New pickups for a '90s Les Paul Classic

[Tsetse]

Hi there!

I'm new to this forum, this being my first post, so please
bear with me if I ask some stupid questions. Additionally,
English is not my native language.

I would like to introduce myself first: My name is Stephan,
I've been playing guitar for 16 years and I recently got into a
new band after not having played actively in a band for the last
5 or 6 years.

Well, my taste in tone (and music) has changed a
lot over the years and so I'm gradually changing my equipment
to find new tones with my new band.
My last band was pretty much about really heavy music,
and I used to play my good old Les Paul
Classic with its stock pups (ceramics, 496R / 500T) through a
Mesa Dual Rectifier with matching 4X12 cab. For the music I made
back then, that was quite a good combination.

Recently I got myself an old Fender Twin Reverb, a Tele '52 reissue and plan to sell
the Mesa to get myself something AC-30-ish for my overdriven tones.
The Tele does fine with the Twin and AC-30s (and clones), but the
Les Paul pups are just much too hot and are severely lacking in
clarity and definition, so I'm slowly losing interest in that guitar,
which really is a shame, because it's a fine instrument.

My new band does some alternative rock, '70s influenced with
the occasional experimental stuff.
I need really clean tones (which is the reason I got the Twin Reverb)
and some overdriven tones up to distorted sounds (but not in a metal
kind of way).

To make matters short, I'm in the market for new pickups.
What I'm looking for:
-new humbuckers
-MUCH less output than the ceramics
-much more clarity
-a more defined low end (especially with the neck pickup)
-clear string separation when playing overdriven chords.

What I don't want:
-P-90s. At least not in this guitar. Generally I like them a lot, but still I
don't want single coil sound on this instrument.
-woodwork done on this guitar.
-change the overall look of the instrument, the stock pups are black and
don't have covers on them. It's an LP Classic in Cinnamon Burst with yellowish
binding and scratchplate, so there is already enough to catch the eye without
shiny pickup covers.
-metal sounds.
-fancy pickup wirings. The three standard positions and sounds are more than
enough for me.

My Les Paul sounds quite balanced, it is neither a very bright
nor an exceptionally dark sounding instrument (when played without an amp).

So, my questions are:
-What would you recommend, considering what I stated above and my taste in amps?
At the moment, I'm looking at the Mules but am open to other suggestions. Has anyone
of you any experience with a Les Paul with BKPs through Twin Reverbs and / or AC-30s (clones)?

-Which options should I choose when ordering a pair of humbuckers in the shop?
Spacing: 50mm should be the right spacing for the LP, right?
Conductors: Braided 2 - is that the correct option for the standard LP wiring?
Leg: Long (1/2") - would that be correct?
Last but not least, what about potted or unpotted coils? Which one should I go for? Where is
the difference?

Thanks in advance,
Stephan

[BigB]

Hi Tsetse and welcome here.

Just a very short answer - but don't worry, regulars should jump in and post more answers and suggestions than you can dream of  - to finally advise you to AskTim(tm) :lol:

The Mules are very canonical PAF like buckers, so I'd say you can't go wrong with them if you want canonical LP tones. Now there might be other options to consider too - BKPs are good at staying clean and articulate even in the "hotter" range.

You should not need any woodwork in your case - these are pretty standards pups and guitar - and you can of course get your new pups in black, uncovered - have a look at the options on the online shop. Now wrt/ wiring options, the 4-braided options comes pre-wired for "normal" wiring, so if you finally go for some hotter model, you should consider getting them 4-braided in case you change your mind someday.

IIRC long-legs is right for LP, but eventually double-check it. I think there are some answers in the FAQ wrt/ this and other available options, but here again, double-check with Tim before ordering.

And now it's time for the traditional advice: drop a mail (or phone call) to Tim, the guy is really helpfull, and seems to have some mind-reading ability when it comes to pup choice  :lol:

[BigB]

Oh, and yes, I forgot - wrt/ potted/unpotted options, there are a couple hints on this forum:

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4708.msg58224#msg58224
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4708.msg58230#msg58230

[Tsetse]

Hi BigB, thanks for the welcome and your posts have been
very helpful! Seems like I'm really set on some BKPs in the near(est) future.

