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Author Topic: How nasty can the Manhattans get?  (Read 2897 times)

Balthazar

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How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« on: May 04, 2009, 11:51:14 AM »
Hey

As you will see in my post, I have no clue about pickups, or electric playing. Bear that in mind when responding!! :)

I've been playing with the idea of getting new pups for my new Ibanez semi-hollow:

http://www.ibanez.co.jp/products/eg_page09.php?data_id=615&color=CL02&area_id=3&year=2009&cat_id=1&series_id=244

If I do it, I'm sure it will be a BKP. I have listened to loads of sound clips on the forum... and have a hard time making up my mind, but among others, the Mississippi Queens have grabbed my attention. I want to be able to be quite aggressive, but articulated and clear - and keep some of the acoustic qualities cause the guitar sounds waaaay cool unplugged. I think it sounds bright and lively, but I'm no expert and don't have other guitars to compare with. My concern is that the MQ's may be a bit too rounded (not trebly enough) for my taste. Therefore I've been thinking maybe the Manhattans (which are lighter wounded) might do the trick? I read some semi hollowbody owners on the forum say the MQ's sound rather polite - not a way I'd like to sound, and that Manhattans are even 'nicer' as opposed to the riff raffs, which may be more suited for what I'd like (to rock hard). But then again I've heard some seriously nasty stuff on the forum, with various P-90 configurations, including the MQ's - that really kicks you in the belly. I'm especially thinking of some of hunters awesome clips. Actually, I think the crunchy/distorted/fuzzy rythm clips of MQ's sound awesome, and in hunters clips with riff raff bridge/MQ neck I actually prefer the MQ's because the riff raffs (on those clips) sound a bit too compressed and too AC/DC to me... but then again hunter says he mounted it in certain ways to achieve exactly that sound. All the hard rocking clips of the MQ's are in solid-bodies, though. I have no clue whether it would sound like that in a semi hollow.

But all this has led me to wonder about the following: Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine used a standard Telecaster weith no mods, a guitar that usually sounds very thin and wimpy. Still RATM sound powerful and punchy. Jimi Hendrix used a Stratocaster with (probably low-output) single coils, which some people say are for sissies. He didn't have the same punch as modern metal, but still sounded anything but polite. I've seen signature Stratocaster models for Sepultura guys at Fender's site, which I think were single-coil. Soooo: Could it be, that there is a serial killer hiding inside the Manhattans, waiting to get out of the closet? How would it sound (especially in a semi-hollow), with max gain and aggressive playing? I know it's actually meant for jazz players, though... :)

As I have already said, I have no clue about pickups/electric guitars, go easy on me!! :)

gwEm

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 12:39:15 PM »
almost anything will sound nasty through a hard fuzz i guess...
Quote from: AndyR
you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

Balthazar

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 12:53:12 PM »
Good point! I wonder if anybody has one and be willing to make a hardcore sample (I like hardcore)... :)

I wonder how the semi-hollowbody construction and materials used will affect sound as compared to the Gibson SG and Les Paul demos of MQ's I have heard?

I have tried to use this page:

http://www.jemsite.com/jem/wood.htm

...to figure out how the materials will affect sound. But the Ibanez page only says "flamed maple", not soft or hard. The site above makes a distinction between hard/soft maple, says hard maple is rare (which indicates it's soft maple), and seems to be rather negative about soft maple...  :?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 12:58:57 PM by Balthazar »

badgermark

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 03:02:53 PM »
Warmoth is really your best bet for wood descriptions. They got wood
Mississippi Queens, Holydiver.

Balthazar

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 03:33:25 PM »
Well thank you very much! This is truly very helpful. So I see, my guitar has consistently been built with bright materials with attack and bite. This fits well with my preferences. Semi-hollows are generally associated with smooth, rounded sound, it seems, and that's the opposite of what I like. But my guitar doesn't sound like typical smooth-rounded-jazz-stuff, and I don't want it to. I suppose the choice of materials counteract the rounded-ness that a semi-hollow construction makes. Something like that. This means, I suppose, that the riff-raffs may be a little over-the-top for that type of guitar? Since thay can sound rather trebly and bitey in a standard 335, I mean. Then maybe MQ's are a good deal after all, I've heard many good MQ clips around. Later, when I get my act together, I may e-mail BKP with a more detailed description of my prefs.

