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Author Topic: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)  (Read 7594 times)

AndyR

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Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« on: June 28, 2009, 06:22:48 PM »
Although it's BKP heavy, I'm not sure this one works too well as a clip for demonstrating the individual pickups (so if DnL wants to shift it to Time Out or something I won't be upset :D)

I posted the early guide/demo for this project a while back, because it showed off the MQs quite well, albeit with a bit of clipping :roll:. See this thread if you want to hear those: http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17507.0

Here's the final, finished article published on my soundclick:

Sooner or Later: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=912452&songID=7765431.

In the end, the MQs survived for the choruses only - they're the thicker sounding lead parts and crunchy chords on the choruses. One side of the stereo image is neck pickup, the other is bridge.

The Yardbirds are the clean(est) guitars on here - they play all the way through.
They're heavily effected though - very heavily effected for me... Complex delays, and two of them have a very heavy stereo tremolo on them. The Yardbirds are producing most of the jangle and ticking noises. It's mainly bridge pickup, with a little bit of bridge and neck low in the mix. The bridge does an accidental strat impersonation (in a Hank Marvin/Mark Knopfler kind of way) in the minor verse...

My yardbirded custom tele is definitely my most versatile and most used guitar at the moment - it even records sweetly with dead strings!  :lol:

There's also a non-BKP-er (my Danelectro) on here - you can distinguish it clearest in the intro, it's the "rhythm" guitar on the left. It plays like that on and off all the way through. It was a superb sound when I started, but it really p1ssed me off by the end - for me it kinda clashes with the tremolo'd teles and, in my ears, creates a "warble" between them that I don't find entirely to my taste...  Unfortunately, it's about 6 bounces deep in the mix, and I'm not going back to redo them all - the missus says it sounds fine, so it's fine :lol:

And there are two accoustics hammering away, all the way through, almost in time with each other and the track...

And, of course, there's the massed choirs of Tootynge hiding all the lovely guitars... :lol:

And it was all done (tracking, mixing, and mastering) on the tiny little BOSS MBR...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 06:24:57 PM by AndyR »
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FernandoDuarte

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 10:25:30 PM »
Sounds good! :D

But I guess that it alive, with more "raw" tones and singing would be really good!

AndyR

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 11:06:00 PM »
Yeah, I was wondering that while I was learning and recording it, Fernando.

This recording is the most "processed" I've ever done. My last band would have played this if it had existed, and a band demo of it would have been a lot simpler and more raw country/blues playing (think TP and the Heartbreakers - that's what it sounded like when I started it a month back). For a "studio recording", I think this arrangement is better - or at least I hope it is! (Waste of a month otherwise!! :lol:)

The lead vocal would really benefit from having the song gigged a few times, though - it would sound more natural then, not a lot, but the timing would be slicker...
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FernandoDuarte

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2009, 03:37:41 PM »
Sounds damn good! I found better than the MQ only one (listened after your post), so your month shall not be wasted at all :lol:

Philly Q

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2009, 10:52:02 PM »
Bloody hell Andy, that's great!  I didn't concentrate much on the guitar sounds in particular, but I'm truly impressed at the way you've created the whole arrangement, especially the vocals, and put it all together.  So professional sounding!

It does make me think I should stop pissing about with guitars and try to find something I can actually be good at...
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Ian Price

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2009, 10:58:31 PM »
It does make me think I should stop pissing about with guitars and try to find something I can actually be good at...

I'm good at pissing about with guitars!

Great song Andy, keep them coming!
I think I hate being indecisive.

FernandoDuarte

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2009, 12:48:49 AM »
Yeah Philly he's great, I've said him to make a band!

But you, Philly, had to make a better value of yourself... perhaps a little threatening will help: Are you stop to cry about you OR SHALL I CUT YOUR LEG AND PUT IT IN A PLACE IT WASN'T MEANT TO BE IN???? :P :lol:

Philly Q

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 10:09:04 AM »
But you, Philly, had to make a better value of yourself... perhaps a little threatening will help: Are you stop to cry about you OR SHALL I CUT YOUR LEG AND PUT IT IN A PLACE IT WASN'T MEANT TO BE IN???? :P :lol:

Ow, sounds painful.  I think.  :lol:

But seriously, I could never do that in a million years.  "Here's a drum pattern, and here's a chord progression, here's a bassline, here's a melody to go over the top, now if I harmonise this bit...".   I couldn't do any of those things individually, never mind making them all fit together. 

I know I have a tendency to put myself down, but I genuinely have no concept at all of how that works.  I'm sure it's possible to learn some of it in a theoretical sense, but most people in pop/rock music seem to do it intuitively - which just amazes me.
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AndyR

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 02:13:02 PM »
I've just been writing about stuff like this over on the MBR forums...

