Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...

[BigB]

Ok, I already posted about this one last year, but a couple things happened since - notably a '62 RI Custom tele with BGF50s, killer pups FWIW - and my mind and needs may have change a little.

So, first, the guitar (NB : Fernando, before you ask, the pic is below ) - already presented it, but let's start again so you don't have to browse the whole forum. It's a '81 MIJ (matsumoku built) Vox Standard 25, strat-like (but not just a strat copy), thick maple neck, maple touchboard, very thick and heavy maple body - man gotta love maple :mrgreen: - SSS config, vintage-style trem bridge.  The stock pups are DM FS-1 (think: early Dire Straits or Gilmour/The Wall
area).

Unplugged, it's very resonant, and kind of bright as you would expect. Pretty good sustain - seen better, but still above average.

Plugged, it has tight but present bottom end - more than the Tele actually, don't know if it comes from the wood or the pups - and indeed quite a lot of highs, a bit on the fizzy side FWIW. It can be sweet sounding on the neck pup, and has a mostly good balance on positions 2 & 4. Middle position is kinda middy sounding - can be nice under OD but not very pleasant clean - and the bridge position is (as often) just to thin, trebbly and bordering on ice-pick to be of any use.

Globally, I kind of like the cleans, I think there's a pretty good potential here with less compressed pups. Mild OD/Crunch tones are a bit fizzy to my taste but could do well for bluesy stuff - here again,  less compressed pups might work better. Higher gain settings don't work that well to me - too fizzy/fuzzy (probably a result of the maple touchboard ?), but still can get some decent distorted lead tones on the neck.

I first planned on making this guitar a very rockin' one to complement the Vox Custom 24, but the Tele took this place, so I'm now much more open-minded. Also, my experience with the  BGF50s is a bit of revelation - I never thought vintage single-coils could sound so hot yet so airy and alive, so... Well, I don't really have special plans for this guitar no more, except trying to find the "right" pups for it - that is, the pups that will "reveal" _this_ guitar's tone, whatever it happens to sound like in the end - let it be, amen.

So gentlemen (sorry, not a lot of ladies around here I'm afraid), what would you do with this guitar ?



PS : as far as I'm concerned, I'd be tempted to try either MotherMilk or the new, yet undescribed 62-spec'd strat set, but I'm opened to any suggestion...

[Antag]

If it was me, I'd go for a set of base-plated SULTANS'

Why Sultans'?  Because I love the Sultans mid/neck I have in my Warmoth strat.
Why base-plated?  Because I have non-plated Slowhand mid/neck in one guitar & plated Slowhand neck in another.  It's a night and day difference (OK the one with plated SH is a nicer guitar all round but a lot of it must be down to the difference between the pickups...)
So I'm thinking that Sultans with base plates would be fantastic.

On the subject of power, I agree with your comment "I never thought vintage single-coils could sound so hot yet so airy and alive".  FWIW, my Warmoth strat has a Nailbomb in the bridge & the Sultans' balance pretty well with it.  Clip here

[maverickf1jockey]

Apaches?
That guitar screams out for subtle bar shimmers and slapback to me.

Alternatively you could go for something more Hendrixy with some Irish Tours or Mother's Milks.

If it's a bit too zingy as is I'd be tempted to put a baseplate on the bridge if I were you.

[FernandoDuarte]

(NB : Fernando, before you ask, the pic is below )

Seems like you're learning well, little grasshopper! :D

Looks cool!
Is the pickups positions are in the same positions than a normal Strat? I think they're a bit closer than usual...

[BigB]

If it was me, I'd go for a set of base-plated SULTANS'

Why Sultans'?  Because I love the Sultans mid/neck I have in my Warmoth strat.

That makes at least a very subjective (hence very good) argument :mrgreen:

Why base-plated?  Because I have non-plated Slowhand mid/neck in one guitar & plated Slowhand neck in another.  It's a night and day difference

Care to elaborate ? I did read the FAQ but have no direct experience here.

Also, if I understand correctly, one of the primary reasons for the baseplate is to beef up the bridge a bit so it balances better with the (non-baseplated) middle and neck, so I guess this benefice is lost with baseplates on all three pups ?

