Need new preamp valves

[Keven]

To be fair, a tube i was replacing (and the worst culprit of squealing) was a JJ. so the kid didn't want anymore JJ's in there. one bitten twice shy eh!

seems like tubes have alot of opinions these days. i was speaking to an old amp tech (over 70 years old!) and he was saying he couldn't get over how much Ruby power tubes had improved in the past three years. i was a bit surprised, but this guy has usually been right on the money for all problems i've encountered...

what makes a tube junk anyhow?

[hunter]

Tubes are very different, depending on which amp they're in, especially Pres.

JJs are Ok, but I feel they tend to sound nasal in higher gain circuits. They do have low noise though.

I love Tung-Sols for when it should be transparent and tight, but they shouldn't be in cascade follower stages, as they can't take the voltages or something. I would also say that 1 in 3 is microphonic, so you could have to swap around which goes in V1/V2.

If you're looking for a thicker tone, go with Penta G12AX7M (they are selected/relabeled Groove Tube Mullard RIs).

In V1 I really like the New Sensor Mullard RI, they are expensive but a great tube.

In Phase inverters I settled to only use Chinese 9th gen now. I usually go fot Penta from Doug's Tubes.

I suggest to get in touch with Doug (Doug's Tubes). He is the Tim Mills of tubes, if you shoot him an email with what you want, he will tell you what to get and ship you great quality. I also ever only got PERFECTLY matched power tubes from him and never did one of his pres go bad. His prices are even after shipping and customs still competitive, too.

[Twinfan]

Its no secret that I don't like JJ valves, I find their ECC83 to be flat, boring, totally uninspiring and able to make an otherwise good amp sound like sh*t.  Last time I used the EH ECC83, I thought it was a much better valve than the JJ.

I always tell people to get NOS (or part-used) valves - Mullard, Brimar, Mazda, RCA, GE, Siemens - there are any number of great old ECC83s you can pick up on ebay for the same price as you'd pay for current production stuff.

I find it surprising that you (Dave) are happy with JJ valves - you spend a fortune on guitars/pickups/amps/speakers then kill the tone with those valves.  Have you tried some NOS preamp valves in your Orion? - I bet it would take that amp to a new level.

I've got some old Brimars that came in a Klipp I bought several years ago.  They're dull, flat and have no life.  Just because they're old doesn't mean they're good!  I have some old Phillips valves in my 45/100 that also came in a second hand amp, but they don't sound any better than JJs to me.  I'm only using them to "use them up"  :lol:

Martin has a few old valves too, Mullards etc, and neither of us were that impressed.  We found you could get the same sort of tone out of a decent, lowish gain, new valve.  Such as the JJs!

It's horses for courses, and everyone should try what's available out there if they can, but I personally do not feel the need to spend a bloody fortune hunting down 60 year old valves that are a complete gamble.

Also, in my experience I've found EH valves to be more prone to microphonics and generally cr@pping out when I don't want them to.  The Tung Sols are OK, if a little brighter than JJs, but they didn't blow me away.

As a final note, Martin uses JJs in all his amp builds.  He's built a fair few now, and obviously he and I use several of his models fitted with JJs for gigging, and I've yet to hear anyone say his amps sound like sh*t......

[Matt77]

I second this. I have tried Mullards in both the pre-amp and output stage of my MJW. They do have a different sound, but it's not something that can't be achieved without a bit of EQ or trying a lower gain valve in the pre-amp section
.

[hermetico]

The same valve can sound amazing in some amp and awful in other. Even, same valve can sound fine in one position and wrong in other. Also, a valve can sound good if there is only one but bad if you put two or more of same type in different positions.

There are valves that most of people says "that's the valve" and, there are valves that most of people says "this is cr@p" but, experimentation gives you the real thing.

To me, there are two cathegory of amps: vintage and modern.
Vintage were designed thinking on the valves that were available at that time so, NOS valves usually do the trick.
Modern amps are usually designed taking into account current production valves and, usually, the more reliable AND cheap of them.
So, you can be surprised swapping cheap valves with expensiver valves and go wrong with the tone.

