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Author Topic: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...  (Read 10461 times)

Zaned

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2010, 09:14:15 AM »
About the Irish tours; they're bright, yes. They also have a good amount of mids, which this guitar probably already has a lot of. About MMs, I don't think they'd be too middy.

I still stand by my recommandation of the Apaches. 

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BigB

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2010, 01:50:54 PM »
I haven't really got a suggestion, but I do have some input.

"some" ? Now that's an understatement :mrgreen:

Plenty of things to think about here...

Irish Tours
The Irish Tours, in the brighter guitar, are loads sweeter and more expressive than they were in the CIJ strat. They still do gritty Rory brightness, but now they do sweet as well. I don't see them leaving this guitar ever...
My point, in this case, is don't necessarily write off ITs for a bright guitar... I'm not suggesting them, but they might be a possibility, even though it's a bright guitar...

Interesting. I suppose this has to do with the harmonic composition of the guitar's hi ends and whatnot, but it's probably a too complex interaction to be easily understood.

Apaches
I've taken a bit of advice, and the words I'm getting back are "Apaches - lovely rounded strat tones".
I bring this up because I've only just realised about the "rounded" bit

Well, as far as i'm concerned this may be a point in favor of Apaches - specially on this particular guitar !-)


About thin bridge pickups on strats
I used to think this (bridge on its own unusable), but I don't anymore.
(snip)
Then when I got the ITs, suddenly I found a bridge that worked, even with the tone full open. It was "wow!" :lol:

Mmm, I now realize I had kind of the same pattern with my Tele. The stock bridge pup was so shrill and ice-picky it was just unusable without the tone rolled half-way, while the BGF50s bridge JustWork as is (with indeed a great "wow" factor).

I have since discovered that, for me, it's all about pickup height adjustment

Huhu... I'll keep this in mind.

And pickup positions on your guitar - is the second harmonic (equivalent to the 5th fret harmonic) over the neck pickup? If it isn't, the pups aren't in quite the same place as a strat. Try putting the guitar onto neck only and then try to get a 5th fret harmonic - on a strat, very little comes through the amplifier...

Looks like I have the second harmonic just above the "neck-border" of the neck pup (I mean: not above the pup's pole).

... Hope something in that lot helps! :D

It does - even the parts I didn't answer (but have carefully read). Thanks a lot for sharing. 
:good: :drink:
Have: Crawlers, BGF 50/52s, Mules, ABomb, RiffRaff
Had : Slowhands (n&m), Trilogy (b)

BigB

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2010, 01:59:28 PM »
About the Irish tours; they're bright, yes. They also have a good amount of mids, which this guitar probably already has a lot of.
About MMs, I don't think they'd be too middy.

I still stand by my recommandation of the Apaches. 

Strong uppermids range, yes, but not overbearing neither. But anyway - the Tele with BGF50s already fullfill my needs for raw gritty SC tones, and the Vox already has way enough grit by itself to not need more IMHO (I'd still like to hear what this combo would like but, hey, I just can't afford a full BKP set only to satisfy my curiosity  :?)

Thanks for your inputs, Zaned.
Have: Crawlers, BGF 50/52s, Mules, ABomb, RiffRaff
Had : Slowhands (n&m), Trilogy (b)

BigB

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2010, 02:05:19 PM »
Strange enough, no one mentionned Trilogy or Sinners so far :mrgreen:
Nailbombs

FWIW, I was only half joking. I didn't really considered going contemporary / hi-gain on this guitar, but didn't rule the option out neither, so any input on what kind of results I could get from Trilogy or Sinners on this guitar is welcome  8)
Have: Crawlers, BGF 50/52s, Mules, ABomb, RiffRaff
Had : Slowhands (n&m), Trilogy (b)

AndyR

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2010, 05:59:33 PM »
Irish Tours
The Irish Tours, in the brighter guitar, are loads sweeter and more expressive than they were in the CIJ strat. They still do gritty Rory brightness, but now they do sweet as well. I don't see them leaving this guitar ever...
My point, in this case, is don't necessarily write off ITs for a bright guitar... I'm not suggesting them, but they might be a possibility, even though it's a bright guitar...

Interesting. I suppose this has to do with the harmonic composition of the guitar's hi ends and whatnot, but it's probably a too complex interaction to be easily understood.

That's exactly what I thought :lol:
And it's why I won't go "Irish Tours, that's what you need..."
If you had a set to hand, like I did, I'd go "bang 'em in, it might be a marriage made in heaven..." (but you'd have already tried it anyway! :lol:)

Apaches
I've taken a bit of advice, and the words I'm getting back are "Apaches - lovely rounded strat tones".
I bring this up because I've only just realised about the "rounded" bit

Well, as far as i'm concerned this may be a point in favor of Apaches - specially on this particular guitar !-)

And with that, even though I've not tried them personally, I believe my recommendation for this guitar is ....


Apaches!! :D
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BigB

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2010, 07:23:07 PM »
Irish Tours
The Irish Tours, in the brighter guitar, are loads sweeter and more expressive than they were in the CIJ strat. They still do gritty Rory brightness, but now they do sweet as well.

