Is £2000 for an amp "painfully expensive"?

[AndyR]

Not everyone mics up though JPF - we backline so the PA route isn't an option.

Ideally you want a parallel loop, with adjustable send and return levels, and run the effects return with no dry signal ie 100% effected.

Indeed.  That's what I would need  ;)

TF/JPF - do all modern effects/stomps do a wet-only 100% affected output? (I haven't used one for years :lol:)

Thinking about it, it also means you'd stick your delays, reverbs, and modulation effects here, and the boosts/overdrives, compressors(?), wahs, etc in front of the amp?

I won't enter into the "but smaller amps don't sound the same" argument :lol: Oh alright, I will a little: I believe they can but it depends what parameters you're trying to satisfy all at the same time - front of house, on stage, etc - and the quality of the foldback available to you with the PA... if one is used to using a big f@ck-off stack jobbie, there'll be some compromises that the player has to get used to initially, but in the long run I believe nfe is right - if the guitarist gets used to it and gets enough "vibes" so he/she can perform, then the overall effect for the punter will be better...

I can even hear Philly going "wow, I can leave my earplugs at home!!" (apologies if you don't use them Philly :lol: - I used to always take cotton-wool to gigs)

[jpfamps]

TF/JPF - do all modern effects/stomps do a wet-only 100% affected output? (I haven't used one for years :lol:)

Well pro effects units will (Lexicon etc). As for pedals, I'm sure some do......

Thinking about it, it also means you'd stick your delays, reverbs, and modulation effects here, and the boosts/overdrives, compressors(?), wahs, etc in front of the amp?

Yes, I would recommend using modulation fx in the loop (as you would do on a mixing desk). Gain related fx, boost, compression etc can be in front of the amp to help drive the pre-amp, or can be use in an insert (ie a series fx "loop").

I won't enter into the "but smaller amps don't sound the same" argument :lol: Oh alright, I will a little: I believe they can but it depends what parameters you're trying to satisfy all at the same time - front of house, on stage, etc - and the quality of the foldback available to you with the PA... if one is used to using a big f@ck-off stack jobbie, there'll be some compromises that the player has to get used to initially, but in the long run I believe nfe is right - if the guitarist gets used to it and gets enough "vibes" so he/she can perform, then the overall effect for the punter will be better...

Well the guitarist in one of the bands I play in uses a Tele through 7W amp we built for him and gets a great Who/ Lizzy rock sound (especially when he plays the write notes!), which we mic up. The amp has a 12" speaker (G12H), which helps a lot. Eventually we will probably make him a 15W amp to give a little more clean headroom and put less through the PA.

You are going to struggle to get a good rock sound using an 8" speaker.

[Will]

Since this is turning into an effects loop thread..
Is it at all possible to run FX after the head and before the cab. Surely that would be ideal if you are relying on power amp distortion.

Does the pedal / unit creat a different resistance?
Is the signal likely to destroy the FX unit?

[FELINEGUITARS]

Is it at all possible to run FX after the head and before the cab. Surely that would be ideal if you are relying on power amp distortion.

Does the pedal / unit creat a different resistance?
Is the signal likely to destroy the FX unit?

You cant run FX between amp and speaker - will damage FX and maybe amp too

Closest way you can do this is what EVH used to do
Use a PAlmer loadbox/speaker sim to take out a line level signal and pass that through an FX rack and then through a separate power amp and speakers
Think he ended up with his main amp and 4x12 dry and direct and the tapped off FX signal going through an H&H 800w power amp and through two more 4x121 for the wet signal
That way he kept his core tone really strong and added FX for colour without diminishing the core tone

Brian May always has always used separate amps for the echos from his echoplex/delay unit to avoid intermodulation distortion

[Will]

Ah, thanks. I thought it was an EVH thing, just I seemed to think it was an all wet signal.
Sounds expensive though

[AndyR]

Well the guitarist in one of the bands I play in uses a Tele through 7W amp we built for him and gets a great Who/ Lizzy rock sound (especially when he plays the write notes!), which we mic up. The amp has a 12" speaker (G12H), which helps a lot. Eventually we will probably make him a 15W amp to give a little more clean headroom and put less through the PA.

You are going to struggle to get a good rock sound using an 8" speaker.

Yeah, my reasoning was based on what I used to use live. It's a 50w m/v valve amp, but it's 1x12 combo (open backed).

For Vocal-PA gigs it was plenty - although I have to admit (for the stack & 2x12 guys) it could sound a bit boxy out front if I couldn't get a good position. We usually managed to tweak it enough to get it acceptable, though.

Our preferred method was in bigger gigs where everything was mic'd. Really early on I learnt that I needed to put the amp at the side of the stage, pointing across the stage, even behind the PA stack if possible. That meant my backline was contributing as little as possible to out front, giving the engineer more control. It also meant we needed little if any guitar in the foldback.

It might not have looked very rock n roll, but out front it sounded HUGE and very rock n roll :lol:

With what I've learnt since about amps etc, I believe a 15W with no master would have done me fine :D (probably even the Vocal-PA jobs)

I don't think I've ever played through an 8" speaker, but I did use a combo with a 10" (a Peterson P120G - anyone else ever used one of them?), it was OK live, but enough to show me I wanted 12".