Thanks a lot so far.

badgermark

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 04:19:19 PM »
Yeah get in touch with Tim and the lads, they are always spot on with their suggestions. I love my MQs in my les paul, they sound HUGE. With my home made Rat clone set to mild distortion they still sound massive, yet still retaining a lot of clarity across the strings. A user here called Fourth Feline has had both the MQs and Manhattans in a semi hollow. Even though he is a jazz player, he might be able to shed some light on your decision.
Mississippi Queens, Holydiver.

Balthazar

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2009, 10:45:22 AM »
Thank you thank you.

I see there are a bit too many bills coming this month, so it will be a while till I can afford it. Also, I'll need better equipment to play my guitar on, so I can better figure out what I'd like, and how I like my current pups. I started searching for pickups because while the guitar sounded really cool acoustically, it sounded bland when played electric through Logic Pro and the amp modellers that came with it (I don't have a real amp). I suspect the sound card is the biggest problem currently.

When I later tried it in my friends studio, it sounded great, but then I had already discovered BKP, and was hooked on the idea of getting one... :)

So I need to figure out what I really have before I can figure out exactly what I need!

EDIT: I felt the discussion about amp modellers etc wasn't on-topic in this forum, but I posted a discussion about my playing equipment here: http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17250.0
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 10:57:07 AM by Balthazar »

Fourth Feline

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 09:43:23 PM »
Yeah get in touch with Tim and the lads, they are always spot on with their suggestions. I love my MQs in my les paul, they sound HUGE. With my home made Rat clone set to mild distortion they still sound massive, yet still retaining a lot of clarity across the strings. A user here called Fourth Feline has had both the MQs and Manhattans in a semi hollow. Even though he is a jazz player, he might be able to shed some light on your decision.

Hi,

I have used neither M.Qs or Manahattans for "nasty " -  and have only used the Manhattans in a fully hollow Jazz box. However,  Having heard the M.Qs  in a Semi-hollow - and the Manhattans in a full hollow , I can say forget the Manhattans, think M.Qs.  The reason ? - The Manahattans ( as Tim Intended ) are such an elegant, open, clear and polite yet warm and articulate pickup - they are ( in sound ) considered by me and the Jazz players / specialists at Foulds of Derby - as the very essence of a 50's Jazz pickup.  If you want vaguely similar qualities, but more flexible due to output/ focus - the M.Qs are the bridge between them and 'standard'  vintage humbucker territory.  Vintage, yet potentially more edgy than ( for example ) Alnico II or Alnico IV Stormy Mondays e.t.c.

Truth, is - I was using my M.Qs for the less driven / cleaner facets of Larry Carlton's sound ( but with a sharper, more articulate bass than the Stormy's ) - and Manhattans purchased exclusively to be pure, low volume warm Jazz.  They are probably as specialised / specifically fit for purpose in the low output range as the Painkillers are in the 'balls out' range of B.K.P. 

Forget Manhattans for your requirements, they truly are great pickups ( the only ones I play now ) - but ( I.M.O)  un-appologetically  specialised for clean, low volume , sophistication and articulate warmth. Very subtle but never anaemic.

 I assume  that is why Manhattans  don't appear in the general 'catalogue' ;  very 'under the counter' stuff for the chord melody player, ( o.n.o. )   I mean ,  if an Alnico II Stormy Monday is STILL not subtle / open / clear / revealing enough for you, then Tim has to lock the shop door, go under the counter - and offer you " A bit of special " as they say in 'The League Of Gentlemen' ...  :wink:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 10:00:35 PM by Fourth Feline »

Balthazar

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2009, 12:49:47 PM »
Thanks. Great description of the Manhattans and why I don't need them... :)

Unlike I may have seemed, my musical preferences are actually a bit more versatile - my favourite player is Andy Summers of The Police, who was somewhat influenced by jazz, but played with a more punky edge, at least in the early days of the police.