Interesting. I suppose this has to do with the harmonic composition of the guitar's hi ends and whatnot, but it's probably a too complex interaction to be easily understood.

That's exactly what I thought :lol:
And it's why I won't go "Irish Tours, that's what you need..."
If you had a set to hand, like I did, I'd go "bang 'em in, it might be a marriage made in heaven..." (but you'd have already tried it anyway! :lol:)

Duh... Too bad there are so few BKP users in my neighbourood :(  Don't even have a chance to try out a BKP set on someone else's axe.

Apaches
I've taken a bit of advice, and the words I'm getting back are "Apaches - lovely rounded strat tones".
I bring this up because I've only just realised about the "rounded" bit

Well, as far as i'm concerned this may be a point in favor of Apaches - specially on this particular guitar !-)

And with that, even though I've not tried them personally, I believe my recommendation for this guitar is ....

Apaches!! :D

So this makes one more vote for the little indians.

* Apaches : 4
* Sultans : 1 => Antag, anything to say ? Or anyone else on the difference between Apaches and Sultans ?
* MM : 0.5 => any comment welcome
* IT : -0 => odds are they won't fit this guitar BUT...
* SH : 0 => any comment welcome

And still no one about Trilogy or Sinners... Does anyone use'em ? :wink:

Have: Crawlers, BGF 50/52s, Mules, ABomb, RiffRaff
Had : Slowhands (n&m), Trilogy (b)

AndyR

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2010, 11:25:20 AM »
Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)

BUT, I did a lot of research on here yesterday, searching old posts etc.

I still suspect the Apaches are your best bet.

I now understand why the ITs work better, for me, in my bright sounding Roadworn. They were designed to be "thicker" than the vintage range and give slightly more punch. I found several posts from Tim (did a search in Pickups for "Sultans") which gave me this info. He explained that he'd designed them to give a "standard player" a pickup that would approach the Rory Gallagher and SRV type tones. Those guys achieved these tones with lower powered pickups, but with heavier strings than average and with potentially very aggressive left/right hand techniques - you've got to work hard with your fingers to get those tones. The ITs are designed to get a player with a lighter touch into that ballpark without changing your style.

Aha! :lol:

I already have that aggressive left/right hand technique - just ask my fretboards - I've been trying to sound like Rory since 1980, and I was already a bit heavy-handed on an accoustic at that stage. And I use heavier strings than Rory did.

So in my warmer CIJ, I suspect that my standard mode of playing made the IT tone even thicker... Sometimes I was struggling to get enough top-end out of them(!).

In my brighter/thinner/harder Roadworn, the ITs, the guitar, and my playing, all complement/compensate each other to give me a slightly hotter than vintage pure woody strat tone... (by the way, this has put a temptation to try to improve the tone with a steel block right out of the window!! :lol:).

On the Sultans, the impression I have come away with (and there are some fairly conflicting views expressed on here over the years :lol:) is that they are possibly slightly smoother than the Apaches, and that they are slightly brighter by adding top end rather than losing  anything else. The extra brightness is sometimes described as sweeter than the ITs brightness.

I found something new about Apaches that I didn't know: they are apparently "hotter" than the "average 50s pickup" was - they're like the odd set that would crop up with a few more windings and sound utterly fab... And this means they can snarl as well as do the other stuff you'd expect from a 50s strat pickup.

I was already aware of this one: Unless it's changed, and I doubt it, the Apaches are also apparently Tim's favourite strat pickup (I even read that he's rumoured to have used them in Ozzy tribute band).

Anyway, I finally went for Sultans on the CIJ because:

a) Apaches, I believe, will be more rounded than I want (at the moment) given my technique
b) Mother's Milks, although I would love to get a set, and would sound fabulous, would make the CIJ sound a little bit close to the IT'd Roadworn
c) I'm not after an "allround" strat at the moment - for me, that's my Roadworn - I want the CIJ to do a completely different job, a "classy", clean, percussive strat tone, with good bottom and detailed mids, probably to be used without a pick much of the time... kinda fits the Sultans descriptions a bit too close for comfort if I'm ruling out the Apaches :lol:

I'll post a thread when they're in...
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Philly Q

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2010, 12:24:26 PM »
Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)

I'll be interested to know how those turn out.  I've had vague ides of getting a set of Sultans for my Robert Cray Strat, just to have something really clean, old-fashioned and "pure" sounding.  Maybe with a baseplate on the bridge for a hint of Tele.
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

AndyR

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2010, 12:52:11 PM »
Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)

I'll be interested to know how those turn out.  I've had vague ides of getting a set of Sultans for my Robert Cray Strat, just to have something really clean, old-fashioned and "pure" sounding.  Maybe with a baseplate on the bridge for a hint of Tele.

Yeah, that's why I'm going for them, slightly different references, but Robert Cray will do.

I came so close to contacting Tim this time. But the emails I tried to write were several pages long, and I believe my own answer to them would have been "Apaches" anyway :lol:

Then after all the reading yesterday, and sleeping on it, I realised the big decider was that I want the CIJ to be noticably different from the Roadworn - and I want an almost "clinical" strat sound to let the fingers through (think Mr Cray and Mr Knopfler, I spose). And if I added that to my possible email, the would probably be Apaches will do it, but Sultans will as well...