Also, there are two main voices: american and british. For american voiced amps, you wanted some valve with similar specifications to RCA types. for british ones, you usually want Mullard like.

Short history:
I swapped the EL84 tubes in two amps, a Koch Studiotone combo (mine) and in a Fender Blues jr. (friend's).
The Koch had TAD EL-84M stock (thick as a brick but no character), I throw there a TAD EL84-STR (some kind of mix between a JJ and an M) and the sound was improved.
So, I tried to do the same in the Blues Jr. No way, it sounded as cr@p. I checked then JJ's there and same results. Then, because it was the only other valve pair I had around, I tried a Sovet EL84 (one of the cheapests ones) and, man, the amp suddently went alive and sounding as heaven.
Swapped also chinesse valves with other types and, I finally left the chinesse there in positions V2 and V3, while the Tung Sol did the trick in V1 for the Blues Jr, I had to left the original 7025-Highgrade in the Koch, since the Tung Sol sounded way brighter and the JJs way darker.

[martinw]

Without wishing to get too drawn into the "best valve" morass.....! 
The thing with valves, which some people seem to miss, is that they are very subjective.
There are no "good" or "bad" valves. (With the obvious exclusion of particularly noisy, unreliable or weak examples).

The same's very much true of speakers, and by extension, amps in general.

I find it hard to reconcile HTH's view of JJ's with my own experience, which of course proves nothing except what I just said!  :) I like JJ's, and use them pretty much exclusively, unless asked to use somehting else, which rarely happens. We used them virtually exclusively at Matamp and went through boxloads, with very few problems.

I've done direct back-to-back comparisons with JJ's and healthy (Alan!) NOS Mullards, as well as other brands, and in my own amps, which could have anything they wanted, I use JJ's.

The answer is: buy some and try them. Use the ones you prefer.  8)

[HTH AMPS]

I don't subscribe to the school of thought whereby if it's old, it MUST be good.  It just happens that the valves made during the golden era of their production also happen to be the best that were ever made in terms of tone and also reliability.  You might spend £60.00 on a NOS Mullard ECC83, but that valve will last a LONG time - I can't imagine any current production ECC83s still going strong in an amp 30 years down the line.  Actually, I KNOW they won't be, because I see failures all the time.

The Brimars you had may have been at the end of their useful life - even NOS valves wear out eventually.  Your description of the tone of Brimars is nothing like what I've found; and I have lots of Brimar ECC83s.  I find that they have a signature tone (focused/pronounced midrange grind plus an aggressive overall attack) that is consistent; much like most brands of NOS valves.  My own experience does not reflect that its a cr@p shoot, I know exactly what Brimars or Mullards will sound like when I buy them, same with the American valves.

I personally think that the difference between some nice NOS ECC83s and ANY current production valve is night and day - like the difference between DiMarzios and BKPs.  DiMarzios are nice enough and will get the job done, but BKPs will give you that last bit of tone nirvana.

It would be a boring world if we all thought the same thing.  Plus, it leaves more nice old valves for me  8)

[hermetico]

Of current production 12AX7 valves:

Ei ones seem to be the best sounding BUT, production is highly inconsistent so, you can get the best or the worst valve in your buy.

TAD 7025-S (Mullard style), seems to be more voiced like Telefunken ones (instead of Mullard) so, it works really nice in american voiced amps and, specially good in blackface types.

Tung Sol, is one of the best soundings, very 3D but, EQ is altered to boost bass and trebles. It's some kind of Mullard sound with the added gain of a chinesse valve.

JAN Philips 12AX7WA sounds good, but it's very sensitive to amp's EQ, sounds better with tone controls in mid position. Can go boomy with wrong EQ. (not new production but, easy to get)

Sovtek 12AX7-LPS, nice sounding valve but, very prone to microphony so, a bad election for combo amps.

