Guitar Weight

[WezV]

I still think that, even in mass produced guitars, there are many, many other variables that might make a difference - different glue in the neck joint, electrics wired differently etc.  It would be very hard to pin tonal differences down to wood alone, wouldn't it?

how about 2 guitars made in the same batch in exactly the same way with exactly the same spec and exactly the same type of wood.  Of course they will sound similar, but they rarely sound the same.

its a combination of everything but when building for a certain tone I start with the woods and construction method and build up from there.... i cant just decide on the string length and gauge

[MrBump]

So, we need to apply scientific rigour!!!

There must be a rig that could be set up to measure different types of wood, their resonance, and the effect that this has on strings?  You know, measure the dependant variable. 

[MDV]

I still think that, even in mass produced guitars, there are many, many other variables that might make a difference - different glue in the neck joint, electrics wired differently etc.  It would be very hard to pin tonal differences down to wood alone, wouldn't it?

how about 2 guitars made in the same batch in exactly the same way with exactly the same spec and exactly the same type of wood.  Of course they will sound similar, but they rarely sound the same.

its a combination of everything but when building for a certain tone I start with the woods and construction method and build up from there.... i cant just decide on the string length and gauge

I recal the exact moment I had this driven home to me, rather forcibly -

Academy of sound (previously A1 music, later sound control) manchester, oxford street - they just got a batch of epi gothics in. I had a muck about with 2 explorers.

1 - nice guitar, spanky but with depth, good strong resonance, lively, harmonics came out easy and it had good thunk. liked it
2 - dead as a $%&#ing doornail. Just a wooly boomy sustainless mess.

Checked them over thoroughly - new strings, same action, same batch out of the factory, damn near identical serial numbers even - a few digits out from one another. As close as two gutiars can get to one another and one was pretty good and one was a cricket bat with strings on. The only thing that I couldnt see that could have plausibly cause the difference was the neck join - no way to tell how much glue was in each, and if one had A LOT more and no wood:wood contact in the join that may have caused the difference, I suppose. From the outside they were the same, however.

Conclusion - the same wood species can even sound very different from one guitar to the next. This has born out repeatedly in my experience, comparing on-paper extremely similar guitars, including wood species; they often have rather different sounds.

[MrBump]

I still think that, even in mass produced guitars, there are many, many other variables that might make a difference - different glue in the neck joint, electrics wired differently etc.  It would be very hard to pin tonal differences down to wood alone, wouldn't it?

how about 2 guitars made in the same batch in exactly the same way with exactly the same spec and exactly the same type of wood.  Of course they will sound similar, but they rarely sound the same.

its a combination of everything but when building for a certain tone I start with the woods and construction method and build up from there.... i cant just decide on the string length and gauge

I recal the exact moment I had this driven home to me, rather forcibly -

Academy of sound (previously A1 music, later sound control) manchester, oxford street - they just got a batch of epi gothics in. I had a muck about with 2 explorers.

1 - nice guitar, spanky but with depth, good strong resonance, lively, harmonics came out easy and it had good thunk. liked it
2 - dead as a $%&#ing doornail. Just a wooly boomy sustainless mess.

Checked them over thoroughly - new strings, same action, same batch out of the factory, damn near identical serial numbers even - a few digits out from one another. As close as two gutiars can get to one another and one was pretty good and one was a cricket bat with strings on. The only thing that I couldnt see that could have plausibly cause the difference was the neck join - no way to tell how much glue was in each, and if one had A LOT more and no wood:wood contact in the join that may have caused the difference, I suppose. From the outside they were the same, however.

Conclusion - the same wood species can even sound very different from one guitar to the next. This has born out repeatedly in my experience, comparing on-paper extremely similar guitars, including wood species; they often have rather different sounds.

Strong anecdotal evidence I grant ye, Sir.

But!

Who made the pickups?  Which machine were they wound on?  Could you be sure that they were consistent in their balance and output?  Indeed, were they properly adjusted?

