the woods and parts are the best on market... My point of view...

WezV

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2009, 05:06:53 PM »
Quote
Like I said, if the BULK of the work is done by hand, I'd call it handmade, if the bulk is done by machines (ones you aren't directly controlling all the time, I don't mean saws  ) then it isn't.

 so it needs to be 51% of jobs done with hands or hand tools to be called handmade.  Are we going for 51% time or 51% difficulty, 51% removal of wood done by hand/handtools.  see, its still difficult to set the boundaries.  it makes "hand made" a pointless marketing term.

I dont see the point in worrying about it.  I like to know how a guitar has been built and who has put it together or designed it.


for me 'individually built/assembled' is more important than 'hand made'.  That doesnt mean i am against batch production where more than one guitar is made at a time, far from it.  It means i think its important that guitars are assembled, finalised and set-up by a particularly skilled person.


the reason i mentioned a router and template is because they are tools/machines used to help faster production... CNC is just a more developed version.    It all comes down to the scale of your guitar building operation and whether its cheaper to pay workers to cut out a body or is it cheaper to get a CNC to do it. 

MDV

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2009, 05:16:51 PM »
Most luthers get blanks cut elsewhere and do the final fine tuning, sanding and and assembely by hand. Thats the difference between a blackmachine B2 and B6, apart from woods and a couple of design features.

I know Bob at Legra does each guitar from scratch, now I know Wez does I dont know any others with certainty (save B2s, 7s and 8s) that do. Probably rather a few, but its becoming the exception rathat than the rule.

That said, I think that still qualifies. Right up to gibson style handmade, where there are 25 people, each responsible for one single aspect of the guitar.

I think the biggest differences between that and one man (or woman, but I dont know of any female luthiers) is that theres a man-with-the-plan. Anyone whos built something themselves and been part of a group each making different parts of one thing (anthing at all) knows theres a huge difference between one person keeping control of every aspect of a process, and taking a mental image that they have and making it reality and lots of people doing lots of much simpler little parts. The former has a clearer vision of a final result, and the job meshes better in the end

Plus, a single person making a single object of any sort almost certainly cares far more about the outcome and does it with more dedication that someone doing something monotonous and repetative. That counts for an unholy shiteload, in my opinion - the difference between the work of someone thats just doing a job and someone that cares about the job is HUGE, and much more important than distributing a workload or using more sophisticated technological assistance

And lets face it even the true 'handmades' arent - they're made with legions of tools. A bandsaw, drill press and even sandpaper are just as much tools as a CNC and laser etcher, so unless someones cutting down trees with karate chops, roughing out blanks with their teeth, routing with fingernails and sanding with 2-day stubble then its not really truely completely handmade, is it?

Philly Q

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 05:24:39 PM »
I think the biggest differences between that and one man (or woman, but I dont know of any female luthiers)

http://www.manzer.com/guitars/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=7


(Not trying to be a smartarse, just for interest  :) )
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jpfamps

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 05:28:32 PM »
Not sure I'd want a hand made engine in my car..........

hunter

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 05:30:48 PM »
I think the biggest differences between that and one man (or woman, but I dont know of any female luthiers)

http://www.manzer.com/guitars/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=7


(Not trying to be a smartarse, just for interest  :) )

Yeah but she builds girlie acoustics, no brootalz machinez :O)
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FernandoDuarte

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2009, 05:37:15 PM »
no brootalz machinez :O)



This is enough brootalz to me... show me it and oblige me to play and I won't sleep for a week with fear :o

WezV

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2009, 06:11:21 PM »
ellie erikson from over at the forum MIMF.com does some pretty fun stuff

http://ellieguitarstwo.blogspot.com/

there are a few out there!! 

FernandoDuarte

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Re: Discussion: What makes a guitar "hand made"?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2009, 06:22:07 PM »
ellie erikson from over at the forum MIMF.com does some pretty fun stuff
http://ellieguitarstwo.blogspot.com/

She makes guitars with that modern-weird shapes... don't like these kind of designs...

But I really like the girl she built a acoustic:


:o I definitevely would like her phone number :lol: