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Author Topic: Strats  (Read 10216 times)

Bradock PI

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Re: Strats
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2009, 05:04:49 PM »
When they vintage stuff they do everthing coz that's what folks want and I am sure some of it is necessary to get the authentic sound, but I am not sure that it all is what do you think would make the ideal strat hybred - mix of vintage and modern parts.

Bob Johnson

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Re: Strats
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2009, 06:14:24 PM »
When they vintage stuff they do everything cos' that's what folks want and I am sure some of it is necessary to get the authentic sound, but I am not sure that it all is what do you think would make the ideal strat hybred - mix of vintage and modern parts.

Let's get this quite clear; "when they vintage stuff" they (whoever "they" are; and I'm not just talking about Fender) are making making a marketing decision to hit the the pockets of all the people who believe the mythology but can't afford to buy a vintage guitar. Lot's of vintage guitars are in point of fact cr@p. Modern construction techniques, hardware and electronics are on the whole much better than the fifties stuff as long as you stay away from the gear with the 25pence pots and 50pence pickups. I'm over sixty and have over a lifetime of playing in good, bad and indifferent bands with all sorts of gear can tell you quite unequivocally that gear today is better than it has ever been. 
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Bob Johnson
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Will

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Re: Strats
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2009, 06:17:04 PM »
I should also add to what Bob said; they do not copy everything to the right detail, and often cut corners.
It really is an effort to line their pockets further.

Elliot

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Re: Strats
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2009, 01:14:16 AM »
Who are they again?  Are we talking about FMIC?  or who?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 01:17:42 AM by Elliot »
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CaptainDesslock

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Re: Strats
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2009, 07:42:39 AM »
When they vintage stuff they do everything cos' that's what folks want and I am sure some of it is necessary to get the authentic sound, but I am not sure that it all is what do you think would make the ideal strat hybred - mix of vintage and modern parts.

Let's get this quite clear; "when they vintage stuff" they (whoever "they" are; and I'm not just talking about Fender) are making making a marketing decision to hit the the pockets of all the people who believe the mythology but can't afford to buy a vintage guitar. Lot's of vintage guitars are in point of fact cr@p. Modern construction techniques, hardware and electronics are on the whole much better than the fifties stuff as long as you stay away from the gear with the 25pence pots and 50pence pickups. I'm over sixty and have over a lifetime of playing in good, bad and indifferent bands with all sorts of gear can tell you quite unequivocally that gear today is better than it has ever been. 
Who are they again?  Are we talking about FMIC?  or who?


Honestly if you flip through any-

Guitar Magazine
Guitar Website
Guitar Dealership
Vintage Guitar Dealership

You constantly shoveled withvintage this vintage that, and on getting vintage tone, and how their '64 strat is better than anything they've ever played.  Guitars are not fine wine, they do not get " 'mo tone" with age, they are tools that get better and better as newer electronics and construction techniques are developed.

That's not to say vintage guitars are rubbish, or there's anything wrong with trying to get an "old-school" feel.  I'd love owning a '50-something tele or a `60 something strat, that's a piece of history, a treasure of sorts honestly. However I must admit as someone who does ALOT of gear research (I've seen something or another of most every custom guitar and boutique pedal websites out there) I find the vintage broo-haha almost annoyingly abusive to the ignorant consumer, almost as much as $500 boutique overdrive pedals  :roll:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 07:47:22 AM by CaptainDesslock »
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dheim

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Re: Strats
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2009, 11:58:29 AM »
When they vintage stuff they do everything cos' that's what folks want and I am sure some of it is necessary to get the authentic sound, but I am not sure that it all is what do you think would make the ideal strat hybred - mix of vintage and modern parts.

Let's get this quite clear; "when they vintage stuff" they (whoever "they" are; and I'm not just talking about Fender) are making making a marketing decision to hit the the pockets of all the people who believe the mythology but can't afford to buy a vintage guitar. Lot's of vintage guitars are in point of fact cr@p. Modern construction techniques, hardware and electronics are on the whole much better than the fifties stuff as long as you stay away from the gear with the 25pence pots and 50pence pickups. I'm over sixty and have over a lifetime of playing in good, bad and indifferent bands with all sorts of gear can tell you quite unequivocally that gear today is better than it has ever been. 
Who are they again?  Are we talking about FMIC?  or who?


Honestly if you flip through any-

Guitar Magazine
Guitar Website
Guitar Dealership
Vintage Guitar Dealership

You constantly shoveled withvintage this vintage that, and on getting vintage tone, and how their '64 strat is better than anything they've ever played.  Guitars are not fine wine, they do not get " 'mo tone" with age, they are tools that get better and better as newer electronics and construction techniques are developed.

