Kahler - tone suckers or bad luck?

[MDV]

I've played perhaps half a dozen kahler equiped guitars and found them all to be thin and whispy> Kinda brittle. They were all superstrats, bolt on and one neck trough

Is this an effect you've found? Is it just bad luck, and the kahlers were on thin and whispy guitars?

They're better designed, engineering wise, than floyds by far, but I've always been put off them by this experience. Have you had the same?

[Will]

Can't say what effect the Kahler had, but a maple necked Les Paul should be bright? I find it quite dark amplified, and generally balanced acoustically.
Slightly scooped in the lower mids (I think this is the pickups) with a slight push in the upper mids (think this is the Kahler)
This is a trem though, not hardtail. What is it you are interested in?

[Philly Q]

On my Hamer Special (set neck) I think the Kahler definitely took away some of the sustain.

On Strats it seemed to be less of an issue, but they worked best recessed into the top so the saddles could be raised up to a decent angle.

I really like the feel of the Kahler, but even though it's capable of huge divebombs I think it's best for gentle little waggles!

I think the problem's due to the fact that the saddles don't move (apart from the rollers of course) , so when the bar's in use and the back of the bridge lifts there's a lot less downwards pressure on the saddles.  Whereas on a Strat trem (or Floyd) the whole bridge moves, so some of the pressure on the saddles is maintained.  That's my theory anyway.

[MDV]

Will, I'm just interested in knowing more

I'm not after a kahler trem.

I've only played one maple necked les paul - epi ZW. It was a lot brighter.

Philly, if youre dropping the tension on the strings, the downward component of it isnt going to change; it'll be about the same proportion of the total tension (it'll change a bit with angle on a floyd, but not much).

[CaptainDesslock]

I've played perhaps half a dozen kahler equiped guitars and found them all to be thin and whispy> Kinda brittle. They were all superstrats, bolt on and one neck trough

Is this an effect you've found? Is it just bad luck, and the kahlers were on thin and whispy guitars?

They're better designed, engineering wise, than floyds by far, but I've always been put off them by this experience. Have you had the same?

I actually find that quite interesting as I usually hear nothing but rave reviews about them.  Even Legra is going to be using kahlers for the new lineup.....weird.

[Will]

Philly, did it really need more sustain?
I find no problem with the length of it that I can get.
I was just looking around the website today and thought maybe the aluminium and brass mix may be best as its similar to the TOM and Tailpiece, that is also listed as having longest sustain.

[MDV]

Yeah, its that bob thought that was "an odd coincidence" that makes me ask.

I mean, bobs endorsment is a weighty one, but I know what I heard - so I'm looking for evidence/testimony that would prove me wrong in my ascociation of thin sound with khallers. If I'm wrong it should be out there. I aint no quasi-superstitious confirmation bias using muppet. Prove me wrong! Theres so much in a guitars sound that it could easily not have been the khalers. It could have been the woods, the combo of woods and pickups, bad room, amp, memory decieving me, all sorts of stuff.

It hasnt been many guitars, not a big sample, all a long time apart, no A-Bing with anything otherwise very similar, save the kahler, no direct replacement and hearing a before and after. Just an ascociation, so I was wondering if anyone had better experience.

[WezV]

There are a few issues here.  Type/model of kahler, how its set-up and how its played

a badly fitted and set-up kahler will lack sustain.  I think we have discussed the correct height for kahler saddles before but basically you need to ensure the saddles are set quite high for a nice amount of downward pressure.  If you know this when you can build around it by either increasing the neck angle or recessing the bridge and they sustain much better.

I have tried a few 80's flyers, some of the newer 7000 series hybrids and a 2000 series.  The flyers reportedly have the least sustain.  even kahler say so:
http://www.kahlerparts.com/Other_Pages/Compare.htm
The ones i have tried did sound a little thinner but still more than passable with more than enough sustain for most styles of playing.  The hybrid is a very decent bridge and does not lack sustain at all.  the custom shop one was neater and possibly ever so slightly clearer but i think i actually prefer the hybrid because of the ability to set it as a hard tail, it in no way sounds bad

I said how you play it as well didnt i, i think sometimes people expect a kahler to act just like a floyd... it doesnt!!  its a much lighter feeling trem and takes more control to get working well for you.  It does not divebomb in the same way and i think  they do loose the sustain when trying to treat it like a floyd.  I guess if you want long sustaining divebombs either buy a floyd or change your technique slightly so it works with the kahler. if you want accurate and controlled trem usage then at least try a kahler

I have a hybrid and Flyer on a couple of my own guitars (i.e the ones i am currently playing and keeping for me!!). 