[hunter]

Is it at all possible to run FX after the head and before the cab. Surely that would be ideal if you are relying on power amp distortion.

Does the pedal / unit creat a different resistance?
Is the signal likely to destroy the FX unit?

You cant run FX between amp and speaker - will damage FX and maybe amp too

Closest way you can do this is what EVH used to do
Use a PAlmer loadbox/speaker sim to take out a line level signal and pass that through an FX rack and then through a separate power amp and speakers
Think he ended up with his main amp and 4x12 dry and direct and the tapped off FX signal going through an H&H 800w power amp and through two more 4x121 for the wet signal
That way he kept his core tone really strong and added FX for colour without diminishing the core tone

Brian May always has always used separate amps for the echos from his echoplex/delay unit to avoid intermodulation distortion

that's pretty much what this guy had built in his HO Attenuator/reamp box: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=417781

Basically an attenuator that reamps the attenuated signal with a SS amp, plus a mixable FX amp for running a small 2x100W SS W/D rig

[nfe]

Use smaller amps, mic everything, and make use of your PA, if you do so and use a decent PA, then without exception, your band will sound better.

But smaller amps don't sound the same.  I can't do a YC/DC? gig with an Epi valve junior.  Sorry.

I'm sure your metal guys won't switch away from Mesa and Matamps too?

No they likely wont, but they're still pretty much always mic'd up. Even if there isn't much of it in the mix, you're at least getting a proper spread so the crowd can actually hear what's going on rather than just vocals, one guitar a hint of bass and cymbals. Plus, the day I find a band who can get a decent balance and mix going on without having the guitars, bass and at least some drums through the PA, I'll buy you another Modern Eagle.

Bands using just a vocal PA and relying on backline for everything else, in my experience, usually sound abysmal.

Oh,and on the smaller amps don't sound the same bit. No, they don't. But smaller amps with a decent mix will ALWAYS sound better than bigger amps mixed badly. It's about what sounds best for the punter overall. Not what sounds best for the player in isolation. Or it should be.

[Dmoney]

Bands using just a vocal PA and relying on backline for everything else, in my experience, usually sound abysmal.

sometimes thats all you can do. you can turn up to a venue and your lucky if they have 1 mic with their PA let alone 2 or 3 or more. in my experience, its down to the band to make the most of what they have in a situation like that. Its doesnt have to spoil a good show.

[nfe]

Bands using just a vocal PA and relying on backline for everything else, in my experience, usually sound abysmal.

sometimes thats all you can do. you can turn up to a venue and your lucky if they have 1 mic with their PA let alone 2 or 3 or more. in my experience, its down to the band to make the most of what they have in a situation like that. Its doesnt have to spoil a good show.

You're talking about original bands, Dave is talking about pub bands turning up with their own PA (I presume they have their own PA, anyway, I don't know many cover bands who don't use their own).

In saying that, I've very, very rarely turned up at an original gig who didn't have the facility to mic a whole band outwith squat gigs. But then I've been drilled into being ultra professional about that stuff and having full tech specs and backline on contracts well before the gig.

[dave_mc]

But smaller amps don't sound the same. 

agreed. this "use smaller amps" paradigm shift is almost as dangerous as the old "you have to use 100 watts if you're a pro" philosophy. For some types of music and sounds you need that bigger amp, even if you can't turn it up all the way.

Don't ge me wrong, if you can find a smaller amp which still does the sounds you want, and your current amp is too loud, by all means go for it. Just it's not guaranteed that it will sound the same, in fact I'd be surprised if it did.

fair enough if the smaller amp still sounds better in the mix, as nfe said, but if it doesn't do the type of tone you want, will it really sound better in the mix? I dunno.

[Tomcaster]

Definately worth it. I ordered a Vox AC30 replica from David Petersen. Sounds soo much better than anything Vox produces at the moment. Play the normal channel with my Red Special wooow. Brilliant channel through my Strat is to die for.

[HTH AMPS]

I'm with Dave on this one, there is a grunt and weight to your tone with bigger amps that is just not available with lower wattage amps.  I'm a 100w head/4x12  type of player and like the tone/feel I get from this type of setup even when I'm using the amp quite clean and getting the OD from a pedal. 

However I do still love the tone of small class A amps and acknowledge that cranking these amps is more practical if you're the type of player who wants all their OD from the output stage.  The problem is, trying to gig with a 10w amp is not a good idea in a rock band with a loud drummer, thats just not going to cut (even if we're only talking stage volume).  I have plans to build a 30w parallel single ended (SE) amp for smaller gigs so I can get that sweet SE tone at decent volumes.

[MDV]

A modified question

Is £2000 too much for an amp that you've heard clips of, liked a lot, heard descriptions of that are right up your street, but never played or heard in person?

[Twinfan]

Not in the scenario you've described.  You've heard clips, descriptions suit etc so it's very likely to be a match for you.