I say thee "nay"!!!

Again, not saying that wood DOESN'T make a difference - it's obvious that it does.  However, I still think that it wouldn't be too hard to take most of the variables out of the equation and get to the heart of the issue, i.e. the wood.

Mark.

[MDV]

Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!

Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.

[dave_mc]

The guitar is a closed loop sympathetic resonance system - vibrations setup in the string cause vibrations in the body and neck that cause vibrations in the string. Ergo frequencies that can exist in both the string and the body and neck (since the string is capable of far more resonant modes than the guitar, this is quite few) are boosted in the string by constuctive interference with the resonance of the guitar and those that cant exist in one or the other are not permitted or severely diminished in the loop - the dominant modes in the string become the resonant modes of the guitar.

By your logic 2 guitars with the same strings on, both the same scale and both with the same bridge and nut would have (very nearly) the same sound. Sorry, but thats bollocks. The woods of the body, the construction, the shape, they all affect the sound very strongly.

that's the way i always understood it, anyway (albeit with fewer physics technical terms :oops: )- the woods will affect how the string vibrates.

[WezV]

So, we need to apply scientific rigour!!!

There must be a rig that could be set up to measure different types of wood, their resonance, and the effect that this has on strings?  You know, measure the dependant variable. 

feel free to invest in that if you wish... it wouldnt take too much.   Its not something that interests me enough to do it - but i would be interested in results derived from it

whenever i have seen people try to do something similar they have always  done an admirably simple scientific job of it and tried to control all variables other than 1.  basically they had tried to simplify the issue so it was easily testable.... but i havnt seen someone do it in a way i believe to be comprehensive of all the issues .  at some point they realise the size of the task at hand and start ignoring variables they dont feel are important

my experience doesnt come from scientific study because i dont feel i have the time or energy for that.  It comes from experience with different woods, hardware and designs... and even the same wood, hardware and designs.  Its taken a while but i do believe i am at the stage where i can knock on a plank of wood and it tells me something about how suitable it will be for a particular end purpose, and i feel i can hear those inital charateristics of the plank transfered through to the final tone - hopefully it something i can develop for greater consistency.... and i aint claiming to be any kind of eric johnson.

Is it accurate and scientific?....hell no.  i am not in this to prove anything about how much of a role wood plays in the guitar sound.  I am in it to make guitars that sound good and intuition and some experience tells me to start with the wood!!

[noodleplugerine]

Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!

Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.

Well then what does it matter how different they sound unplugged? Do you play unplugged?

[MrBump]

feel free to invest in that if you wish...

Hah!  Wez, you've seen examples of my luthiery - I'm not sure that we should be adding "cr@p workmanship" into the equation!!!

I just think that worst phrase in the English language is "just because"...  I like answers!

I suspect that one of the problems is the use of the word "tone", which probably isn't the best description of what we hear.  Musically speaking, "timbre" is probably a better description of what we hear - the quality of the sound that we hear.  But how you measure that?  That would be difficult...

Mark.

[Zaned]

Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!

Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.

Well then what does it matter how different they sound unplugged? Do you play unplugged?

Hmm, what do you mean? That the acoustic sound doesn't matter? (and sorry if I make wrong assumptions based on your reply)

Of course it matters. Even the electric guitar is an acoustic instrument to start with. That's what we hear when we play it unplugged, the acoustic sound of that particular guitar. All the pickups do is catch the vibration of those string making the sound, and impart their own characteristics on it.

That's the first thing I listen to in any guitar..the acoustic sound. If it sounds dead (strings taken into account of course), I won't bother plugging it in.

-Zaned

[noodleplugerine]

Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!

Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.

Well then what does it matter how different they sound unplugged? Do you play unplugged?

Hmm, what do you mean? That the acoustic sound doesn't matter? (and sorry if I make wrong assumptions based on your reply)

Of course it matters. Even the electric guitar is an acoustic instrument to start with. That's what we hear when we play it unplugged, the acoustic sound of that particular guitar. All the pickups do is catch the vibration of those string making the sound, and impart their own characteristics on it.