[Philly Q]

Philly, did it really need more sustain?
I find no problem with the length of it that I can get.
I was just looking around the website today and thought maybe the aluminium and brass mix may be best as its similar to the TOM and Tailpiece, that is also listed as having longest sustain.

Good question, Will.  I do like sustain, very much, and the main reason I don't like trems is the loss of sustain when you lower the pitch.

So yeah, maybe I didn't really need more sustain... in fact I used to like pulling up on the bar because then it would sustain more.  Maybe that's why I always broke the strings.  

[MDV]

There are a few issues here.  Type/model of kahler, how its set-up and how its played

a badly fitted and set-up kahler will lack sustain.  I think we have discussed the correct height for kahler saddles before but basically you need to ensure the saddles are set quite high for a nice amount of downward pressure.  If you know this when you can build around it by either increasing the neck angle or recessing the bridge and they sustain much better.

I have tried a few 80's flyers, some of the newer 7000 series hybrids and a 2000 series.  The flyers reportedly have the least sustain.  even kahler say so:
http://www.kahlerparts.com/Other_Pages/Compare.htm
The ones i have tried did sound a little thinner but still more than passable with more than enough sustain for most styles of playing.  The hybrid is a very decent bridge and does not lack sustain at all.  the custom shop one was neater and possibly ever so slightly clearer but i think i actually prefer the hybrid because of the ability to set it as a hard tail, it in no way sounds bad

I said how you play it as well didnt i, i think sometimes people expect a kahler to act just like a floyd... it doesnt!!  its a much lighter feeling trem and takes more control to get working well for you.  It does not divebomb in the same way and i think  they do loose the sustain when trying to treat it like a floyd.  I guess if you want long sustaining divebombs either buy a floyd or change your technique slightly so it works with the kahler. if you want accurate and controlled trem usage then at least try a kahler

I have a hybrid and Flyer on a couple of my own guitars (i.e the ones i am currently playing and keeping for me!!). 

Eeeeenteresting mr bond

So you think with some models or bad installation theres something in it, but not with some other models and correctly installed?

I understand what you mean about the angle and component of the tension now phil - the angle the string makes over the trees of the saddles. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense.

At least we can all agree that its better than a "Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You" trem, yes? :lol:

[WezV]

it looks like i talked about sustain a lot in that thread - something i normally avoid doing.... but an improperly set up kahler just doesnt transfer vibration well and that equates to the two things we call sustain and tone going out the window

[Philly Q]

I understand what you mean about the angle and component of the tension now phil - the angle the string makes over the trees of the saddles. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense.

At least we can all agree that its better than a "Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You" trem, yes?  :lol:

 :drink:

Yeah, I like Kahlers, despite the faults.  The unit which always fascinated me was the Washburn Wonderbar, which had a second set of rollers behind the saddles to maintain that angle .  Big ugly thing, though:

[Bob Johnson]

As has been mentioned; tone and sustain depend a lot on the compressive loads in the saddles and therefore relative saddle height. I usually kick the neck back a little to achieve this so you'd expect a Les Paul to have no issues in this respect.  :?

I've fitted lot's of Kahlers now and have always been happy with the results that's why I elected to go for Kahler trems on our new PG600 range (if we ever get it launched) but I am getting increasingly confused by which features are standard on what range. Please don't bother to try and explain it to me; I've had protracted conversations with people from Kahler and still get surprises when I open the box. I recently ordered three trems from them; all Pro-Series 2300's, two chrome and one black. The black one has the lock out feature like the hybrid and the two chrome ones don't. I've been receiving them with the lock feature for a while; I did query this thinking that they'd shipped me the cheaper hybrid but I was assured that the lock out feature had now been added to the Pro-Series. Well it looks like it's out again; the cam is machined for it but the frame is not :?

Back to tone and sustain; I've found that the metal mix you use makes a difference but of course these options aren't available on the cheaper versions. Peter Choi at Kahler is not supplying the cheaper trems like the Hybrid or the X-Trem for guitars over $1500 and they're not supplying the Pro-Series for guitars under $1500 so the price of the guitar makes a huge difference to what you're likely to get. Looking at the OEM price list there's no way the X-Trem for instance can be as good as the Pro-Series.

[JDC]

is there any solution to that problem with kahlers where left hand bends send the guitar slightly out of tune until you use the bar?

I've heard it's something to do with the lack of locking at the bridge end but I could be talking rubbish

[Bob Johnson]

Kahlers have great tuning stability but a good locking nut is essential. Unfortunately I can't give any glowing endorsement of the Kahler locking nuts 'cos I  just don't like 'em. A Kahler trem with a FR style locking nut is bullet proof in tuning terms.