Also thanks for the links regarding the potted / unpotted option, I really didn't know
the first thing about that before you posted your reply!
I'll also make sure to double-check everything before ordering.

With regard to the Mules being canonical PAF like buckers for canonical LP sounds, like you said:
I'm not really stuck on these, but I do know
that I want to move away from anything with extremely high output because I don't do
hard & heavy stuff any more and those stock ceramics even drive my Twin Reverb into
some kind of (unpleasant, unwanted) overdrive even at very reasonable volume levels.
Plus they really colour the natural tone of my LP.

As a counter-example: When I play my Tele w/ stock pups through the Twin Reverb (or many other amps),
I am able to relate the dry sound of the guitar to what's coming out of the speakers, if I'm still making sense.
It still sounds like one and the same guitar. When I play both guitars without amplification, they are
of course different in sound, but still sound great in their own rights (they are both quite balanced sounding
instruments).

The LP, however, sounds completely different when amplified and the dynamics also aren't much to brag about.
I never realized that so much when playing heavily distorted, scooped-mids, aggressive kind of stuff.
In that scenario imo you need something to push the amp really hard while more dynamics or a
more "open" kind of sound make the guitar somewhat uncontrollable and the sound messy and uneven
(in a band context).

Now it seems I'm looking for the opposite: Something that is able to let the acoustic sound of the
guitar shine through, something that doesn't push the amp so hard, something that doesn't compress the
signal so much, something clear, "open" sounding and highly dynamic. Plus I need something that doesn't have
like four times the output of my Tele, because at the moment because of the extreme difference in output
(I'm talking "vintage" single coils vs. "hot ceramic" humbuckers here) it is near impossible to switch between both
guitars in live situations. EQ'ing is by far the lesser problem when switching from the Tele to the LP, but I can't
use the full volume range of the LP in combination with my Twin Reverb, because the clean sound really gets ugly there.

So I'm not chasing some particular sound I've heard, but the Mules just jumped at me, judging by their description,
the reviews I've read so far and their specs (comparatively low output et al) as shown on the website. Like I said,
I'm pretty much open to other pickup suggestions as well.

I didn't even know that it was possible to get in touch with someone from BKP, so thanks for that hint
as well. I'm still very much interested in what other forum users / customers have in store experience-wise, especially from those with similar guitar / amp setups or similar tastes in music.

[BigB]

Hi BigB, thanks for the welcome and your posts have been
very helpful! Seems like I'm really set on some BKPs in the near(est) future.

From experience, you shouldn't regret it. 

My "story" is kinda similar to yours - I had (still have of course) this nice guitar, a Vox Custom 24, something like an all-maple going-thru neck LP-like (think of a way much brighter and tighter LP), which was stock mounted with DiMarzio X2Ns - the super-brootalz over-the-top ceramic pups, and certainly not something to put in this wood. I used to like them some 20 years ago, but in the end just couldn't stand them no more - seems like they only showed the worst side of the guitar, and certainly none of it's true qualities (and I did play this guitar unplugged quite a lot). So I started looking for possible replacements, heard more than it's share of good things about BKPs, posted here, then asked Tim, blindly followed his advice - heck, this guy really knows what he's talking about - and I couldn't be happier, it's just unf****ngbelievable how fantastic these pups are and how well they fit in this particular guitar.  The guitar now really shines, I have all the nice wood tone, and then some - airy, breathy, articulate, chimey and bity yet warm on the bridge, anything from soft to raunchy, rounded but with a nice upper-mid 'piqué' that cuts thru on the neck, able to do anything from jazz to brit blues  to 60's almost ricky tones to modern hard-core heavy riffs, with always an incredible clarity and definition, lots of dynamic and responsivness, and tons of sustain. And now, these are not Mules, it's a Crawlers set - so something already quite "hot" wrt/ output level. 

I didn't even know that it was possible to get in touch with someone from BKP, so thanks for that hint
as well.

