Username: Password:

Author Topic: Guitar Weight  (Read 14310 times)

Bob Johnson

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 445
    • http://www.legraguitars.co.uk
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2009, 01:45:04 PM »
Actually I have a lot of experimental data that I gathered whilst trying to develop the "ultimate bolt on neck joint". I still worked as a mechanical engineer then and had access to all the instrumentation, transponders and transducers that I needed. It was basically stuff we used to measure NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) in prototype vehicles and powertrain rigs.

There is absolutely no doubt that different types of tonewoods have a significant effect on tone as long as the vibration from the string has a good path to the body. Fully floating trems will in effect isolate the string from body so the only feed back that the string will get from the body is via the neck; if this includes a convenience fit bolt on or a badly glued neck the bodies input will be negligible. Body generated tonal colouring is best transmitted through simple well coupled bridges like two post wrap arounds; add rollers,cams, levers and springs and it's the bridge that will have the biggest effect on any tonal changes to the the strings basic vibration pattern. Just compare the difference in tone between a Floyd Rose with a steel sustain block and one with a brass one.

I spent so much time researching this subject  that I thought it was worth putting a brief summary of it on the website at http://www.legraguitars.co.uk/construction.htm

This is just a brief summary; there's much more detail on the same subject on the link to Jet guitar at the bottom of the page.

As MDV will no doubt verify, we actually engineered a guitar using a variety of materials in different places to produce a sound that was very clearly defined within tight parameters in advance; an exercise that I am happy to be repeating with Mark right now.

The attached pic shows the use of a mahogany insert to "soften" the bridge mount to give a warmer sound.

 
Regards,
Bob Johnson
Legra Guitars

MrBump

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 3405
  • Essex! Home of the Brave!!!
    • This Is Essex
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2009, 01:51:43 PM »
Isn't it best not to get bogged down in theories, and just use your ears?  Anyone (even a tone-deaf incompetent like me) can pick up two "identical" guitars and tell straight away that they simply don't sound the same. 

You're right, of course Mr Q, but I'd still like to KNOW, if you kow what I mean.  It's almost like art vs science in guitar building... 

Bob, when you were working on your prototypes, how did you classify the sound that you were hearning?  How was it measured?

Mark.
BKPs Past and Present - Nailbombs, Mules, Blackguard Flat 50's, VHII's & Trilogy Suite with Neck & Bridge Baseplates!

Philly Q

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 18109
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2009, 02:09:34 PM »
You're right, of course Mr Q, but I'd still like to KNOW, if you kow what I mean.  It's almost like art vs science in guitar building... 

I do know what you mean, I'm quite an analytical type in many ways.  But there are some things where I'm happy that "it just works" and I don't really care why.

As a non-guitar-related example, I love movies but I hate reading those film study books where they deconstruct a film and go into the symbolism, the technical details and things like "character arcs".   I only care if it produces an emotional response, not why it does.
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Bob Johnson

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 445
    • http://www.legraguitars.co.uk
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2009, 02:12:28 PM »

Bob, when you were working on your prototypes, how did you classify the sound that you were hearning?  How was it measured?

Mark.

The main method was with an oscilloscope analyzing signals from transducers on or implanted in the timber, ears are too subjective. We sometimes used strings and sometimes a signal generator driving a transponder. The overall target was to achieve a resonant peak for a whole structure with a bolt on neck that was similar, i.e. as low as, a structure with a glued neck. That is to say negate or partially negate the de-coupling effect of using a bolt on neck. Obviously lots of other data, some of it hard to understand or even repeat was thrown up at the same time; data on sustain and attack for instance.
Regards,
Bob Johnson
Legra Guitars

Lew

  • Guest
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2009, 02:14:41 PM »
Man, the last couple Legras posted here look damn good(even in parts!!!) but the photos on the site do them no favours!! :lol:

Bob Johnson

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 445
    • http://www.legraguitars.co.uk
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2009, 02:18:15 PM »
Man, the last couple Legras posted here look damn good(even in parts!!!) but the photos on the site do them no favours!! :lol:

Sorry about that Lew but we now have a new photographer so when I've built and had photo'd enough new stuff for a major update we'll do it.
Regards,
Bob Johnson
Legra Guitars

MrBump

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 3405
  • Essex! Home of the Brave!!!
    • This Is Essex
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2009, 02:28:53 PM »

Bob, when you were working on your prototypes, how did you classify the sound that you were hearning?  How was it measured?

