Yet another "which pups for this axe" question...

[BigB]

Hi everyone here

Newcomer here, first post, considering getting a pair of BKP and (you bet) looking for advices... Oh, and yes, I'm not a native english speaker, so please pardon my french !-)

So, I have this guitar that's begging for pups that will do her justice. It's a somewhat uncommon model, a Vox Custom 24 - early 80's MIJ (when Japan was at it's best, and man they really did their best with this one - top level workmanship, perfect finish, and the neck is just a dream to play). It's a going thru hard maple neck, maple sides, rosewood fretboard, very heavy beast. Unplugged, it sounds just like you would expect from an all-maple axe - bright highs, tight low-ends, sharp attacks, lots of sustain and harmonics (pinched harmonics pops out almost by themselves), and a really singing, vocal tone specially when playing between the 7th and 17th frets.

wrt/ electronic, it was obviously designed as a mostly modern (by that time) LP inspired thingie: 2 humbuckers each with it's serie/parallel switch, and a phase inverter switch for the middle position (2 volumes - with treble-bleed caps - and 2 tones pots of course). But I wonder if they did the right choice for the stock pups - it's a pair of DiMarzio X2n. I used to like them when I got this axe (the first real music instrument I owned) 20 years ago and was mostly playing a mix of punk / grunge / fusion / 70s hard rock, but with time I came to almost hate them. Cold, harsh, muddy, barely usable for clean / early breakup crunch, ultracompressed and messy at higher gain, overbassy on the neck, ear-piercing on the bridge... What to say... Yuck :(  The only two things I'd like to keep from the X2n are the sustain and the pinched harmonics - but the guitar already provide this by itself FWIW so I guess it shouldn't be much of a problem...

Now I'm looking for a warmer sound, round (but not muddy) and vocal on the neck, sharp (but not harsh) and tight on the bridge, with the natural tight, dense low-ends, chimey highs and vocal mids of this guitar. 

So here come the usual question: which BKP humbuckers would you recommand that would do justice to (and warm up) this beautiful lady ?

I saw someone on this forum that Tim Mill himself recommends ceramic pups for all-maple guitars (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13618.msg175704#msg175704), but well, there at least a couple one availables here (CS and MM), and it seems (from the aforementioned thread) that alnico might still be an option...

Oh, yes, I forgot: I  play (badly, but that's not the point) almost any kind of rock (with the exception of 50's and modern metal stuff), lots of blues, and sometimes more groovy stuff (soul / funk / fusion,  reggae etc). Also, I'm not specifically looking for a "vintage" typed sound (it's not a vintage 59 LP anyway) - just some warm-yet-sharp blues/rock sound, with both nuances and balls. I'd just like to hear this lady whisper, sing and scream - and I know she could if only she had the right pickups.

TIA

[syr2012]

I always thought that ceramics would sound awful in all-maple, but if Tim says otherwise, than I'll take his word for it. The Painkiller is supposed to be very crunchy, but that could be more powerful mid roar than a crunch. CS might work well for you, I'd consider MM as well though, since the rosewood board might balance things out a bit. BTW, your english is better than that of some native speakers...

welcome to the forum!

[ShotgunInnocence]

I'm in the process of building an all maple guitar (a super strat) myself.  I'll pass along some additional info Tim shared with me.....you can use Alnico OR ceramic pickups in an all maple guitar.  The trick is not to go too hot if you prefer the sound of an Alnico pickup, otherwise your mids will end up "hard" (most pronounced frequency).   Tim told me a Rebel Yell would be the hottest alnico pickup he would recommend for an all maple guitar.  If you want higher gain, and don't mind sacrificing a little warmth in your tone, then the ceramic pickups are supposed to smooth out the mids and tighten the bass up.  Did a little research on that Vox after reading your post.......absolutely GORGEOUS guitar!!! I'm looking forward to hearing some samples in the Players room when you make a selection!   PDT_003

[BigB]

I always thought that ceramics would sound awful in all-maple, but if Tim says otherwise, than I'll take his word for it. The Painkiller is supposed to be very crunchy, but that could be more powerful mid roar than a crunch.