That's the first thing I listen to in any guitar..the acoustic sound. If it sounds dead (strings taken into account of course), I won't bother plugging it in.

-Zaned

I'm just saying he can't make judgements on how the guitars compare without the pickups - it just doesn't make sense.

[MDV]

Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!

Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.

Well then what does it matter how different they sound unplugged? Do you play unplugged?

Hmm, what do you mean? That the acoustic sound doesn't matter? (and sorry if I make wrong assumptions based on your reply)

Of course it matters. Even the electric guitar is an acoustic instrument to start with. That's what we hear when we play it unplugged, the acoustic sound of that particular guitar. All the pickups do is catch the vibration of those string making the sound, and impart their own characteristics on it.

That's the first thing I listen to in any guitar..the acoustic sound. If it sounds dead (strings taken into account of course), I won't bother plugging it in.

-Zaned

Exactly.

Pickups cant pickup anything thats not in the acoustic sound of the guitar to begin with. They dont create any sound, they detect it and filter it. Like you I dont bother plugging in if the accoustic sound doesnt hold promise.

I've actually bought several electrics based 100% on the acoustic tone. Didnt plug em in till I got em home.

[PhilKing]

As another reinforcement to the wood makes a difference camp, I have also bought guitars on the acoustic sound alone becuase the pickups weren't delivering the sound I knew the guitar had.  The pickups obviously give a lot of the sound of an electric (I know that just from changing pickups  in the same guitar, which I'm sure most of us have done).  However if the guitar is dead accoustically it will not shine with good pickups (unless you just want to have a thrash metal chugging rhythm sound, in which case you can take a high output pickup into a high gain amp and strap it onto anything with strings).

If the guitar body doesn't affect the vibrations then why does tightening the stop tail down on a Les Paul (or any other guitar with a stop/tom setup), affect the sustain?  Same thing with wood types.  If they don't affect anything, why is a maple capped mahogany guitar brighter than one that is all maghogany?  Finally, and one I have seen many times myself, why if I have 10 guitars of the same type from the same manufacturer and built around the same time, do some sound great and some just blah?  The only variable is the woods (in the case of the 10 I was restringing and setting them up when I used to work in music retail, so all the strings were new and the same brand and gauges).

[MrBump]

Whoa there Lesley!!!

I don't think that anyone is saying that wood doesn't make a difference, are they?

(hands up if you are...  :oops:)

I'm just making the point that we take a lot of this stuff as trueisms, but that there's actually very little empirical research into the timbre produced by, well, timber.  Unless there's a wealth of research that I'm not aware of. 

I remember reading something from, I think, Bob Johnson, talking about how crucial the neck joint is in a set neck guitar, and that the type of glue (and the amount of glue, state of the glue etc) can make a huge difference to the perceived sound of the guitar.  Now it seems to me that in a factory built guitar it's entirely possibly that the neck of a set neck guitar could be badly joined - this is at least as likely as there being "bad wood" in the damn thing! 

Maybe I'm just lucky in that I've never played any really bad sounding guitars, as have been described here.

Mark.

[Philly Q]

I'm sure someone could do a load of intricate scientific research to assess the effect of every component and construction detail on the sound of a guitar.  But then the only way of building this theoretical "perfect" guitar would be to use artificial, 100% consistent materials, because how would you be able to find pieces of wood with the exact properties required?   How would you even assess if a piece of wood had those properties?

I've got a vision of some "Vorsprung Durch Technik" boffins in lab coats producing some contraption and saying "This is the perfect guitar".  Then some good ole boy will drag out a knackered Strat and blow them away in two seconds.

Like Rocky chopping logs and beating that Russian bloke with all his computerised training gizmos.

Isn't it best not to get bogged down in theories, and just use your ears?  Anyone (even a tone-deaf incompetent like me) can pick up two "identical" guitars and tell straight away that they simply don't sound the same.