That's not to say vintage guitars are rubbish, or there's anything wrong with trying to get an "old-school" feel.  I'd love owning a '50-something tele or a `60 something strat, that's a piece of history, a treasure of sorts honestly. However I must admit as someone who does ALOT of gear research (I've seen something or another of most every custom guitar and boutique pedal websites out there) I find the vintage broo-haha almost annoyingly abusive to the ignorant consumer, almost as much as $500 boutique overdrive pedals  :roll:

+1.
plus, even wine becomes vinegar...

i don't completely agree just on one point... i'm not sure if contruction techniques are really improving as years pass... mass production is the key, and so the simplest is a process the best it works in a busy and quick assembly line. but this often means a worsening in quality standards, and not always a fall in final prices.

but i won't change a 50s strat for a new ibanez prestige except for the obvious historic value!
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Elliot

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Re: Strats
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2009, 12:45:30 PM »
I personally find the assumption that people buying Fender Strats are dumb consumers or ill informed to be a bit of an arrogant assumption - are people who buy Apaches from BKP buying into a 50s mythology - are they 'dumb consumers' who should get noiseless SCNs or Kinmans instead? (after all we have moved on from simple 1940s pickup technology)

- as to technology making things better - I agree but has it moved on in the guitar world that much?  CNC machines can do good things, but it was open to Fender in the 50s to make set necks for better sustain and attack - Leo Fender chose not to - it didn't/doesn't seem to bother Hendrix, Clapton, Jeff Beck, Malmsteen etc etc etc and it doesn't bother people who buy strats today - many people rather like the thin cutting sound of a strat and I am one of them  :D





« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 01:24:51 PM by Elliot »
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dheim

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Re: Strats
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2009, 01:33:23 PM »
Well that's a surprise!








Sigh ----- another post trashed by the prejudices of the brootalz crowd

i'm -partly- in the brootalz crowd, but i'm not saying that i dislike vintage instruments... i many cases they're built much, much better than contemporary industrial products. i just think that in some case they're just old cr@p! i've played some great 60s guitar and some bad one. if you want classic sounds and you're lucky enough to find a working vintage amp you can't go better than that...

but i'm always a bit skeptical when people say that things will never be as good as they were (don't get me wrong, pollution and in general enthropy won't ever go back, 50s and 60s cars are so difficult to drive that they are wonderful experiences in themselves, dirty and broken sounds that came from inadequate gear boosted over their limits have become the standard in most genres), but there's always room for improvement. if you need it, of course. i don't mind about digital outputs and other goodies because i like guitars to be simple electromechanic devices, but if i can have a good distortion without messing with amp voltage or welding wires i'm happier, and i don't think that "modern" guitars sukk by definition... tradition ain't necessairly a good thing. slavery is not, for example... i'd give jus primae noctis a chance if i were a landlord, though :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 06:28:03 PM by dheim »
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dheim

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Re: Strats
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2009, 01:39:58 PM »
I personally find the assumption that people buying Fender Strats are dumb consumers or ill informed to be a bit of an arrogant assumption - are people who buy Apaches from BKP buying into a 50s mythology - are they 'dumb consumers' who should get noiseless SCNs or Kinmans instead? (after all we have moved on from simple 1940s pickup technology)

- as to technology making things better - I agree but has it moved on in the guitar world that much?  CNC machines can do good things, but it was open to Fender in the 50s to make set necks for better sustain and attack - Leo Fender chose not to - it didn't/doesn't seem to bother Hendrix, Clapton, Jeff Beck, Malmsteen etc etc etc and it doesn't bother people who buy strats today - many people rather like the thin cutting sound of a strat and I am one of them  :D







i don't think the discussion was against traditional models (strats, in the case)... desslock was just saying that something physically built 50 years ago is not necessairly better than something brand new...
rock lives on a 40 years old mitology and it's not a bad thing, of course...
we should just be a bit more open to some innovation, sometimes. and not always are.
Mule, MQ, Stockholm, CS, RY, MM, PK, ANB, CNB, AWP, CWP, PiG90...

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Bob Johnson

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Re: Strats
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2009, 04:18:47 PM »
Elliot, I can't can't recall anyone saying people who bought Strats were dumb or ill informed and I for one was definitely not implying that.

If for instance Leo Fender had decided to go for a glued neck the Strat would be a completely different animal. It's its construction that makes it what it is. It was one of the early examples of "design for assembly" an incredible innovation at a time when the Les Paul must have cost two or three times as much to make.