Oops, seems I missed this one in the "ceramic" catagory.

CS might work well for you, I'd consider MM as well though, since the rosewood board might balance things out a bit.

Well, from the descriptions, I'm a bit worried from the "screaming highs" label on both Painkillers and CS - but perhaps is it because of my bad experience with the brittle, ear-piercing highs and harsh high-mids of the X2n. OTHO, the MM are the one with higher output level, and that worries me too - I've had my share of high-output pups and their lack of nuances.

Oh, my, talking about tone is difficult, and I really lack experience with other woods/pups combos - this guitar has been my only one for 20 years (well, make that 5 years really - I almost totally stopped playing music for 15 years and just came back to it 6 month ago), and I didn't have a clue about the influence of all these topics on sound until recently. What triggered my interest and questions about all this was when our 2nd guitarist recently bought a cheap (but still good quality) LP copy with (not that bad AFAICT) vintage-PAF-like humbuckers. We tested it on my Marshall, and well, it sounded way better than my Vox. Duh :(
 

BTW, your english is better than that of some native speakers...

welcome to the forum!

Thanks :-)

[BigB]

I'm in the process of building an all maple guitar (a super strat) myself.  I'll pass along some additional info Tim shared with me.....you can use Alnico OR ceramic pickups in an all maple guitar.  The trick is not to go too hot if you prefer the sound of an Alnico pickup, otherwise your mids will end up "hard" (most pronounced frequency).

Cool. Good thing to know, thanks for sharing.  FWIW, I'm not sure I really want to go back to ceramic pickups (yes, I know, I'm a bit biased here, but there's such a drastic difference between what you'd hope of that guitar when playing it unplugged and what you get from the X2n's output that I guess anyone would end up as disgusted as I am).

  Tim told me a Rebel Yell would be the hottest alnico pickup he would recommend for an all maple guitar.  If you want higher gain, and don't mind sacrificing a little warmth in your tone,  then the ceramic pickups are supposed to smooth out the mids and tighten the bass up.

Ok. I don't care about higher gain, and I really mind sacrifing any warmth  - so I guess this is the clue I needed: let's have a look at low/mid gain alnico pups !-)

  Did a little research on that Vox after reading your post.......absolutely GORGEOUS guitar!!!

Definitly, yes. I played a couple very pricey Les Pauls recently at the local shop, and wrt/ workmanship, finish and playability, they had nothing more to offer. And let's not talk about "budget" models...  I don't doubt a single second that once it'll have the right pups, this guitar will be a killer.

I'm looking forward to hearing some samples in the Players room when you make a selection!   PDT_003

So do I !-)

Thanks again for sharing these informations, I think this will really help me.

[dheim]

Well, from the descriptions, I'm a bit worried from the "screaming highs" label on both Painkillers and CS - but perhaps is it because of my bad experience with the brittle, ear-piercing highs and harsh high-mids of the X2n. OTHO, the MM are the one with higher output level, and that worries me too - I've had my share of high-output pups and their lack of nuances.

painkillers have got a HUGE wall of hi-mids, and so do nailbombs... cold sweats are a bit more on the bright side with "true" highs and less hi-mids. none of them is in any possible way harsh, thin or "screechy"...
from your description i would suggest you a bridge nailbomb and a neck cold sweat.

[syr2012]

Well, from the descriptions, I'm a bit worried from the "screaming highs" label on both Painkillers and CS - but perhaps is it because of my bad experience with the brittle, ear-piercing highs and harsh high-mids of the X2n. OTHO, the MM are the one with higher output level, and that worries me too - I've had my share of high-output pups and their lack of nuances.

painkillers have got a HUGE wall of hi-mids, and so do nailbombs... cold sweats are a bit more on the bright side with "true" highs and less hi-mids. none of them is in any possible way harsh, thin or "screechy"...
from your description i would suggest you a bridge nailbomb and a neck cold sweat.

dheim, you don't think the NB would be too hot for all that maple?

