Username: Password:

Author Topic: How do you record?  (Read 6839 times)

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
How do you record?
« on: December 11, 2009, 10:17:28 PM »
I know, million ways to skin that cat, and many books can and have been writen on it

But how do you do it, in general?

Some people might find this thread usefull (myself included!). I'll kick off:

I have two basic ways that I use very different processes for: modellers and properly, with amps.

When recording with a modeller, I monitor everything through my monitors. I dont bother with headphones. I line its analogue outs into a souncard, whatever one I happen to be using, and program up a few drums and set them to loop. Then I set the modeller to deliver as tight a sound as I can find that gain wise is the hot side of crunchy. I tweak it while listening to me playing two stereo panned signals of the same guitar over looping drums and tweak it till I like it, or rather till I hate it as little as possible. I then 4-track, minimum, everything, two of all passages panned hard.

Advantages:
You can record well into the night and not bug anyone. Doubly so if you do it with headphones
Its easier to find a sound that you dont utterly hate quite quickly.
Its much simpler to set up.
Its more consistent; there are fewer things to go wrong with time, you just store your settings and its the same every time.

Disadvantages:
Try as I might I cant get the things to sound really good. Passable is about the best available. Maybe 3/4 of the way *there* but that last 1/4 is so extremely important.
Because of the shorcomings in the sound; the general trends of lack of depth, thin staticy top end, I generally feel forced to 4-track every rhythm part and harmony, 2 either side. This is not easy, and I dont terribly like the sound of 4 tracking in general anyway; I find it sacrifices tightness and liveliness for thickness.

And with amp/s, speakers and mics. I happen to be doing this right now, and just taking a break, hence the thread.

This is probably gonna read like a lecture/turorial, and there arent any rules to this, this is just what I've found/researched and what I subsequently do - preface everything in you head as you read it with plenty of "imo"s and "you could try"s and "what works for me is"'s!

Its probably easier to start with the biggest problem here. Its a much more sonically complex process (to get decent sounding metal guitars at least, which you all probably realise by know is what I generally do with gutiars :lol:)

The problem, in my case and probably in most peoples cases is the room. Youre using mics and speakers, and mics WILL 'hear' the room with any mortal mics level of off axis rejection (you could try recording with shotgun mics I suppose), even close miced on a loud amp (the reflections are proportionately louder and the sound right at the face of the speaker is still affected by them equally). This is all exacerbated heavily by a small room, doubly so a symmetrical one. The reason for that is the rooms walls are close so the reflections interfere more strongly with the sound from the mic/s and the rooms resonant modes are higher so they are actually (possibly/probably) in the range of a guitar tone. These problems get bigger the lower you tune (I'm down in drop A sharp so it aint easy :lol:). I happen to know, from testing with frequency sweeps, that the strongest resonant mode of my room is round 130hz, so I know that I need to control this region very carefully, and it helps tremendously to know that and be able to identify it in the sound.

You also have to place at least one mic (two is a nightmare, trust me; you cant just throw them up there!).

First, the location of the cab in the room is very important. It should be at or as close as you can get it to the place in the room where the low end swells the most. This is an antinodal point in the rooms resonance and placing the cab there will give you the most even and clean low end response available from the room (add acoustic treatment to that as well). Put it on an isolation pad of some sort as well.

Then theres the reflections. I set up a little bunch of barriers/reflection attenuators at significant points round the cab to cut down what gets back to the mics. I use whatever I have available for this. Currently it consists of two rectangular guitar cases, some acoustic foam, a couple of planks with more foam glued to them, a duvet and some dining chairs! Dont forget the z axis! You hav a ceiling as well, and refelctions need to be controlled from that. I also have the cab fire down an archway that joins two rooms. Its about 12 or 13m long and has a load of junk at the end of it that break up reflections. It also happens to be (luck does work for you sometimes) that this point is the best available to me in the room for the low end. The long fire I think allows the sound to 'breathe', which means (to me at least) that you arent getting any/as much boxy midrange and second set of weird reflections and dulled sound that you can get from actually fully encasing the cab. If a long and relatively non-reflective line of fire isnt available then completely encasing the cab and speakers is something I find preferable to the sound of a small rooms reflections. You can generally control the mid and low mid hump you get (which is an overly resonant and unpleasing one) with EQ, or control it to some degree at least. There is no equivelent control for the reflections of the room, or none that I'm aware of.