Philly, get yourself an MBR, join the forum, start fiddling about, start posting MP3s - you will grow!! Even folks that feel like you do are posting stuff, and are amazed when everyone goes "sounds really good, try this, try that, etc..." :)

However, right at the moment the forumites are trying to get the structure changed to "make it easier to find stuff" - and I'm worried that it might upset the magical balance they have achieved where people, like me, overly confident in our abilites, and people (like you?) who undervalue their abilities, are all getting involved together to the general good of all!

This is interesting:

but most people in pop/rock music seem to do it intuitively - which just amazes me.

The amazing bit, for me, is that you think anyone can do it intuitively - some found it easier than others, but they all had to work bluddy hard. Even people we look down on didn't suddenly wake up one day as "Jimmy/Doris BigStar-In-Waiting" - they put a lot of effort in to learn how to do it.

And the biggest step they all had to make was one day going "oh all right, I'll put meself on the line, they'll all laugh, but, at least I'll have proved I'm cr@p once and for all..."

And, instead of laughing, people liked it...

Oh yeah - and thanks for the approbation about the song, folks (I forgot what thread I was in), even now, I still need reassurance that I'm as good as I think I am! :lol:



« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 03:13:31 PM by AndyR »
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Philly Q

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2009, 03:30:14 PM »
This is interesting:

but most people in pop/rock music seem to do it intuitively - which just amazes me.

The amazing bit, for me, is that you think anyone can do it intuitively - some found it easier than others, but they all had to work bluddy hard. Even people we look down on didn't suddenly wake up one day as "Jimmy/Doris BigStar-In-Waiting" - they put a lot of effort in to learn how to do it.

No, no, no, I didn't mean to imply it wasn't hard work!!  :o

What I meant was, I presume it's possible to break down well-known songs in theoretical terms - such-and-such is a common chord progression in pop music, the bassline follows the root note, this "resolves" to that, this key is the relative minor of that one (whatever, I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm making this shite up....)

BUT...

(I presume) most pop/rock musicians don't actually know any of that theory.  They learn by hours of playing, trial-and-error that something works or it doesn't.... then they go and try something a bit different and figure out what works with that.  So it's a process of "I don't know why this works but it does".  You even get world-famous musicians who say they don't know what a scale is or what key they're playing in - but it doesn't worry them!!!!!  That's what I meant by intuitive.

My mind doesn't work like that, I can't accept that something "just works", I have to know WHY!  And even if I could dissect any song in theoretical terms, and reproduce it, I still don't think I'd have the ability to use that knowledge to come up with something original.

It's not just a lack of confidence in my abilities (although heaven knows if there's anything to lack confidence in, I'll find it  :wink: ).  I genuinely I have no idea how people can do this.  And yes it's true, I haven't really tried.  But I wouldn't know where to start.


(What is MBR, by the way?  :oops: )
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

AndyR

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2009, 04:52:41 PM »
Sorry, MBR = Boss Micro BR Palmtop. :lol:

It's a digital four track recorder, with a usable on board condensor mic (the guide vocal on the early version was recorded with it, the accoustics on the finished product were), line in, headphone/line out.

It has 8 virtual tracks for each of the four tracks - so bouncing for sub mixes enables creation of something that sounds like this.

It has all the usual level, pan and reverb controls on track play back.

It has a huge raft of "studio quality" processors for mixing and mastering, including parametric EQ, and 3 band compression (with a load of presets).

It has a load of guitar amp simulators (don't use those myself, but they work).

It has a rhythm section with a large library of patterns (can't edit the patterns) that you can combine to create drum arrangements. Several drumkits. The rhythm playback (stereo) does not use any tracks unless you want it to.

It's FAB and costs around £170 at the moment. (The Boss PSU is extra - gits - and you'll need a bigger SD card - and a USB card reader would be a lot faster for PC transfers...)

And it fits in your shirt pocket!!

This song was done entirely on the MBR. All I needed was guitars, bass, and I used my Vox Tonelab (for guitar amps) and POD XTLive (for bass amp). The only "cheat" was I use a Rode NT1000 for vocals, which meant they had to go through my mixing desk for the phantom power, and I always put a dbx compressor/gate on the track insert to control the peaks and external noise when I'm singing.

On song construction stuff - it's all really simple and follows superb rules that you would love if you found an explanation that suited you. I'm the same as you if it wasn't rule based, I wouldn't have been able to learn it otherwise.

But I did start from being able to sing a song I heard on the radio or a record - all I had to do was read the chord boxes and strum 1-2-3-4 while I sang. I could feel it was right, cos it sounded right. But I was very interested to understand why the chords worked like they did, and I kinda picked that up as I tried more songs.