Mark.

The main method was with an oscilloscope analyzing signals from transducers on or implanted in the timber, ears are too subjective. We sometimes used strings and sometimes a signal generator driving a transponder. The overall target was to achieve a resonant peak for a whole structure with a bolt on neck that was similar, i.e. as low as, a structure with a glued neck. That is to say negate or partially negate the de-coupling effect of using a bolt on neck. Obviously lots of other data, some of it hard to understand or even repeat was thrown up at the same time; data on sustain and attack for instance.

... now THAT'S what I'm talking about!

 :wink:
BKPs Past and Present - Nailbombs, Mules, Blackguard Flat 50's, VHII's & Trilogy Suite with Neck & Bridge Baseplates!

Philly Q

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 18109
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2009, 02:33:55 PM »
The attached pic shows the use of a mahogany insert to "soften" the bridge mount to give a warmer sound.

I really like the look of that one!  :D
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

MrBump

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 3405
  • Essex! Home of the Brave!!!
    • This Is Essex
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2009, 02:42:11 PM »
Yep - fine looking wood...
BKPs Past and Present - Nailbombs, Mules, Blackguard Flat 50's, VHII's & Trilogy Suite with Neck & Bridge Baseplates!

JDC

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1604
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2009, 02:56:32 PM »
how do those carbon fibre titanium ceramic space age material guitars from outer space sound compare to a good piece of wood?

MrBump

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 3405
  • Essex! Home of the Brave!!!
    • This Is Essex
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2009, 03:10:12 PM »
Actually Bob - is that the Boleyn guitar in that picture?
BKPs Past and Present - Nailbombs, Mules, Blackguard Flat 50's, VHII's & Trilogy Suite with Neck & Bridge Baseplates!

Bob Johnson

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 445
    • http://www.legraguitars.co.uk
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2009, 03:14:37 PM »
Actually Bob - is that the Boleyn guitar in that picture?

Yep!
Regards,
Bob Johnson
Legra Guitars

MrBump

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 3405
  • Essex! Home of the Brave!!!
    • This Is Essex
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2009, 03:35:13 PM »
Cool.  Love that guitar.  Used to drink in that pub too.

Mark.
BKPs Past and Present - Nailbombs, Mules, Blackguard Flat 50's, VHII's & Trilogy Suite with Neck & Bridge Baseplates!

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2009, 05:02:03 PM »
Actually I have a lot of experimental data that I gathered whilst trying to develop the "ultimate bolt on neck joint". I still worked as a mechanical engineer then and had access to all the instrumentation, transponders and transducers that I needed. It was basically stuff we used to measure NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) in prototype vehicles and powertrain rigs.

There is absolutely no doubt that different types of tonewoods have a significant effect on tone as long as the vibration from the string has a good path to the body. Fully floating trems will in effect isolate the string from body so the only feed back that the string will get from the body is via the neck; if this includes a convenience fit bolt on or a badly glued neck the bodies input will be negligible. Body generated tonal colouring is best transmitted through simple well coupled bridges like two post wrap arounds; add rollers,cams, levers and springs and it's the bridge that will have the biggest effect on any tonal changes to the the strings basic vibration pattern. Just compare the difference in tone between a Floyd Rose with a steel sustain block and one with a brass one.

I spent so much time researching this subject  that I thought it was worth putting a brief summary of it on the website at http://www.legraguitars.co.uk/construction.htm

This is just a brief summary; there's much more detail on the same subject on the link to Jet guitar at the bottom of the page.

As MDV will no doubt verify, we actually engineered a guitar using a variety of materials in different places to produce a sound that was very clearly defined within tight parameters in advance; an exercise that I am happy to be repeating with Mark right now.

The attached pic shows the use of a mahogany insert to "soften" the bridge mount to give a warmer sound.

 

A: Measuring the accoustic responses of woods and constructions - awesome.

B: Yep, thats what we did, and it worked.

Its Bobs experience of tonewood behaviour and guitar construction that allowed the MDV602 to sound how I wanted it to, and the MDV602 thats formed the backbone of the Aurora.

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: Guitar Weight
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2009, 05:44:34 PM »
(unless you just want to have a thrash metal chugging rhythm sound, in which case you can take a high output pickup into a high gain amp and strap it onto anything with strings)

This I must protest in the strongest possible terms, good sir!