[dheim]

Well, from the descriptions, I'm a bit worried from the "screaming highs" label on both Painkillers and CS - but perhaps is it because of my bad experience with the brittle, ear-piercing highs and harsh high-mids of the X2n. OTHO, the MM are the one with higher output level, and that worries me too - I've had my share of high-output pups and their lack of nuances.

painkillers have got a HUGE wall of hi-mids, and so do nailbombs... cold sweats are a bit more on the bright side with "true" highs and less hi-mids. none of them is in any possible way harsh, thin or "screechy"...
from your description i would suggest you a bridge nailbomb and a neck cold sweat.

dheim, you don't think the NB would be too hot for all that maple?

i don't really know, to be honest... i've never played an all-maple guitar, but when i recently played a maple + mahogany neckthrough guitar i thought that nailbombs would have fitted well! :)

[BigB]

painkillers have got a HUGE wall of hi-mids, and so do nailbombs...

Well, I'm not exactly after hi-mids - I actually have to cut them down a bit (with a small graphical EQ in the fx loop) on my Marshall.

cold sweats are a bit more on the bright side with "true" highs and less hi-mids. none of them is in any possible way harsh, thin or "screechy"...

That would probably better fit my needs - from my experience, it's easier to tame highs than high-mids.

from your description i would suggest you a bridge nailbomb and a neck cold sweat.

Hmmm... The nailbomb being a "real hot" alnico pup,  I'm not sure it would really fit this guitar - at least according to what ShotgunInnocence has shared from The Masters's advices  - and from the description, it looks more like a somewhat metal-oriented pup, when I'm mostly looking for a somewhat less "in your face" tone.

Also, I think (but I might be plain wrong) that having the same model on both positions would be better on this guitar. With the x2n, there's already a (too) drastic tone difference between both positions (which makes it difficult to find a coherent EQ setting - I almost always stick to the middle position so far FWIW). This axe has lots of nuances according to where you pick the strings - something I learned from playing it unplugged for hours when I was to broke to even afford a practice amp -, so I think it really needs a very coherent (and well balanced) pair of pickups to sound right. OTHO, different pup models on neck and bridge may be a good way to get this coherence and balance, so my a priori could as well be an error ?

Would be easier if I could just test each and every model until I find the right setup - but that's not something I can afford  :lol:

[Zaned]

Also, I think (but I might be plain wrong) that having the same model on both positions would be better on this guitar. With the x2n, there's already a (too) drastic tone difference between both positions (which makes it difficult to find a coherent EQ setting - I almost always stick to the middle position so far FWIW). This axe has lots of nuances according to where you pick the strings - something I learned from playing it unplugged for hours when I was to broke to even afford a practice amp -, so I think it really needs a very coherent (and well balanced) pair of pickups to sound right. OTHO, different pup models on neck and bridge may be a good way to get this coherence and balance, so my a priori could as well be an error ?

Would be easier if I could just test each and every model until I find the right setup - but that's not something I can afford  :lol:

Mind you, the neck and bridge versions of the BKP pickups are different. In calibrated sets too  :) For example, the Cold Sweat bridge pickup is ceramic, while the neck is Alnico V. But when they say calibrated, it means that. Both outputwise and in tone, meaning that they have a character that compliment each other. Actually, I think the only ceramic neck pickup is the Painkiller.

-Zaned

[BigB]

Mind you, the neck and bridge versions of the BKP pickups are different. In calibrated sets too  :)

Yeps, I'm aware of this. But :

But when they say calibrated, it means that. Both outputwise and in tone, meaning that they have a character that compliment each other.

which is the whole point, indeed: getting a really coherent pickup pair

For example, the Cold Sweat bridge pickup is ceramic, while the neck is Alnico V.
(...)
 Actually, I think the only ceramic neck pickup is the Painkiller.