Tim really rocks - he obviously loves what he his doing, and he's also and first a damn good guitar player. FWIW, the moto here is "when in doubt, ask Tim, and go for whatever he says" - and really, he will try his best to help you get the tone _you_ want - as long as you manage to explain what you want, of course  :lol:   

[shaman]

hi, and welcome!!I have a Classic with Crawlers-I wanted a Neil Schon/Lukather type lead tone thru my Boogie 2C+ amps...they do the job!bottom line:contact Tim-he has ALWAYS nailed the tone I was looking for-the pots,caps,etc will all play into the equation of course-Tim will steer you in the right direction-keep us posted :)

[Tsetse]

Thanks again to both of you!

So you convinced me, I'll contact Tim first thing tomorrow and see
what advice he can give me!

@BigB:

and really, he will try his best to help you get the tone _you_ want - as long as you manage to explain what you want, of course 

That would be the hardest part, I guess  :lol:
BTW, really nice guitar you have there, I believe one of my old teachers used to have one of those, played and sounded wonderful.

My "story" is kinda similar to yours

Indeed seems to be. The thing is, I would NEVER part with that guitar. I bought it new in '92 or so (after having
played an Ibanez with active pups so that is where I came from) and it is still my go-to guitar when writing stuff and for most of my practicing as well. It's just that the pups do nothing to translate its sound to what I own / have in mind amp-wise and I really don't look forward anymore to taking it to a session with my band, so most of the time now it's the Tele.

@shaman: Pots and caps are completely new territory for me, I don't know the first thing about how those influence the sound. Alright, I know what turning the volume and tone pots will do...  :)
As for the crawlers: Yes, Boogies seem to like those higher output humbuckers pretty much and LPs in general (at least the Recto does), and you can sure get some quality sounds out of them. I'd be looking for something else from Mesa right now - the Recto has never let me down in some 12 or 13 years I've owned and used it, so I'm quite fond of their build quality- but they've grown way too expensive around here. My Recto + 4x12 would now cost about twice as much new as I paid for it (which already was a lot of money at the time).

-keep us posted

Will do. I had planned to have new pups installed at around Christmas, because I really want a "new" LP for Christmas :), so I'm going to write what Tim will recommend to me and how the new pups will sound. Really looking
forward to them.

[shaman]

cheers-the Classic comes with those high output ceramic pups...I dunno if all come with 250k pots or 500k pots, but mine had 250k-  humbuckers are traditionally 500k pots-single coils-250k  -the 500k vol. pot,for instance, sounds a little brighter than the 250k, and there is greater treble roll off with the higher value pots-
capacitors used ..lower cap value =less treble rolloff/vice versa
-I changed my pots to 500k when I went to the Crawlers/yours may already have 500k pots in it/if you can use a multi meter, it is easy to test
...to give further example..I have a LP Custom that is just bright bright bright!!I use 300k pots and put in higher value capacitors ,and the treble is tamed
-it would be helpful to Tim to know, but he is a magic man!!He already knows !mine was altered by the time I bought it,so I am not sure what pots Gibby used in the '90 Classics...what year is it,exactly?

[Gizmo]

Hi Tsetse,

I own a les paul classic from around 2000-2001. I had the same issue as you. I didnt like the ceramic pups.

I liked the sound of the mules and after listening to many clips i bought a mule neck and a black dog bridge pickup. I would highly recommend them. The blackdog is a slightly hotter pickup but it is still a classic PAF sound.

I also upgraded the electronics which included a bumblebee capacitor which is a replica of a les paul 1959 type electronics. They are about £30 and help to create the classic PAF sound.

You wont be dissappointed with Mules.

I have played Crawlers as well. If you want classic rock and clear sounds, at a medium "hotness" they are very good and clear. I am planning on getting some for my PRS mccarty.

Hope you find something you enjoy

[BigB]

@BigB:

and really, he will try his best to help you get the tone _you_ want - as long as you manage to explain what you want, of course 

That would be the hardest part, I guess  :lol:

Well, this no one else can do for you  :?