The point that myself and a few others were trying to make is going back to fifties designs to replicate something deemed as Vintage is predominantly a marketing device and not necessarily an acknowledgment that every thing in the past was so much better. You must agree that there's a lot of Voodoo BS talked about guitars in general and vintage guitars in particular. Quoting BKPs as an example of great vintage sound only underlines the point that nowadays you can get that kind of mojo with total consistency, unlike the fifties / sixties when you had to try and get your hands on as many guitars as you could to find one that sounded ok. Unfortunately that consistency isn't any more apparent in the modern Strat than it was in the old ones.

Clapton, Beck, Malmsteen etc have the luxury of having Fender bending over backwards to get them to play their stuff, I'm sure they don't have to hunt through the racks in a dozen guitar shops to find something they like.
Regards,
Bob Johnson
Legra Guitars

MDV

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Re: Strats
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2009, 04:47:58 PM »
Interesting you mention BKPs in this, Bob

I was chatting with Tim once about pickup design and history and PAFs in particular. The topic of paying vast sums for original pafs came up and Tim said that the originals, and all pickups back then, were wound one coil at a time by (often) immigrant labour that had (always) only rudimentary winding training, and all the coils thrown in a bucket, mixed together. The winders started untrained but eventually became very good at what they did, but not consistent from one winder to the next - occasionally the pickups that resulted from the random combinations of these randomised coils were awesome, but mostly they were rubbish, and he's done a lot of research to find out what made the awesome ones awesome. Ergo you get a better pickup now than you do then. Maybe betters the wrong word, actually, but certainly more of the pickups made by tim and guys like him are better now than then.

Upshot, IMO (not tims, he didnt say this part) people that pay thousands for original humbuckers are misty eyed fools that have more concern for image than sound.

Vintage guitars are clearly a marketing device, but only because theres a market for them (Bob outlined that market - the, to phrase it as charitably as I can, nostalgic-and-not-rich), but theres also absolutely nothing about a vintage that makes it sound better.

Someone else I know thats remembers the early days of electric guitar is quite scornfull of the instruments from back then, saying "For every good strat you found in the 60s there were 10 more that sounded like a car being chopped up with a breadknife".

Plus the main innovation of Leo fender, for which he is to be applauded, was designing a guitar that was easily built by an assembly line. Back in the day they were made from whatever wood was to hand, very often with 3 piece bodies, the woods sometimes differed from piece to piece in the same guitar.

Thats one of the reasons that guys that played them then played one, maybe two, and they were all worn to hell and back - look at SRVs frankenstien N#1, rory gallachers strat, jeff beck et al - they obviously like strats in a general sense, but they found one in particular that happened to do it for them and played the $%&# out of that particular guitar. You'd be an idiot to think that they hadnt tried out hundreds more and rejected them. People often take these players going for them as being testaments to strats, and in a sweeping way, on the overall design and feel of the guitar it is, but its also a testament to how hard it was to find a good one back in the 'vintage' era.

I find it quite pleasantly ironic that one of the reasons people lust over old strats (old players they like played them) with a little closer inspection provides a reason to not think that theres anything generally special about them :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 04:52:31 PM by MDV »

Dmoney

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Re: Strats
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2009, 05:06:08 PM »
i think the 50's ones are better in every way. i believe in mojo and a control cavity full of cobwebs and magic

Elliot

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Re: Strats
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2009, 05:53:21 PM »
The other main innovation of Leo Fender was to give his prototypes to players to play in the field and to return them with comments - hence the double cutaway, the 'comfort contour', the floating trem, the lighter body and all things that we now take for granted.  That is why his guitars have survived so long, in pretty much an unaltered form.
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MDV

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Re: Strats
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2009, 05:56:06 PM »
The other main innovation of Leo Fender was to give his prototypes to players to play in the field and to return them with comments - hence the double cutaway, the 'comfort contour', the floating trem, the lighter body and all things that we now take for granted.  That is why his guitars have survived so long, in pretty much an unaltered form.

Didnt know that, thanks.

badgermark

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Re: Strats
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2009, 06:19:54 PM »
The other main innovation of Leo Fender was to give his prototypes to players to play in the field and to return them with comments - hence the double cutaway, the 'comfort contour', the floating trem, the lighter body and all things that we now take for granted.  That is why his guitars have survived so long, in pretty much an unaltered form.

Didnt know that, thanks.

Pretty good move too, as Leo himself wasn't a player.

While I'm here, I'm mulling over getting a nice strat. The Billy Corgan sig looks mighty nice right now, i love the white colour scheme and the pickups sound very cool and fat. Anyone tried one?
Mississippi Queens, Holydiver.