Mullard re-issue, sounds good bad flat compared to Tung Sol (as NOS Mullards do). Better for hi-fi applications.

Svetlana 12AX7, smoother than EH, less gain than Tung Sol, well balanced.
 
JAN Philips 5751, probably the  best souding one in simple designed amps, lower gain but whole tone.

Sovtek 5751, in Reverb Drivers or for Tweed like amps (12AY7 or 12AT7 substitute)

Tesla JJ/ECC83S, well balanced, not harmonically rich, durable. Some kind of flat valve that helps to better compare the changes of swapping other positions.

Electro Harmonix 12AX7, Well balanced, good in any position, the valve that works wether other valves don't do it, the valve that solves microphony issues. So, a good valve to have always in stock, as a last resource.

Sovtek 12AX7WA/WB, very poorly sounding, low gain, very reliable (usually stock in some new amps).


This all, more or less, is sums up the info I`ve got from reviews from The Tube Store.
TAD reviews could be biassed, since they re-label valves and they design some others.
Same with Harma, Groove Tubes or any other re-labeler.
The reviews of The Tube Store match my own experience with some of those valves.

And, as I said, there is no recipe for every disease so, you have to experience your self how do like the changes.

[_tom_]

This thread shows that I forgot how much of a hassle buying new valves is :x

tbh I'm quite happy with the current tone so just tempted to get TADs again.. I've heard there are better for Laneys though which was why I asked, but I don't really know what I want to change about the tone anyway :lol:

leerocker, are you using the EH valves in a Laney?

[HTH AMPS]

Ei ones seem to be the best sounding BUT, production is highly inconsistent so, you can get the best or the worst valve in your buy.

I've not sure that Ei ECC83s are still being made? - about 6 years back they were all the rage (their EL84s too).

Their quality control was absolutely cr@p and all the ones I ever bought went noisy or microphonic very quickly.  I even went as far as buying some primo-tested ones from The Tube Store that were tested for low microphonics - they did sound pretty close to my old Mullards and Brimars, but the midrange wasn't quite as crunchy.  That was until they went microphonic a month or two later.

If they could have improved the QC, these would have been killer ECC83s.

I had similar results with their EL84 - great tone; for a few weeks.

[hermetico]

Ei ones seem to be the best sounding BUT, production is highly inconsistent so, you can get the best or the worst valve in your buy.

I've not sure that Ei ECC83s are still being made? - about 6 years back they were all the rage (their EL84s too).

Their quality control was absolutely cr@p and all the ones I ever bought went noisy or microphonic very quickly.  I even went as far as buying some primo-tested ones from The Tube Store that were tested for low microphonics - they did sound pretty close to my old Mullards and Brimars, but the midrange wasn't quite as crunchy.  That was until they went microphonic a month or two later.

If they could have improved the QC, these would have been killer ECC83s.

I had similar results with their EL84 - great tone; for a few weeks.

Yes, as far as I know they are dicontinued but, you can still grab some with all the risks you already experienced.

[gwEm]

In V1 I really like the New Sensor Mullard RI, they are expensive but a great tube.

I like this tube too

[Davey]

Ei's are not being made anymore, but i know of a store, that has a limited amount (now, dont ask how many) of them in stock for about 26€ + tax & shipping a pop (ecc81 82 and 83) a quartet of el-84 for 90, kt-90 for 265 .. or a pair of siemens el-34's for 200

they stock a cr@pload of =C='s wither ... related to that, what to expect from =C= 12ax7's ?

[d1dsj]

I have a box with just a couple of spare pre valves and I just found a couple of Ei's, where were they made? Until this thread I didn't know of them! Also, I didn't know that Harma were rebranded valves either! 

[Davey]

Ei were made in Niš, Serbia (Yugoslavia).. stopped production in.. '06 .. they're more or less upgrades of telefunken audio tubes.. high quality .. aparently :P :D