BTW, really nice guitar you have there, I believe one of my old teachers used to have one of those, played and sounded wonderful.

Thanks. It's indeed a damn good guitar - specially now it has the right pups  :lol:  It's also very uncommon - I never saw another one in real life.

My "story" is kinda similar to yours

Indeed seems to be. The thing is, I would NEVER part with that guitar.

Neither would I sell my beloved Vox.

@shaman: Pots and caps are completely new territory for me, I don't know the first thing about how those influence the sound. Alright, I know what turning the volume and tone pots will do...  :)

Shaman already explained the influence of pots values.

The caps are what - together with the tone pot - make the low-pass filter that rolls of your trebles. The value AND the type (ceramic, paper in oil, etc) of the cap are important too. The value (with the value of the tone pot) impact the cut-off frequency - a higher value will have a lower cut-off frequency, so it will cut more trebles.

Typically, one uses 0.022uf for humbuckers and 0.047uf for single coils, but depending on your pups, guitar and tastes, it might be worth experimenting with different values. FWIW, on my Vox, I finally settled on a 0.033uf cap for the bridge (very bright guitar so I had to tame it a bit), and a 0.015uf for the neck (wanted to have a bit more "headroom" here ). 

Also, the volume pot has some influence on tone too (since they are inter-connected), so when you turn the volume down, it tends to roll a bit of the trebles too. Some manufacter (and some players) add what is called a "treble-bleed" cap to "avoid" this, but as anything that is part of the circuit, it has some side-effects too - the more common being rolling down the _bass_ when turning the volume down. As far as I'm concerned, I removed the treble-bleeds from all my guitars.

As a last point: not all caps sound alike. Cheap ceramic caps - the one you'll find on most guitars - are really not good for this application.  Paper in oil (PIO) caps are considered the best sounding but can be a bit expansive (from $10 to more than $30) and while better than ceramics they don't necessarily deserve such a price tag - hopefully, you can find some more affordable russian ones on the net (I got mines for =~ 4€ each).

[Zaned]

Hi,

don't rule out Stormy Mondays either; underwound PAFs. You can get them with Alnico IV magnets if you want to make to bottom a little tighter. Well, you definitely won't go wrong with the Mules either..

-Zaned

[Tsetse]

@shaman:

so I am not sure what pots Gibby used in the '90 Classics...what year is it,exactly?

Oh, I guess I made a typo in my earlier post, I didn't get it in '92, but at the end of '95, which according to
the Gibson website, is also the year it was made.

@all: Thanks for explaining the effects of different pots / caps, I really appreciate the help. Cutoff frequency - low pass filter - check - I understand it now. I've dabbled with synths before, so I've got quite a clear idea of those things, it just never occured to me to think in those terms when dealing with guitars, although it's really quite obvious... well, I guess I'm just a little slow sometimes. :lol:
The price tag for some good capacitors (if needed) or anything else is not that big of a concern for me, because this guitar really means a lot to me and I'm willing to invest into it, if it will help in making it sound good to my ears again.
As I've stated earlier, this guitar is a keeper and except for the pickup issue, still the LP I've liked best in my guitar-playing life. I usually don't like to brag about my gear, but the neck on this particular one imho is a work of art.

Concerning treble bleed: What you say makes sense again, BigB. The way you desribe it, I think I would also find
my guitar to behave strangely if I turned the volume down and the bass would get rolled off.

That would be the hardest part, I guess  Laughing

Well, this no one else can do for you  Confused

What I meant by saying this was that it's quite difficult to find the right words, because English isn't my native
language and additionally, I'm not chasing a particular sound I've heard, but rather some idea of a sound I've got. However, I know that I want less output, more transparency, (string) definition, dynamic response and an "open" rather than compressed sound where neither the mids, bass or treble get accentuated too much. I'm not much of a lead player right now, as the band sound doesn't call for guitar solos. The guitar still needs some capability in those regards, because we jam and improvise a lot and I greatly enjoy that, but it's far more important that my chord work comes through with each and every string clearly defined (clean or overdriven) and that the occasional single note line will sing rather than scream. I'm also a sucker for playing with the intensity of my pick attack, as well as using finger styles, so I need a guitar that is able to reflect those nuances.