King of the Road was the first song I learnt (C, F and G). Greystone Chapel the same week (G, C and D).
I noticed that if I played Greystone with C, F and G instead, I had to sing higher, but it was still right. I noticed that D leads into G leads into C leads into F. I went searching and found F leads into Bb into Ab, etc, etc, into E into A into D into G into... hang on a minute, we've gone round in a circle! I figured out that I could use this circle that "I'd discovered" to transpose Beatles and Bee Gees songs down so that I could sing them. After a while I didn't have to write on the sheet music, I learnt the relationships and could do it at sight.

I couldn't play barre chords, so I started looking for easy ways of playing chords - ended up with knowing how to construct my own chords anywhere on the neck (and how to omit bass notes- very important for playing in a band sometimes).

It's all been logical progressions, and I sped it all up by writing songs the minute I could string three or four chords together.

Really early on (14 or so) I discovered what I called the "Beatles" chord - Bb. If a song's in C, the "standard chords" are C, F, and G. The Beatles kept chucking a Bb in!! The reason it works is cos of that circle I'd found (it's actually "the circle of fifths") - Bb is taking you and the listener off to another key so you can flirt with the other key and drop back: C-Bb-F-C

Take it to the manly guitarist key (E), and you've got E-D-A... (Sympathy for the Devil, Midnite Rambler, Let me entertain you (Robbie Williams), literally MILLIONS of rock songs)

Then I discovered the Bee Gees went one further - Eb!!! Same principle, but even more exciting C-F-Eb-Bb-C.

Then stir in the relative minors Am (C) Dm (F) Em (G), as well, and the 7ths - and you can do what you like when warbling mindlessly over it...

You find the "rules" and break them, and then one day you find there are perfectly good "classical" reasons why your "ignore the rules" worked. Do you know why "power chords" work? Eg "E5" - it's because there's only two notes in the chord, the "root" E and the "5th" B - there might be some repeats of these, but basically E and B... there's no "3rd" to indicate whether it's major (G#) or minor (G). The effect this has on western ears is "no resolution" to happy/sad - so, play them soft and they're spooky, play them hard, and they're stately and powerful, play them sneaky with a Tony Iommi sound and they're threatening...

It's all logical cause and effect, every bit of it - but because there's so much of it, we have the freedom to be creative with it :)

I'll stop there, I wanna get the tube home!! :lol:

If you want, go and look at this thread http://bossbr.net/community/micro-br-b65/sooner-or-later-writingarranging-demo/0/ I posted how I wrote the song and recorded the original demo version. It's all scientifically contructed :lol:
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 04:57:13 PM by AndyR »
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38thBeatle

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2009, 07:17:43 PM »
Cool stuff Andy.
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Denim n Leather

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2009, 08:52:05 PM »
Quote
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Balls! Won't play the song!!!

Philly Q

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2009, 10:13:34 PM »
Andy - thanks for the long post above.   :)

I actually understood all of it (well, almost, you lost me a bit on the chord stuff).   And it's encouraging that there are other people who "need" to know how and why these things work!

I read your BossBR thread too.  You make it sound almost simple  :lol: ... in a totally mind-boggling way.  But as the guy said "the process counts for nothing unless there's songwriting and musical talent sitting behind it".
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AndyR

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Re: Finished song - Yardbirds and MQs (and the rest!)
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2009, 09:11:16 AM »
Quote
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The site administrator has been notified. Thank you!
Balls! Won't play the song!!!

? I'm at work now, so can't get to it - sounds like they have problems every now and then, I was getting that error a while back trying to upload an image to go with a song. So I've given up trying to load images with them :lol: (the music's where it's at ma-an :roll:)

And Philly, I was thinking about this all last night - that process I went through that I described above, I was 14-15, and I have to admit that it was "intuitive" that I took everything apart like that. It just seemed so "obvious" to me that if someone else could do it, then so could I, and I could "figure it out for myself"...

When someone tries to teach me stuff (or I try to learn it from a book) it often doesn't go in, but when I get an inkling of what the rules might be, and what they might do for me, I'm after it immediately, taking it apart seeing how it fits together.

Another thing - I've never been one for "perfection" when copying/covering other people's stuff. They might be playing some Adimsus42#7 chord - but if Am sounds close, er, we might as well use it! I'll steal what I can and try and build a house out of it...

I've watched so many people get bogged down in learning "Flashy-Shred-Man's" latest solo trying to get it note and nuance perfect - and they never seem to get round to doing anything else. I've never really tried it - I can't see what that might do for me personally (OK, I can, and it's why I can't play stunning melodic and interesting guitar solos :lol:). I did learn the Bohemian Rhapsody solo once, but I found the "tenor" guitar part under it (or is it under verse 2? certainly was live) far more interesting for taking apart and discovering how it fits the chords, what it does to your head, and why :D. I was stunned when I noticed it and roughly figured it out - I've used that type of guitar part an awful lot ever since...
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