In my research of great pickups, I have fallen much in love with the P-90 sound. I thought, apart from the great crunchy sound you get from p90's, it might also help me getting the top end which tends to get cancelled out in humbuckers. Some of the MQ clips on the forum are great, but they're all coming from solid bodies. What scared me a bit with regards to MQs in a semi-hollowbody is that you posted a clip of ... exactly... Larry Carlton as an example of MQ sound in a 335, this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNIXVw_kni4&feature=related
(I know it's actually humbuckers... you explained all that...)

Marvellous playing, anyway my concern, at least throughout the beginning of this clip, is that this sounds too subdued for me... to rounded in the upper registers where I'd like a bit more sparkle, bite and clarity... Towards the end, the clip gets much more the way I like it. I suppose that is not what you think of as the cleaner aspects of his sound.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 12:54:36 PM by Balthazar »

Fourth Feline

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2009, 08:43:07 PM »
Thanks. Great description of the Manhattans and why I don't need them... :)

Unlike I may have seemed, my musical preferences are actually a bit more versatile - my favourite player is Andy Summers of The Police, who was somewhat influenced by jazz, but played with a more punky edge, at least in the early days of the police.

In my research of great pickups, I have fallen much in love with the P-90 sound. I thought, apart from the great crunchy sound you get from p90's, it might also help me getting the top end which tends to get cancelled out in humbuckers. Some of the MQ clips on the forum are great, but they're all coming from solid bodies. What scared me a bit with regards to MQs in a semi-hollowbody is that you posted a clip of ... exactly... Larry Carlton as an example of MQ sound in a 335, this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNIXVw_kni4&feature=related
(I know it's actually humbuckers... you explained all that...)

Marvellous playing, anyway my concern, at least throughout the beginning of this clip, is that this sounds too subdued for me... to rounded in the upper registers where I'd like a bit more sparkle, bite and clarity... Towards the end, the clip gets much more the way I like it. I suppose that is not what you think of as the cleaner aspects of his sound.

Magic stuff !  Spookily enough, it was that video - and 'Just An Excuse' from the same night's performance that made me want to get the M.Qs.  Bear in mind, that Larry does subtly right hand mute his notes , especially at the start of solo's - and often uses the bridge pickup with the tone rolled down to 3 or 5 . These 'tricks' he also seems to use a lot for playing shuffles / riffs .   I bought the 3 CD-Rom Interactive 335 Blues package, plus The Sapphire Blues Band tour CD and DVD  from the U.S.A to research his playing and philosophy as deep as I could .
 
For me the Stormy Mondays ( even with the magnets later changed from the softer AII to the more focused AIV type ) - still left the bass end in my basswood / mahogany 335 copy a bit too woolly.

For the options of a truly FAT but articulate top end in the neck and middle toggle positions - OR a biting edge ( if needed )  achieved with the simple flick of a pickup switch, just go from the neck M.Q ( Alnico IV magnet - and really 'fat ' wound ) - to the Alnico V bridge, THEN dig in with your pick, tone control pot fully up - and you end up in that sonically delightful 'Twighlight Zone' that sits between a meaty type of Andy Summers Telecaster bridge pickup sound - and the classic P.A.F sound.   Sweet and fat - but definately with that muscular single coil edge.

I tend to play almost everything, on all guitars in the middle toggle position - and pick quite gently, but even played lower volume / zero distortion, an experimental flick over to the M.Q. bridge alone, and digging in harder was sweet but would cut through more than the classic humbucker. Hard to describe, but lovely to do !

The M.Q being that ideal Marriage of a beefy, yet crystal clear  P90  - and a fully sheilded (  great looking ) casing.   :)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 08:52:57 PM by Fourth Feline »

WezV

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2009, 11:39:48 PM »
i am a manhattan fan - and i do occassional play them dirty.  clearly not what the pickup was built for but i rarely go for 'one-sound' pickups, and in fairness i dont think BKP make any of those

i like the manhattan because it translates the guitars woods and construction very nicely and it has a nice clear acoustic quality.  you get the same qualities when you push it, that can get a bit much with high gain but a nice crunch to heavy overdrive is very nice

Fourth Feline

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2009, 11:15:33 AM »
i am a manhattan fan - and i do occassional play them dirty.  clearly not what the pickup was built for but i rarely go for 'one-sound' pickups, and in fairness i dont think BKP make any of those

i like the manhattan because it translates the guitars woods and construction very nicely and it has a nice clear acoustic quality.  you get the same qualities when you push it, that can get a bit much with high gain but a nice crunch to heavy overdrive is very nice

I was hoping you would chime in Wez.  :)

I remembered that someone of note had a neck Manhattan in a solidbody - and was using it for a wider range of music, but in my haste , had forgotten who. 