Apaches?
That guitar screams out for subtle bar shimmers and slapback to me.

Well yes, I do like these tones too - even if on different kind of musics (works fine for stuff like Hendrix's rythm part's tones on All Along the Watchtower, gives kind of a subtle manual flange effect). 

How's the bottom end on Apaches ?

Alternatively you could go for something more Hendrixy with some Irish Tours or Mother's Milks.

I'd think ITs might be a bit too bright on this guitar. The MM are indeed well-placed on my own list.

[38thBeatle]

Apaches are well balanced lovely warm clean pure Statfullness.

[BigB]

Hi Fernando - yeps, seems I've read enough of your posts to get a feel about what you would first ask  8)

I can't tell about the pups spacing, I don't have a strat to compare with - but feel free to send one in if you want me to sort this out :mrgreen:

[Zaned]

I would probably stay away from the most midrange heavy pickups, as a maple body tends to have a lot of it already.
Apaches sound like a nice suggestion. Don't know how an Apache bridge pickup would handle the baseplate, but I would be tempted to do that, as the guitar is bright.

Off-topic, but that kind of a headstock now forever reminds me of the Wangcaster  :lol: Sorry, I just can't help it.

http://www.carverdoug.com/wang.html

-Zaned

[Antag]

If it was me, I'd go for a set of base-plated SULTANS'

Why Sultans'?  Because I love the Sultans mid/neck I have in my Warmoth strat.

That makes at least a very subjective (hence very good) argument :mrgreen:

:) I like the Sultans' top end a lot more than the Irish Tour - seems a bit sweeter, but no less bright (if that makes any sense).  The Sultans don't have quite the aggressive "pop" at the start of the note that ITs have & don't seem to "sizzle" in the same way.

Why base-plated?  Because I have non-plated Slowhand mid/neck in one guitar & plated Slowhand neck in another.  It's a night and day difference

Care to elaborate ? I did read the FAQ but have no direct experience here.

Also, if I understand correctly, one of the primary reasons for the baseplate is to beef up the bridge a bit so it balances better with the (non-baseplated) middle and neck, so I guess this benefice is lost with baseplates on all three pups ?

Yes, the base plated neck pickup has more power & punch, more low end, generally feels more "lively".  Bear in mind that my favourite bridge pickup is the Holy Diver which the unplated Slowhand neck didn't balance particularly well with.  In my case beefing up the Slowhand neck was a good thing.

The point I'm trying to make is that I like what the baseplate did for the Slowhand, so I'm guessing that I'd really like what it would do for a Sultans' set as I like the unplated Sultan a lot better than the unplated Slowhand... :)

Yes, putting base plates on the whole set beefs up all 3 pickups, so they will balance with each other in pretty much the same way that the unplated set balances with itself, but my understanding of the calibrated strat sets is that the bridge has a bit extra winding anyway to make the whole set balance (6.4k for a Sultans' bridge versus 5.75k for the mid/neck)

I have no experience of a "proper" strat - all my guitars have bridge humbuckers.  In fact, the only strats I've ever owned have been HSS or twin humbucker, so I can't comment on single coil bridges.  If I ever buy a strat with the standard SSS pickup config, it wouldn't bother me if the bridge single seemed unbalanced - in fact I'd expect it to.  Trying to make it more powerful - either by base plating just the bridge or using something more powerful like a Trilogy  - would seem pointless as I already have plenty of guitars with a powerful bridge pickup.

[BigB]

I would probably stay away from the most midrange heavy pickups, as a maple body tends to have a lot of it already.

Indeed. Now it also have lots of highs too so a (too) scooped pup could easily over-emphasis them... But yes, your point makes sense - and it's easier to filter out hi ends than mids.

Do you think MM would be to middy here ?

Apaches sound like a nice suggestion. Don't know how an Apache bridge pickup would handle the baseplate, but I would be tempted to do that, as the guitar is bright.

Bright with tight lows - so having something to beef up the low end a bit would indeed help IMHO. To be true, the question is not whether to baseplate the bridge or not, but rather whether to baseplate _only_ the bridge - or the whole set !-)

Ok, so this makes one more vote for Apaches.

