BOUTIQUE -- or BS?! -- Discussion

[FELINEGUITARS]

Interesting debate:

The reason a lot of Boutique stuff is firmly based on classic lines is because of customer demand in general

I had always had a "blank piece of paper starting point" for my custom builds, and still do to an extent
You want a doubleneck built in the likeness of Geri Halliwell in her Union Jack Dress?
We'll build it (and yes I have been asked for that one - it's half built waiting on the guy to find some more money)

But considering that we have offered to make people whatever they want , more often than not players would ask for  something that resembles something traditional or classic - but usually with personal touches or refinements or improvements.

Many of the models I make I would class as updated classics.
Many of the most popular refinements are pretty much what I consider my standard features
A better neck joint , or a stiffer more stable neck
Less chances of a headstock break
Locking tuners and hardware
Custom wound pickups
A personal preference for neck size, fretwire etc
Left handed versions of guitars that were never made as lefties

I have gone down the custom route myself with stuff to get stuff that suits my needs better
My bike was put together for me by the Guys at Geoffrey Butlers (their shop is round the corner from me)
Ampwise I love stuff that is considered boutique by many
My Egnater modular series are totally brilliant - even more so than my trusty ADAs to my current tastes
Even my ADAs are modified in some cases
I intend to get some Randall Modules modified  so is that "Boutiquing/customising an already boutique amp"

My other amps are from MJW and Heavier Than Hell has one in the works for me based on my own personal tastes

It's about attention to detail, improved component choice (not Hi-Fi but just what will sound best)
It's about having stuff that inspires me and makes me want to play

[Davey]

why butique over vintage and standard?

for me..

#1 it's higher quality that the standard run of the mill product

#2 it's in most cases cheaper, more reliable, more accessible than vintage products

#3 you can have it factory tailored to your liking

#4 (kinda a combination of points) you can get exactly the sound you want, from 3 pieces of gear, without fancy EQing, technitians .. where previously you'd need a myriad of effects, just to get to that level of tone you want (well... in some cases.. you can still plug in straight and get oblivion :D .. with more reliability)

#5 SUPERB customer support and warranty


and that is why it's always going to be "better"

[JamesHealey]

I can hear the difference between a Marshall Handwired Reissue plexi and my old original 69.

I can tell the different between a T-Rex Alberta pedal vs a TS9 reissue and I can tell the difference between my Zvex Box of Rock and anything else similar.

I enjoy my gear but I don't pay huge prices coz I get most of it at trade (working in a guitar shop helps ladies).

anyway yea it's all much of a muchness but it's nice to try something new and Im convinced most modern mass produced stuff is just utter shitee.

[Lew]

Im convinced most modern mass produced stuff is just utter shiteee.

Care to elaborate?  8)

[Matt77]

Whenever I read about vintage stuff or boutique stuff trying to hark back to a vintage product I think of that dude from Raiders of the Lost Ark.

"Look at this [holds up a silver pocket watch]: it's worthless. Ten dollars from a vendor in the street. But I take it, I bury it in the sand for a thousand years, it becomes priceless! Like the Ark. Men will kill for it; men like you and me."

Does this fit in this thread? Probably not, but it's Friday

[Bradock PI]

I think there is a very specific issue for vintage amp circuits and it is related to the way electronic engineering has moved. The greatest pool of knowledge on analogue circuits and valves existed between the 40s and 70s the engineers of this period would spend more or less all of their time training and understanding valves and analogue technology. Over time this has been reduced step by step and there are now relativley speaking only a handfull of people with that level of understanding. Obviously those people will build on the best that came out of the hot house period and evolve it where they can. The low volume hadbuilt nature is what makes them expensive. The same reasoning applies to those great pedals people want to emulate.

The digitisation of music and lately the compression of it has made a huge difference to the skills base and real sounds. Talk to any of the early BBC or studio and live engineers from EMI or Deutche (sp) records and listen to any of those two mic recordings they made and you soon realise what a huge step backwords mass market music has taken.