I tend to place mics near the dust cap but not on it and right up against the grill. They aim just a little out of the boudary between the cap and rest of the speaker, but theres no wong place to put a mic, it just happens to be that I tend to like the balance of low end and attack and top definition I get in that general area. YMMV. Actually YMWV. Which mic wise, I'm very fond of all mine stuck right infront of the cab: an SM57 (of course) an audix i5, an MD421 and an NT1A. In general, all things being equal, I'm more likely to go for the 421, then the i5 then the 57 and at least try (and usually fail to any satisfactory level) to use the NT1A as a second mic a bit further back. Sounds ok on its own, but not tight enough to be the only mic. Great for cleans, but I'm not talking about cleans here!

Then, I start with something I like in the room, right up near the speaker I'm going to record (oh, I picked my favourite speaker ages ago and you should too! Mines a V30, top row (in an ubercab with v30s and k100s in an X)) and make some pre-emptive adjustments to the sound, because I KNOW that the high gain (4 ish on channel 4 on a powerball) sound I like to play with wont record well. Or if it will, I have no idea how to do it. I drop the gain to about 1 to 2, and I drop the bass from about 4 to about 1 to 2 as well. These may or may not be final settings, it depends how I want this track to sound, but they're much better starting points. I like to max the preamp gain and keep the power low to maintain max tightness and attack. This is not generally better, as a rule, its just because I cant record at the best possible volume (utterly flame throwing to get speakers moving and the cab resonating) because I have neighbours. I dont find, with my particular amp, that dialing in a tonne of power distortion affects it much (in a positive way at least) until it starts to get REALLY loud, and the speakers are excursing, so its quite quiet for a 100W head through a 4x12 (about 95db at 1m direct at one speaker).

Then I totally forget that the sound in the room even exists. I no longer care about it in the least. Its dead to me. It can do whatever the $%&# it wants and will end up sounding however it ends up sounding. I do care, immensly, about the sound through the mic/s, and even more about that sound when doubled and mixed in particular with drums. The kick and toms are going to step on the low end and the cymbals and snare on the high end. From this point out, its ALL through headphones and in a rudmentary mix. Yes, I know the bass adds yet more complexity but I tend to do that last and force it to fit the gutiars :lol: (and a ;) to all the bassists out there). This may not be the best way, but thats how I've done it so far.

THEN I program some drums (like before), and through isolating headpones, I play along to it with the same stereo panning I had with the modellers, and I make iterative tweaks of settings, pedals, mic placement and sheilding till I think I'm getting somewhere. Then I start doing test tracks with real double tracks and make more tweaks. When I dont think its getting much better, I get on with tracking. Since theres a loud amp nearby I track through Senn HD25s, but lots of headphones can do the job so long as they attenuate a good 20db or so of ambient noise and you can actually listen to whats in the headphones.

Disadvantages:
The setup process is MUCH more involved and potentially expensive (topping out at buy a new house to get a better room :lol:).
The setup is less stable - bumb a mic and good luck getting the exact same sound back again (mark up your mic position on the cab! that helps at least, but there are still audiable errors in trying to put a mic back where it was).
Louder in the room, can bother neighbours.

Advantages:
The quality of sound that you *can* get exceeds that of a modeller considerably. More depth, more 3d, more natural, both in tone and the sense of space in the sound that you will still no doubt be left with after sheilding from reflections.
You only need double track. Its easier.

Oh, I also have a reamper (a radial x-amp) and cant recommend it highly enough. I have alas only used it far enough to get proof of concept on it, understand what I need to do with it, any additional effects it has on the sound and yada yada: I discovered when I passively split the signal when I first tried to use it during recording that passive signal splitting is a noisy $%&#er and I need a good DI&splitter as well: just relying on an instrument input on an interface isnt enough unfortunately. However, I've used it enough to recommend the shitee out of it. I cant wait to lay down the DIs for the song I'm doing now and use the reamper to let me wring the best tone I can find (for the track I'm recording now at least) out of my gear at a later date, without having to worry about take quality/tuning/string condition and so on and so forth.

Well, that was a HELL of a lot longer than I planned on it being. Oh well.

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2009, 03:01:35 AM »
Godamn phase problems. I think I need a total room recall :(. Try another cab location. Theres another way I record - very bloody annoyingly.

Edit - fixed. Or at least tollerable.

I want a "save as" option for my amp and pedal settings, mic location and all the gubbins I put round the place to control the sound!

Ok, I'll leave this now rather than turn it into a running commentary on my audio engineering troubles. (y'know, for its purpose, of people putting their styles/methods up)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 05:08:23 AM by MDV »

Antag

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2071
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 07:44:22 AM »
To answer the question at the top of the thread: not very well :)

I have a Rocktron VooduValve that I can record direct with.  It's a decent, useable sound, but not great.  Like you I find its big advantage is that you can use it at all hours without bothering anyone else.