[BigB]

:) I like the Sultans' top end a lot more than the Irish Tour - seems a bit sweeter, but no less bright (if that makes any sense).  The Sultans don't have quite the aggressive "pop" at the start of the note that ITs have & don't seem to "sizzle" in the same way.

I think I know what you mean by "sweeter but no less bright". wrt/ ITs, I (re)listened at some available samples yesterday night (and stayed awake until 2:30 in the morning - pretty bad idea), and given how this Vox sounds with the rather warm and dark DiMarzio FS-1 it really don't need _more_ sizzle !-)

Thanks for the description of Sultan's BTW. Did you ever had a chance to compare them with Apaches ?

Yes, the base plated neck pickup has more power & punch, more low end, generally feels more "lively".  Bear in mind that my favourite bridge pickup is the Holy Diver which the unplated Slowhand neck didn't balance particularly well with.  In my case beefing up the Slowhand neck was a good thing.

The point I'm trying to make is that I like what the baseplate did for the Slowhand, so I'm guessing that I'd really like what it would do for a Sultans' set as I like the unplated Sultan a lot better than the unplated Slowhand... :)

Ok, thanks. If I may ask, how is the Sultan's bottom end ? Compared, to, say SH (which some have described as the closest match to FS-1).

Maple bodies are usually described as having very tight and a bit tappered off low ends. I can testify about the "tight" part - it's very obvious on both my Vox - but at least with FS-1, this one still have more low ends than my (alder-body, BGF50s) Tele (comparing both neck pups). Now I don't now if it comes from the guitar itself or from the FS-1 ???

Yes, putting base plates on the whole set beefs up all 3 pickups, (snip) but my understanding of the calibrated strat sets is that the bridge has a bit extra winding anyway to make the whole set balance (6.4k for a Sultans' bridge versus 5.75k for the mid/neck)

AFAICT all BKP bridges have extra winding anyway. While it indeed help balancing with the neck level-wise, it won't be do much for the (relative) extra hi ends and loss of low ends.

I have no experience of a "proper" strat - all my guitars have bridge humbuckers (snip) so I can't comment on single coil bridges.  If I ever buy a strat with the standard SSS pickup config, it wouldn't bother me if the bridge single seemed unbalanced - in fact I'd expect it to.
[/ quote]

Well, I don't have much experience with Strats but at least they were all SSS - and the best description I could give of a SC strat bridge is "barely usable". Ok, well, it can get better under heavy overdrive / distortion, and I guess a tone control on the bridge would help too, but believe me it gets _very_ thin and trebly compared with even the mid pup.

 Trying to make it more powerful - either by base plating just the bridge or using something more powerful like a Trilogy  - would seem pointless as I already have plenty of guitars with a powerful bridge pickup.

Yeps, quite a few strat wiring mods just take this approach of only using the bridge as an "add-on" to other pups - which more or less follows the same logic as not even having a tone pot on the bridge.  So yes, perhaps baseplating the whole set and wiring the 5th position for something like a neck+bridge (or mid+bridge) series might be a better move than trying to make the bridge usable "stand-alone".

Anyway... Thanks Antag for your comments, very helpful. May I abuse and ask how you would compare SH with Sultans ?

[BigB]

Apaches are well balanced lovely warm clean pure Statfullness.

Sounds like you love them quite a bit  8)

Ok, so so far we have:

* Apaches : 3
* Sultans : 1
* MM : 0.5
* IT : -0
* SH : 0

Strange enough, no one mentionned Trilogy or Sinners so far :mrgreen:

[gwEm]

Strange enough, no one mentionned Trilogy or Sinners so far :mrgreen:

Nailbombs








































PDT_008

[BigB]

Strange enough, no one mentionned Trilogy or Sinners so far :mrgreen:

Nailbombs

Interesting idea, but then I'd have to physically split the pups to make'em fit in the single-coil sized pockets - and I'd end up with one useless coil ... 

 :drink:

[AndyR]

I've been watching this one with interest, but I've been a bit busy over work to be able to waffle...