In other areas I am less sure some mass produced very expensive instruments may well be outperformed by lower priced handbuilt customs. The idea of a cnc machine cutting features like fret slots seems reasonable to me but for the shaping of the body I am sure a handbuilder shapes to the tone they want tapping and changing as they go (I may be wrong) but its in the hand finishing that I think the instrument gains its tone.

Stiff doped paper cone speakers are used for large speakers because apart from a few very very expensive alternatives it has always proved to be the best. When speakers drop to 8" and less then many other materials come into their own.

[Prawnik]

Whenever I read about vintage stuff or boutique stuff trying to hark back to a vintage product I think of that dude from Raiders of the Lost Ark.

"Look at this [holds up a silver pocket watch]: it's worthless. Ten dollars from a vendor in the street. But I take it, I bury it in the sand for a thousand years, it becomes priceless! Like the Ark. Men will kill for it; men like you and me."

Does this fit in this thread? Probably not, but it's Friday

I'd disagree with the analogy. The price for any object is set by supply and demand. Of course, the interaction of demand and supply is a bit more complicated than this, but bear with me.

In the case of the old watch, it is valuable (assuming that it becomes a collector's item, as lots of old things aren't) because supply of very old watches is limited. They are rare.

Most vintage guitars, amps, etc. are really not all that rare. Thousands were made not long ago, many or most survive, even if they are not all factory-mint.

What drives prices for guitars and gear is demand more than supply. Now, one could argue that demand for vintage gear is largely an artifact of the baby boom generation trying to buy the guitars their heroes once played and otherwise to relive their youth, and that prices for such gear will fall as the boomers get older, but that is another discussion.

[38thBeatle]

I cannot add much to the many eloquent replies above. I think that a lot of the "boutique" stuff replicates the old respected pieces of kit that perceived wisdom tells us all is superior- the landmark amps pedals or whatever. They are catering for that demand and at the same time making things available that might be otherwise hard to get hold of or simply not worth taking to the "Dog & Vacuum Cleaner" to play a gig. Not a very original thought I know but I don't think too hard of these things as a rule.

[WezV]

for me the term boutique can be applied when a maker is aiming to replicate the best example of something... and possibly even improve on it.

e.g. they shouldnt just be aiming to build something that sounds like any marshall plexi - they should be aiming to sound like the best marshall plexi's... and hopefully they should know the difference!

[Prawnik]

There is definitely that.

As the self-appointed semi-official BKP Forum historian of early CBS-era Fender guitars, I can tell you that Fender produced some truly magical guitars in those days. Fender also made some mediocre guitars that could be turned into nice instruments with a little work, and also some utter dogs made from furniture-grade wood that no amount of tweaking could redeem.

From what they tell me about vintage pedals and the nature of electronics manufacturing then, the situation is the same only ten times more so.

[WezV]

well iirc most electronics components used in anything considered vintage would vary from stated values by about +/- 20%.  if you have every component in an amp that can vary by that much its easy to see why they dont all sound the same.   thats before you factor in age effects or any work that may have been done.

[ailean]

I think what tends to muddy the waters is that whenever there is a high priced market there is someone taking advantage, producing mediocre or good (but not great) gear and giving it a 'boutique' tag to justify the price.

Or am I being cynical and actually they are knocking their socks off, doing the best they can, and it's just not that good?

I'm a cycnic so I'm going with the first statement :)

[Ratrod]

You're talking about GFS, right?

I have to admit they sound pretty good and have some character in there too.

If you never tried BKP, Lollar, TV Jones etc. you might even think you've hit the jackpot. Unfortunately, I've been spoiled by those high end pickup and those GFS pickups just won't do it for me because I know there's something beter.

[Philly Q]

I don't know if Ailean was talking about GFS or not, but I don't think they're really guilty of "bogus boutiquery".

I'd be surprised if anyone is naive enough to expect a genuinely top-class product at that price.  All they've done is design a decent product and get it manufactured cheaply - and by all accounts they've come up with something extremely good for the price.

Same would go for Tonerider (although their pedals actually seem to be giving the boutique manufacturers a pretty good run for their money).  Maybe Irongear too, although I don't know much about them.  :)

[ailean]

I was talking in generalities of human nature, no one specific in mind.