I'd love to record with my Engl close mic'd but I absolutely suck at getting a good sound.  None of the clips I've posted here even come [/i]close[/i] to capturing the great sound I get from this amp.  I don't have the patience to experiment with mic placement etc, nor the time to spend doing it (with a full time job & 2 small children it's rare that I get more than a few hours at a time to myself).  Also, recording with the amp in the same room makes it hard to follow the backing/click track through even the best headphones - ideally I'd have the amp in a separate room & listen to it on the monitors.

Aside from lack of ability.knowledge, those are my main problems...
BKPs: HD, MM, NB, PK, CS, Ab (b&n); Am (b only); VHII, Tril (n only); IT, Slow, Sult (m&n)

_tom_

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 8842
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2009, 09:39:06 AM »
I'm not very picky with my recordings. So long as it sounds good enough then I don't care too much. My process is something like:

-write/program drums to fit riffs I have
-record a bassline
-record guitars

If I'm using a modeller I'll monitor it through my speakers, because it's nicer to play along and be able to hear your tone properly.

If mic'ing then I won't bother with any monitoring other than the drum track up through my speakers really loud. My amp is in the same room as the computer so theres no need. This does mean that theres a bit of the drum track in all my guitar tracks, but I cba to fix that haha. Don't have sound isolating headphones so I can't really go down that route to hear the drums.

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2009, 07:38:03 PM »
To answer the question at the top of the thread: not very well :)

I have a Rocktron VooduValve that I can record direct with.  It's a decent, useable sound, but not great.  Like you I find its big advantage is that you can use it at all hours without bothering anyone else.

I'd love to record with my Engl close mic'd but I absolutely suck at getting a good sound.  None of the clips I've posted here even come [/i]close[/i] to capturing the great sound I get from this amp.  I don't have the patience to experiment with mic placement etc, nor the time to spend doing it (with a full time job & 2 small children it's rare that I get more than a few hours at a time to myself).  Also, recording with the amp in the same room makes it hard to follow the backing/click track through even the best headphones - ideally I'd have the amp in a separate room & listen to it on the monitors.

Aside from lack of ability.knowledge, those are my main problems...

I know what you mean about not capturing it in recording. Its a totally different thing though. With just playing, how you want it to sound to your ears in the room youre listening A: with ears, obviously, and mics dont pick up sound the same way (unless you have top class ribbon mics, they are apparently pretty close) and B: to the whole cab, and all of each speaker in it.

A miced sound is just a narrow window into that sound, from one small part of the speaker and right up close to it, where sound is doing crazy things. A close mic will never sound like the amp does to your ears a little ways back. Certainly not a dynamic one. One has to learn the sound of micing in general and kind of have 2 (at least) sounds that you enjoy/know what you like in/what works in the required setting: the sound in the room (inc stages and venues) with your normal settings (and probably small variations) and the sound through the mic/s

It is a pain listening through headphones, tom. Often I'll track something through the HD25s and it sounds fine, but I see problems through my Adams (which are FAR more revealing). Regular checks are required. Then referencing on other systems.

JDC

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1604
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2009, 10:37:52 PM »
This probably isn't much help but what kind of foam are you using? I saw a thing on TV ages ago about a super quiet room and all the walls were covered in foam squares with huge long vertical or horizontal spikes, this might have been in the Marshall factory, I'm sure you know of such stuff already.

Errrr why do people close mic amps instead of using ribbon mics?

Will

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2599
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2009, 11:07:16 PM »
This probably isn't much help but what kind of foam are you using? I saw a thing on TV ages ago about a super quiet room and all the walls were covered in foam squares with huge long vertical or horizontal spikes, this might have been in the Marshall factory, I'm sure you know of such stuff already.

Errrr why do people close mic amps instead of using ribbon mics?

The one in the Marshall factory is for electrical testing I believe. Can't quite think of the right name, but its to pass the EU regs

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 12:38:51 AM »
This probably isn't much help but what kind of foam are you using? I saw a thing on TV ages ago about a super quiet room and all the walls were covered in foam squares with huge long vertical or horizontal spikes, this might have been in the Marshall factory, I'm sure you know of such stuff already.

Errrr why do people close mic amps instead of using ribbon mics?

Mot ribbon mics cant take close micing.