 I therefore found your post very interesting - as ( I am sure you will appreciate ) if you love owning and using a lesser known B.K.P. pickup, yet use it as a 'one trick pony' - it's great to hear about :

A) Other people's perspectives / opinions

B) What other things it can do, over and above one's own usage.

I am sure you can appreciate / confirm - that with the Manhattans, even a subtle change of plectrum - or bridge material e.t.c. can be heard very noticably with these pickups. I swear I can even hear the difference between dry or damp fingertips on the fretting hand  when playing chord melody stuff.

Cheers !  :good:
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 11:26:15 AM by Fourth Feline »

WezV

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2009, 03:10:34 PM »
yeah, most of the times i am using normal cheap plecs (just had a load printed actually) but my red-bear one tends to come out with that guitar - especially when playing clean.

tbh i dont buy pickups to do a specific job  or with a specific sound in mind, my stuff for me is usually more versatile than that - well not unless its for someone specific that needs a specific sound.  i brought the manhattan because i liked the cover and i hadnt tried one, but its definatly now one of my favorites




Balthazar

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2009, 04:14:18 PM »
Quote
...and you end up in that sonically delightful 'Twighlight Zone' that sits between a meaty type of Andy Summers Telecaster bridge pickup sound - and the classic P.A.F sound.

Wow. Did they pay you anything to write this, cause you sure know how to sell pickups... :)

Our of sheer optimism I went to the local guitar shop to try out some P90 models, to figure out whether I actually like playing on P90's. I tried a PRS SE soapbar model (couldn't find a semi-hollow with P90's). Of course it didn't tell me much because it was a solidbody, plus it was strung with very light strings, they felt like rubber strings. I have .011-.052 strings myself, I guess yours are thicker. It felt like someone had set precense at 13 or something (on a scale from 0-10), and yet there was no precense knob on the (Laney) amp. I felt like a boxer trying to pick flowers with the boxing gloves still on me, cause I barely touched the strings and the tones just jumped out at me. I wanted to improve my attack and that guitar sure had lots of it... :) (compared to what I'm used to)

Do you have to play very lightly on the strings with the MQ to... how shall I put it... control your attack, and keep some dynamic headroom?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 05:00:22 PM by Balthazar »

Fourth Feline

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Re: How nasty can the Manhattans get?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2009, 06:30:54 PM »
Quote
...and you end up in that sonically delightful 'Twighlight Zone' that sits between a meaty type of Andy Summers Telecaster bridge pickup sound - and the classic P.A.F sound.

Wow. Did they pay you anything to write this, cause you sure know how to sell pickups... :)

Our of sheer optimism I went to the local guitar shop to try out some P90 models, to figure out whether I actually like playing on P90's. I tried a PRS SE soapbar model (couldn't find a semi-hollow with P90's). Of course it didn't tell me much because it was a solidbody, plus it was strung with very light strings, they felt like rubber strings. I have .011-.052 strings myself, I guess yours are thicker. It felt like someone had set precense at 13 or something (on a scale from 0-10), and yet there was no precense knob on the (Laney) amp. I felt like a boxer trying to pick flowers with the boxing gloves still on me, cause I barely touched the strings and the tones just jumped out at me. I wanted to improve my attack and that guitar sure had lots of it... :) (compared to what I'm used to)

Do you have to play very lightly on the strings with the MQ to... how shall I put it... control your attack, and keep some dynamic headroom?