So I just ordered :D

(By the way, I found a lot of posts from you in various threads, bemoaning the lack of love for Sultans :lol: - this could well be the start of the Sultans "love in". Assuming I like them, that'll be me, Antag, and PhilKing quietly loving them...)

BigB - I still reckon Apaches is what you want, even after all my searching - but I would recommend doing a bit of a search yourself if you've got time, there's some VERY interesting and useful stuff on here.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 12:55:50 PM by AndyR »
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Philly Q

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2010, 01:07:40 PM »
(By the way, I found a lot of posts from you in various threads, bemoaning the lack of love for Sultans :lol: - this could well be the start of the Sultans "love in". Assuming I like them, that'll be me, Antag, and PhilKing quietly loving them...)

Yeah, I keep plugging away on the Strat and Tele threads, hoping someone will pipe up about the more obscure models.  Why risk big bucks on an "experiment" when someone else can do it for you?  :wink:
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Antag

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2010, 01:09:47 PM »
* Sultans : 1 => Antag, anything to say ? Or anyone else on the difference between Apaches and Sultans ?

And still no one about Trilogy or Sinners... Does anyone use'em ? :wink:

Nope, never tried or even heard Apaches & as I posted earlier, I'm not really a strat afficionado :lol:

FWIW, I have a Trilogy neck in one of my Charvels.  IMHO it's a better match for my favourite Holy Diver bridge than the Irish Tours in the stock HD HSS set.  Just about the perfect single coil to match with a thick, powerful bridge pickup. At some point I will swap out the unplated Slowhand mid/neck from my Jackson for Trilogies but it's some way down my list of priorities...
BKPs: HD, MM, NB, PK, CS, Ab (b&n); Am (b only); VHII, Tril (n only); IT, Slow, Sult (m&n)

Antag

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2010, 01:12:09 PM »
Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)

I'll be interested to know how those turn out.  I've had vague ides of getting a set of Sultans for my Robert Cray Strat, just to have something really clean, old-fashioned and "pure" sounding.  Maybe with a baseplate on the bridge for a hint of Tele.

Yeah, me too.  I'd love to hear how a "proper" strat player finds them.  As I said at the top of the thread, if I ever bought a "real" strat, Sultan's' would be my first choice simply because of how much I love the neck...
BKPs: HD, MM, NB, PK, CS, Ab (b&n); Am (b only); VHII, Tril (n only); IT, Slow, Sult (m&n)

AndyR

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2010, 01:19:13 PM »
(By the way, I found a lot of posts from you in various threads, bemoaning the lack of love for Sultans :lol: - this could well be the start of the Sultans "love in". Assuming I like them, that'll be me, Antag, and PhilKing quietly loving them...)

Yeah, I keep plugging away on the Strat and Tele threads, hoping someone will pipe up about the more obscure models.  Why risk big bucks on an "experiment" when someone else can do it for you?  :wink:

There weren't quite as many Philly posts about "no Sultan love" as there were 38th Beatle posts about Apaches :lol:

Actually, there seem to be a fair number of "my ITs can do that" posts from me! :lol:

Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)

I'll be interested to know how those turn out.  I've had vague ides of getting a set of Sultans for my Robert Cray Strat, just to have something really clean, old-fashioned and "pure" sounding.  Maybe with a baseplate on the bridge for a hint of Tele.

Yeah, me too.  I'd love to hear how a "proper" strat player finds them.  As I said at the top of the thread, if I ever bought a "real" strat, Sultan's' would be my first choice simply because of how much I love the neck...


It was actually your comments spread around the place that went some way towards me considering them (no pressure :lol:) so many thanks there :D

Then, somewhere I found the thread where we were all waffling at someone else, and in the middle of it PhilKing installed them in an HSS strat. He came back with an understated "WOW!" sort of post after he'd done it - that almost decided me on the spot.

When I woke up this morning I knew I was going for them anyway, so I put the order in...
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38thBeatle

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2010, 03:43:57 PM »
I really don't know what you mean Andy.

Actually, it is strange that you have ordered a set of Sultans at the same time that I have though in my case they are for a friend of mine for his Strat and the choice was arrived at by my knowing his tastes and seeking the advice of Tim. I am really looking forward to hearing my friend's views as he is not a huge Strat fan. 
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PhilKing

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Re: Still have this guitar that needs some BKPs...
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2010, 03:46:19 PM »
Just to keep you reassured, they are still my favourite set (though the new 69's are a close second!).  I'm going to be pulling out a lot of things to play over the next few weeks, just becasue I want to reorganize my stuff.  I have the 1953 Les Paul conversion with Black Dogs out the other day and was really loving that too.  The reason I like the Sultans is that they have all the classic rock strat tones in them when cranked, but have a great tone when you take away the gain for a clean blues sound.  In fact they are very addicting to play through a Fender amp with no distortion.  I know mine have the Stormy Monday in the bridge, so I can't really say what a full set would sound like, but I think that given the sounds you are after, you will be playing this guitar the most!
So many pickups, so little time