Zaned, may I ask where you got these infos ? I didn't find any mention of this on the product description pages...

[Zaned]

Zaned, may I ask where you got these infos ? I didn't find any mention of this on the product description pages...

Same way like you just did, by reading this forum  :)

But the info on neck pickups needs to be put on the product page..

-Zaned

[BigB]

Zaned, may I ask where you got these infos ? I didn't find any mention of this on the product description pages...

Same way like you just did, by reading this forum  :)

But the info on neck pickups needs to be put on the product page..

Ok, I googled and found a couple references about this. Well, this really should be on the product pages, indeed.

Thanks for the info, Zaned  :)

[Zaned]

Ok, I googled and found a couple references about this. Well, this really should be on the product pages, indeed.

Thanks for the info, Zaned  :)

NP!

Also some more info, which you might know or might not now; Nailbomb and Warpig are also available as ceramic models. C-bomb is basically an overwound cold sweat, so it's a bit middier and darker than the CS. As you've already going through the alnico models, I doubt this info is of much value to you. But maybe in the future :D

Have you asked Tim's opinion yet?

-Zaned

[BigB]

Also some more info, which you might know or might not now; Nailbomb and Warpig are also available as ceramic models. C-bomb is basically an overwound cold sweat, so it's a bit middier and darker than the CS. As you've already going through the alnico models, I doubt this info is of much value to you.

Well, I remember I did notice a mention of "C-bomb" somewhere, but failed to properly decipher the acronym, or even spot it as "unusual". So yes, this was still good to know.

wrt/ alnico vs ceramic, I'm afraid I haven't made up my mind yet :-/

It's quite difficult to find reliable informations about the Vox Custom 24 - Vox co. doesn't even mention it anywhere, I wonder if they even remember they once made this model - but it is reported  to have been designed (at least for the electronic part - which as I understand it includes the pups choice ?) by Adrian Legg, who seems to have some knowledge on the topic...  So going for hot ceramic pups might be more 'faithfull' to the designer's intents and insight...

OTHO, my main concern is mostly to end up with something that 1/ helps the unplugged tonal qualities of the lady to show when plugged and 2/ pleases my ears, whatever kind of magnets/winding/hotness it requires.

Now I don't have enough experience with pups / magnets / etc to make educated guesses by myself, and it's hard to correctly describe what I'm looking for, specially in a foreign language. It's definitly not anything metal related, and FWIW I'm a bit fed up with the downsides of high output pickups. I do appreciate a good crunch++ for rock rythm parts and heavy distortion for rock leads (but not something overly aggressive), but there's no need for over-the-top output levels to get there !-)

As I said, I currently tend to tone down the hi-mids and add a bit extra low-mids to get closer to the ToneInMyHead(tm).  I guess I'd need something a bit on the dark side to balance the mostly "bright&tight" nature of the beast. 

So far and from what I gathered, the "standard hi-gain option" for maple-bodied guitar would be MM, CS would be to bright here, and from your description, C-Bomb might be an option too.

When it comes to lower-gain alnico options, I think Emerald or Abraxas could be a good fit (could they ???), but I failed (so far) to find much infos about these models would react in something else than a more standard mahogany/maple LP-like guitar.

I also really liked some youtube sample of the PG Blues - just love that very vocal, singing tone - but here again, it will surely sound quite different in my all-maple Vox.

I considered the Crawlers too but they seem to be too hot (a bit hotter than the RY) for all that maple.

So here I am... Anyone on Emerald, Abraxas or PG Blues for this guitar ? Or should I just stick to MM (or eventually C-Bomb ?) ?

Have you asked Tim's opinion yet?

Nope, not yet. I assume he's a very busy man, so I try to do my homework first - with kind help from you all here, very friendly place while we're at it !-)