 :lol:  No mate, not being paid, "I have no affilitaion " e.t.c. - but that ( to my ears ) - is what you get. No offence to the predominantly high gain players here, but when you have spent years playing with no distortion - and practice at low volumes, you tend to quickly hear the character of the 'raw' pickup sound / intrinsic character - before any further colouration is added.

I play gentle, mostly because I like to play as physically relaxed as possible, and have a very low action -  more for dexterity and efficiency of motion .  Also  I chill out -  'feel' and put more emotion / flow  into the piece better when picking softly and sweetly. 

In addition to that ;  even with flatwound Thomastik 'Jazz Swing ' 12 - 50s,  ( a brand known for it's lower tension tapewound Jazz strings strings ) - constant chord melody playing is initially quite hard on the fretting hand, as you are basically holding ( and moving quickly between ) full barre chords and letting the 'free' fingers play some of the adjoining melody notes.    Yes,  I know I could used more diads , traids and 'slash' chords than I do, but I love to play Joe Pass style - and feel control over the whole width of the neck, then just pick the strings / notes within the harmony I want according to taste at the time.   This way, If I ever need to accompany a singer, or Bass player - I don't have to completely re-learn / re- arrange each song, merely avoid the bass , middle  or top strings a bit more than I do for any given 'standard' when played as a solo piece.

I must add of course, that I do like to like play with picking dynamics a lot ( my plectrum and right hand are  my volume and tone controls ) - as I like to get an arrangement just as I want it with any interest added in changing tempo and attack -  completely unplugged at first.

 Then, when I add the little Jazz Amp ( in my case a Phil Jones Cub 100 ) it's just a bigger guitar, not a louder one.   I even tried the old Joe pass trick of going via a basic powered D.I. box ( no speaker emulation or gain, just clean impedance matching and line strength boost ) into my small P.A. - and that sounded fine too.  That is not to say that the Cub 100 doesn't sound better ; but rather to demonstrate, that for me 90% + of the arranging / playing / tone manipulation is done on the guitar.

This is mentioned / leads onto - why I found ( very late in life ) - the whole P90 experience fun. They were fat and smooth until I physically dug in at the bridge or bridge / Neck combination - then they did that Larry Carlton type of thing, where suddenly they get sassy, glassy and 'bite back' .  That is not dissing my Stormy Mondays or Mules, - as they remain totally valid, but for perhaps more of a 70's Rock / Rock Blues dynamic.   For them a rare excursion into gain / overdrive / hot amp channel may be used ;  but for my  complete  Blues / Jazz tonal range, the P90s seeming to morph  between Telecaster and Les Paul pickups sounds is the 'Swiss army knife'  I prefer. 

The only caveat / warning I would give though, is that as both bridge and neck M.Qs contrast each other rather than a stark 'black and white ' effect - ( I assume due to the relatively centralised polepieces beneath the length of the strings - and that fat winding on both )  the only thing seperating the bridge and neck characters is perhaps the more focused magnet on the bridge - and of course, the strings always being somewhat 'twangier' and tighter near the bridge.       


To be honest, a fellow forumite let me play some 'standard ' ( I.e. Plastic type )  B.K.P P90s and I was not blown away, but the M.Qs I really liked. I thought I remembered a mention that Tim wound M.Qs hotter, more P91 neck  /P92 bridge - although I could have been mistaken.
The Manhattans if being compared to the M.Qs ( as Wez concured ) just optimise the subtleties of the basic guitar woods, hardware , picks used e.t.c.  so much more than any other pickup.  So for Jazz, or ballady ( almost acoustic  sounding ) interludes in a Rock context, they add a dollop of warmth, clarity , 3 dimensional soundstaging  that is obvioulsy going to appeal to a player who's pickups ARE the only 'sound effect' added to the basic character of the guitar.  O.K.  - I sometimes 'do' a splash of acoustic reverb ( Fishman AFX ) - if the room sounds too flat, but rarely so.

In summary, if you want to get to know your guitar's intrinsic tonal character better, try a lovely 'open' scatterwound B.K.P variant of the P90.  A  M.Q set for 'sweet to sassy '  or a Manhattan set for for 'sweet but revealingly honest.     :)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 07:05:45 PM by Fourth Feline »