@Gismo and Zaned: Thanks to you as well - I'll ask Tim for those particular pickups when I talk to him, although I believe those crawlers would have too much output again. The Stormy Mondays or the Black Dogs sound interesting enough, though.

I'll try to contact Tim now and will keep you posted on how things turn out!

Edit: Update:
So, I just talked to Tim and he recommended the following, which I just placed an order for:
It is *drumroll* a calibrated, covered, potted set of Stormy Mondays.
-Covered, because I was really not sure about the uncovered look anymore after having posted that I didn't want them covered, so I was pretty much open to what he'd suggest and he advised me to go for the covered version.
-Potted, because I'm going to use the guitar mainly in practice / live situations, and for the sake of avoiding feedback problems and squealing, he told me to go for the potted version.
-Stormy Mondays, because of added clarity and low output. I told him how I plan to switch between the LP and the Tele in live situations and how that is near impossible at the moment. So it's really the weakest of the bunch in terms of output for me.
-Caps: I ordered two 0.022uf caps (paper in oil) with the pups based on Tim's recommendation.
-Pots: Tim told me he sees no need to change them as long as they work, which they do.

Btw, the other pups we considered were Mules and VHIIs.
He's really a nice guy and took the time to answer my questions. Now I guess I'll just have to wait for the pups to arrive to hear them in action. So much looking forward to using the new stuff... :)
I'll update this thread in the future. You guys really helped me out here, and this is in general a very friendly place, so I will share my experiences and will remain an active member here.

[BigB]

The price tag for some good capacitors (if needed) or anything else is not that big of a concern for me, because this guitar really means a lot to me and I'm willing to invest into it, if it will help in making it sound good to my ears again.

Well, what's important here (wrt/ cap types) is the technology (ceramics, PIO etc), not a specific (and possibly overhyped) brand. Why spend $30 dollars on a bumblebee reedition when you can get just as good PIO cap for six time less ? I really doubt anyone would tell the difference in a blind test.  Remember that the average musician is not really tech-savy, and that there's a LOT of marketing hype (and cargo cult thinking) in this domain.

@Gismo and Zaned: Thanks to you as well - I'll ask Tim for those particular pickups when I talk to him, although I believe those crawlers would have too much output again. The Stormy Mondays or the Black Dogs sound interesting enough, though.

I can testify that the Crawlers are really good at clean sounds too - they're in fact the first humbuckers I enjoy playing clean - but while still having some vintage character (and then some...), they might indeed be a bit too hot for your tastes.  We'll see what Tim's advice will be, but I guess you'd be happier with cooler pups like Mules or PGBlues or the like...

My 2 cents...

[pop]

looking forward to hear how you like them

[BigB]

Edit: Update:
So, I just talked to Tim and he recommended the following, which I just placed an order for:
It is *drumroll* a calibrated, covered, potted set of Stormy Mondays.

I thought this would have been PGBlues - hopefully I didn't bet  :lol:

Btw, the other pups we considered were Mules and VHIIs.
He's really a nice guy and took the time to answer my questions. Now I guess I'll just have to wait for the pups to arrive to hear them in action. So much looking forward to using the new stuff... :)

Congrats... Hope you'll like your guitar with the new pups - but I'm not too worried about this, specially if you talked directly with Tim  8)

Just one last hint : BKPs seem to be very sensitive to height adjustment, so once you'll have them installed, take some time to fiddle with this, it'll pay off. You'll have a more "in your face" sound with pups close to the strings, and more "air" and more of the wood tone (but less output...) if your lower them quite a bit.

I'll update this thread in the future.

Might be better to open a "NPD" (New Pups Day) thread in the Guitars, Amps and Effects section (eventually adding a link here to the new thread so anyone wondering about how the Stormy Mondays worked for you can find out).

You guys really helped me out here, and this is in general a very friendly place, so I will share my experiences and will remain an active member here.

You're welcome  :)