Now suddenly I'm free for a bit (until my dinner is ready!)

I haven't really got a suggestion, but I do have some input.

Irish Tours
These are the only BKP strat set I have so far.

They've been in a Fiesta Red (I think the colour affects the tone :lol:) CIJ 62 strat where they sounded very nice, or so I thought at the time.

They were a lot clearer than the Texas Specials it came with, but kind of thicker than some of the strat sounds I was reaching for. I enjoyed them very much in there for nearly two years... but then things happened...

I got me a Sunburst Roadworn 60s strat that seemed to be crying out for ITs. I was a little concerned because this strat is LOADS BRIGHTER than the CIJ... but I thought I might as well give it a go.

The Roadworn had Tex Mex pickups which were very expressive but seemed a bit thin.

I swapped the pickups from one guitar to the other...

The Irish Tours, in the brighter guitar, are loads sweeter and more expressive than they were in the CIJ strat. They still do gritty Rory brightness, but now they do sweet as well. I don't see them leaving this guitar ever...

My point, in this case, is don't necessarily write off ITs for a bright guitar... I'm not suggesting them, but they might be a possibility, even though it's a bright guitar...

Apaches
I was considering these for myself.

The Tex Mex pickups, which were thin in the Roadworn, sounded really good in the Fiesta Red CIJ. It was doing some serious Hank Marvin work and southern rock funkiness.

And then the middle pickup died (they sound good, but they look extremely flimsy, fragile, and plastic when you get the scratchplate off :lol:). I suspect I can fix it, but I still had the old Texas Specials, so in they went...

YUK!!! :lol: I've almost got them going ok with height adjustments, but I'm starting to think BKP :roll:

And, of course, Hank... so, er.., Apaches.

I've taken a bit of advice, and the words I'm getting back are "Apaches - lovely rounded strat tones".

That's not what I want from this guitar, alas. I want a bit more lightness and cut.

I bring this up because I've only just realised about the "rounded" bit, and if it's not your cup of tea either... then possibly beware of Apaches? I'm convinced they're stunning, especially if you want a rounded sounding strat tone, but if you want more quack etc... maybe not...

I'm personally dithering between:

a) Mother's Milks - which is what I nearly got instead of ITs in the first place - late 60s, Hendrixy, etc, which would be perfect except I've learnt that my CIJ is very warm/thick sounding anyway...
b) This unadvertised "62 Set" that some people have been going for.
c) Sultans.

The Sultans have been in the lead for a week or two, and Antag's posts have pushed them further ahead (many thanks!).

About thin bridge pickups on strats
I used to think this (bridge on its own unusable), but I don't anymore.

I've always had my strats rewired to master tone (and leave the other tone disconnected - I tried the blend stuff years ago, amongst other things, and didn't like it, didn't seem very stratty to me). But even with a tone on the bridge, I hardly ever used it.

Then when I got the ITs, suddenly I found a bridge that worked, even with the tone full open. It was "wow!" :lol:

I have since discovered that, for me, it's all about pickup height adjustment - in the last year I've fiddled with 4 sets of strat pups on different guitars (including the set I used live for years, ignoring the bridge on its own), and every single set ended up with a usable bridge pickup :roll:

Of course, it is down to amp settings, personal preferences, and all sorts of stuff, but I'm sure that a usable bridge pickup (in comparison to the others in the set) is probably hiding in most sets - especially in a BKP set!

Other Stuff
Er... can't think of any... and the missus says my dinner's ready :lol:

oh yeah - baseplates... not tried them, sounds interesting, but not something that I want to try at the moment...  If I was trying to balance a single with a humbucker, I might... but with what I've found over bridge pickups over the last year, I can't see me going for a baseplate anywhere on a SSS strat configuration.

And pickup positions on your guitar - is the second harmonic (equivalent to the 5th fret harmonic) over the neck pickup? If it isn't, the pups aren't in quite the same place as a strat. Try putting the guitar onto neck only and then try to get a 5th fret harmonic - on a strat, very little comes through the amplifier...


... Hope something in that lot helps! :D