Intonation, Nuts. G-strings.

[Keven]

Hello! i have a quite small question but it's something i've been wondering.

i recently did some intonating work on a punk rocker's gibson les paul. the guy usually plays with 10-46, but sometimes likes it nice and heavy with 12-54.. he's going into some studio work in 3 weeks and will make me do a full job on the guitar to make it sound in tune. all in standard tuning too... he doesn't really take much care of the guitar and his band is just starting to make it big locally, so i'm hoping to knock some sense into his head about maintaining his axe.

now, this les paul has a problem. the high E won't intonate properly, it's flat and the string is the shortest it can be. it's currently a .10....turning the saddle around won't fix the problem. will raising the gauge of the top strings give me a better chance at intonating it properly? or is it the opposite and going lower like .09 will fix it? i know les pauls are 24.75'' scale so in my logic, i'd set the guitar up for 11-49 and it should do the trick, it's a good middle ground between 10-46 and 12-54... i need to settle on a correct string gauge for him and for the intonation.. but that's where i spotted a possible issue...

the neck is nice and straight after the setup i did today, with decent relief for a guy that plays hard but the nut looks awfully low for the GBE strings but it's nice for the EAD strings... the angle is kinda shoddy though, the strings just make contact at the groove and kinda float over the rest of the nut... doesn't seem very good to me. (contact is about half and half. ..half of the nut holds the string, while the other half just floats over... with a very rounded kinda shape...) it seems like it's been sanded from above.

is this common gibson practice or the work of a shoddy tech? i don't see many gibsons at my shop.... but something tells me the nut needs some work. (it was bought around 3-4 years ago) i think the poor high e intonation is probably due to that nut. there's some open fret buzz on the G string when i hit it relatively hard. doesn't hurt sustain, but it's your typical G string zing sound that's not very pleasing for the ears, the B and E string also have this kind of buzz. it's not as obvious, but i can tell it might bug a discerning player.

anyway. hints, advice, help? much appreciated!

[impossible]

Gibson have been filing the tops of their nuts (har har) hard for a good few years now. It almost looks like the string just sits in a knife-edge at the front of the nut, right? The string needs to be touching the very front edge of the nut surface in its slot (e.g. where the fingerbaord starts) if it isn't for some reason, the intonation will never be right (although it should actually read SHARP in that case)

Hope that helps. I never like the Gibson nuts, for shaping or material. Much prefer some Tusq or occasionally bone.

[Keven]

hmm. nope, they did sit very nicely at the edge of the nut from the fingerboard.

I'll have to try with fresh strings, it's pretty hard to intonate a guitar with old rusty strings.

[Philly Q]

the angle is kinda shoddy though, the strings just make contact at the groove and kinda float over the rest of the nut... doesn't seem very good to me. (contact is about half and half. ..half of the nut holds the string, while the other half just floats over... with a very rounded kinda shape...) it seems like it's been sanded from above.

is this common gibson practice or the work of a shoddy tech? i don't see many gibsons at my shop.... but something tells me the nut needs some work.

That sounds like a very typical Gibson nut - they file away the back edge of the nut really aggressively so the string is only sitting on an area a couple of mm wide.  The slots tend to be very shallow too, the strings almost feel like they'll pop out if you hit 'em hard.

I know in theory the slot-depth only needs to be a little more than half the diameter of the string, but if the slots are cleanly cut it doesn't matter at all if the strings sit completely below the top surface of the nut.

I much prefer the PRS approach, even though it looks a bit clunky - the strings sit in nice deep slots, the full width of the nut.

None of which helps with your problem I'm afraid, I'm just venting...

[MDV]

If a high e (and/or a d) are intonating flat when the saddle is fully forward then about the only things you can do are - make sure the neck is flat, but youre not a noob and did that, and, displeasingly enough, raise the action.

Its probable from your description that the bridge has been positioned a little too far back. I've seen that on a gibson (sg) before.

A thicker string (which will probably have a higher restoring force will have greater proportional increase in tension when fretted, if its flat now, see hookes law). Its worth a shot but dont expect miracles.

[Ratrod]

Intonation should always be done with a fresh set of strings that are properly stretched.

Sometimes high E's just won't intonate on some guitars.

If he switches between 10's and 12's set up for 11's.

Neck relief can be tricky in this situation. I'd leave that quite roomy at .013" (depending on the guitar)

That nut looks like a typical 90's Gibbo nut. I hate those. Some weren't cut that well either. Pics would help.

[Keven]

he's bringing it back to me in two weeks or so for a real setup. setting the guitar up with a 11-49 gauge with a wound 3rd will help alot of things. he's a rythm player that plays mostly power chords and bangs hard. i think that the wound 3rd will snap alot less often than a plain third (which was one of his complaints)

thanks for the heads up guys. good to know i'm not entirely crazy. some people don't maintain their instruments so well. ever since he had the guitar he changed strings only one at a time when it broke... so the guitar itself doesn't really have a fixed setup :( that'll change!

[impossible]

Always set intonation with fresh strings! (stretched a bit as Ratrod said). If you set the intonation with older strings then when you restring it may come up different, therefore the only "right" way to do it (so you can recreate it on purpose) is with fresh strings.

If he breaks strings a lot, do check where they're breaking in case there's a sharp saddle or something. Aggressive playing can do it but don't rule out problematic string break-points! A consistent pro setup is all in the detail 

[MDV]

Bear in mind strings dont stretch in, the bend in - where the string takes any angle over the bridge or nut, note that a new set curves over these points - because the metal is still 'trying' top be straight - it takes either some time or some force to make that curve an angle, and until it is the intonation will be sharper, so it wont help to ensure that that strings are new in this case.

As a general tip - bend your strings in by forcing these angles into them with a hardish object (like the handle of a screwdriver) - stretching has the effect of doing the same, which is why it seems to work, but it also shaves a bit of life off the string.

[impossible]

Bear in mind strings dont stretch in, the bend in - where the string takes any angle over the bridge or nut, note that a new set curves over these points - because the metal is still 'trying' top be straight - it takes either some time or some force to make that curve an angle, and until it is the intonation will be sharper, so it wont help to ensure that that strings are new in this case.

As a general tip - bend your strings in by forcing these angles into them with a hardish object (like the handle of a screwdriver) - stretching has the effect of doing the same, which is why it seems to work, but it also shaves a bit of life off the string.

But surely that bend moves every time you tune the string so all you're doing is putting a kink in your string? I do bend wound strings over the saddle on acoustics and bass guitars but only because those strings need to anchor well and stay there.

I think the truth is that there is no such thing as "perfect intonation" whether it's affected by the age of your strings or the pressure you play with, or if it's good in one part of the neck but not another. That's why we came up with string compensation, and why newer concepts like compensated nuts are coming around.

The only way to make every note play perfectly in tune is to use gut frets on a lute, and set each one by hand for each string. . . YOURSELF, for your own playing style. :lol:

[MDV]

No guitar has perfect temper, no, but the kink (or formation of the kink) is whats going on when guitars settle into tune, provided the neck is stable (which is another thing to watch out for - especially changing tuning or guage - relief)