The only one I know if (which is a long way from saying the only one!) is the royer R121. It costs about 1000 quid. Theres a reason that people still use 57s, E609s, E906s, i5s, MD421s etc etc etc, though - they are quite capable of sounding good. Nay, great. You just need to know how to use them (that includes controlling the sound of the room, settings on the amp and all the rest). A huge number of rock and metal albums are recorded with one or two SM57s, and thats been true for around as long as rock and metal have existed, and that, its worth remembering, is in pro studios where a there'll be a several grand in monitors, quite probably a 6 figure sum in outboard gear, the desk alone will probably be 10 grand at least - they can use any damned mic they please, and still use the same cheap dynamics that everyone uses.

Besides, mics are like pickups - its what works for the track, works with the amp, the speaker, the guitar, what works in the mix, what gets you closest to the sound in your head; all personal preference, there is no right answer. And a mic doesnt know what its recording. Wanna close mic metal guitars with a small diaphram condenser? Go for it. Might be amazing, depends how you do it.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 12:41:16 AM by MDV »

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2009, 12:40:47 AM »
Oh, the foam is just some generic stuff I got from here

http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/soundproofing/amw.htm

Denim n Leather

  • Guest
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2009, 04:28:17 AM »
This probably isn't much help but what kind of foam are you using? I saw a thing on TV ages ago about a super quiet room and all the walls were covered in foam squares with huge long vertical or horizontal spikes, this might have been in the Marshall factory, I'm sure you know of such stuff already.

Errrr why do people close mic amps instead of using ribbon mics?

The one in the Marshall factory is for electrical testing I believe. Can't quite think of the right name, but its to pass the EU regs
Anechoic chamber.

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2009, 04:07:04 PM »
Ben! You should have some great knowledge for this thread!

remak

  • Flyweight
  • *
  • Posts: 76
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 02:46:43 PM »
Quote
Most ribbon mics cant take close micing.

Older ribbon mics are sensitive to air currents but handle high volume sources as well as most condenser mics. The aluminum ribbon Royer R121 is rated at 135dB SPL. The new generation ribbons using Crowley and Tripp nanotechnology are virtually indestructible

Check this ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jsuCgGBQ5A

guess that's why Shure bought them.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 02:48:19 PM by remak »
Abraxas callibrated, Mules callibrated.

Frank

  • Guest
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 05:02:19 PM »
If I'm doing any serious recording it's an SM57 in front of the speaker. Modelling preamps are handy for demos and late-night sessions but the sound from them is just horrible and unconvincing.

Johnny Mac

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5841
    • Ultimate Guitar Profile
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 09:22:43 PM »
I was thinking of buying a fractal audio Axe FX to take all the pain away from miking a tube amp.  I haven't got a sound proofed room so there's no way I can krank up my amp to get it sound like it does in rehearsal. It has so many options and effects built into it, it's like a guitarists must have unit.
Warpig, MQ,
Miracle Man-Trilogy Suite, Cold Sweats, Black Guards, Rebel Yells & Irish Tours!

AndyR

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4715
  • Where's all the top end gone?
    • My Offerings
Re: How do you record?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2009, 12:01:45 PM »
I'm still using modellors - VOX Tonelab LE mainly - I find it's close enough for my purposes, a LOT easier, and there's no way I can record a valve amp here (environment not quiet enough, and the amp's to bluddy loud for everyone else!).

Having said that, I've just started playing through an amp again - got me one of those Vox AC4TV beasties. It's gorgeous, but still too damn loud, even on the 1/4 watt setting - although I am having some fun with it at the moment during the day while I'm off work and the neighbours aren't :D

One thing I've noticed on the "valve amp versus modellor" thing over the last couple of days is that, for me personally, it's not about whether one produces a better or more authentic tone - I can get that out of either, enough to suit my purposes anyway. It's more about how it makes me feel while I'm playing, and how it affects how I play. The valve amp up and cooking is a far more satisfying experience as a player, it definitely "responds" differently and takes a slightly different set of playing skills to obtain the same effect.

The VERY interesting thing I've discovered is when I've been playing the valve amp for a few hours and then switch back to the modellor and studio speakers - I find my playing has "improved" and the tones coming out of the modellor sound more "authentic" to me...

I know I'm not going to convince many/some of you of this (!), same as no-one's gonna convince me anymore that a well mic'd valve amp in a decent space will always be better... but I just thought I'd chuck it in the mix :D

Johnny - I was seriously tempted by the Axe FX a while back, but the GAS has worn off (and I'm not doing enough to justify spending that much at the moment...). I'd recommend, if you've not tried modelling that much yet, dipping a toe in with something cheaper (eg the Tonelab).
Play or Download AndyR Music at http://www.alonetone.com/andyr