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Author Topic: A practice tip you may not have thought of...  (Read 5281 times)

Dr. Stein

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A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« on: May 02, 2010, 11:22:37 PM »
... Weightlifting.

No, seriously. In my capacity as wannabe-athlete I've been doing quite a bit of S&C recently focussing on olympic lift derivatives, which really build up your grip strength. Turns out that translates into massively improved finger and wrist strength when playing. I've barely touched a guitar the last month or two but coming back to it this weekend suddenly I can trill quite convincingly and even reach chords I couldn't in the past. Obviously my timing is still all over the place but I'm feeling in control of my fingers in a way I never have before.

Anyone else had similar results?

Johnny Mac

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 07:54:33 AM »
I would disagree with you Doc. When I was putting myself through the mangle to learn legato techniques, supple tendons are a must. In my work I have to do a fair  amount of heavy lifting and it really messed my arms up. Also the lorry I was driving 3.5 years ago had a strong 12 speed gearbox which used to hurt my wrists and forearms. I think this was due to the sheer amount of practise I was doing and my tendons were stretched. Other techniques on the guitar like as you say, trilling may benefit from it. I've had to change the way I lift heavy objects to protect my left forearm. Which is why I always get help pulling my Koch out of my car!  :P

Good luck with the weightlifting.  
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 07:56:57 AM by Johnny Mac »
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Lucifuge

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2010, 12:00:00 PM »
Actually, one thing that could have made a difference, apart from the weightlifting, was that you also said you hadn't played guitar much for about a month, and sometimes having a break from playing a lot can actually help

I've found quite often that I've been practicing a lot, trying to get something right and just not managing it, but then when I took a break because I was on holiday or something, when I got back I could suddenly play it and it seemed much easier.

Maybe sometimes the things you are practicing need time to sink into your fingers (or your mind) and some time away from the guitar is the best way to do it.

JDC

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 01:31:29 PM »
I usually play better if I haven't played for a while, johnny how often did you lift the heavy things? If it was every day then the muscle wouldn't have had enough chance to grow back bigger and stronger.

Saw a thing the other day on grip strength and that we don't work the opposing muscle, the solution being to putting elastic bands round your fingers. Makes me wonder if it would improve my playing or reducing chances of injury.

Tellboy

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 01:56:44 PM »
I've found quite often that I've been practicing a lot, trying to get something right and just not managing it, but then when I took a break because I was on holiday or something, when I got back I could suddenly play it and it seemed much easier.

Maybe sometimes the things you are practicing need time to sink into your fingers (or your mind) and some time away from the guitar is the best way to do it.

Yes - that seems to happen to me.
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Dr. Stein

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 02:45:21 PM »
Definitely time away can help, I've certainly found that in the past. This is different though - with feeling stronger I feel like I have more accurate control of my finger movements. It's my general dexterity that's been improving.

I guess it will depend how you do it - gripping a bar is quite different to gripping a koch after all...

Philly Q

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 06:01:55 PM »
I've mentioned this before so apologies for repetition, but I read an interview with Joe Perry (during his muscly phase in the '90s).  He said that he would stop training a few weeks before a tour because doing weights made his hands and wrists feel tighter and stiffer.

Not saying that's true for everyone.   I don't exercise enough (OR practice enough) to know from experience!
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Fourth Feline

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2010, 06:06:13 PM »
... Weightlifting.

No, seriously. In my capacity as wannabe-athlete I've been doing quite a bit of S&C recently focussing on olympic lift derivatives, which really build up your grip strength. Turns out that translates into massively improved finger and wrist strength when playing. I've barely touched a guitar the last month or two but coming back to it this weekend suddenly I can trill quite convincingly and even reach chords I couldn't in the past. Obviously my timing is still all over the place but I'm feeling in control of my fingers in a way I never have before.

Anyone else had similar results?

I would strongly agree ;  as my own Weighlifting/ Kettlebell / Deadlifting endevours - seem to be great at hard wiring the neural pathways - and instilling the ablity to use the tendons and fibres in a relaxed and efficient way.

I can see Joe Perry's point - as a general Gym Bunny, but in a more athletic context, very differenet methods are employed on what may appear to be much of the same 'Hardware'.

I think people outside the 'game' seem to forget that Olympic / skill orientated lifting , is a form that requires total recruitment to flow seemlessly into  total suppleness and relaxation of those same fibres and neural circuits.   I move a lot more relaxed and efficiently in my Jazz / Chord melody playing, for having practiced Oly style lifts the same day / week / life.

It may seem like a trite example, but If I Deadlift / snatch / Clean and press with a grip that has to constantly move between 'loose' and 'crushing' then back again - and ( after a cup of tea and half an hour's hand rest )  the way that relaxation and efficiency  FEELS  on the guitar becomes so hard wired and intuitive that it is a delight to behold.

It's also like the loaded stretching aspects of our ( brief) warm up , in that you think you are relaxing the hip flexors into the deep squat - until you then hold a moderately heavy bar in a partial / static position,  put the bar back in the rack - Then feel how truly supple the stretch is without the weight of the bar.  

The biggest common factor between the guitar fretboard and the discipline of Olympic lifting / speed Athletics - being mostly about the common need to re-educate the nervous system to 'fire' and desist at will.  The way that (after some time ) it becomes so intuitive and hard wired - that  it happens without too much concious effort.

See here how our latest Olympic hopeful ( Zoe Smith ) applies looseness ; when the bar is 'recieved' at the shoulder, her hands are bent fully back, with open fingers - and the general shift between tight and loose is greatly emphasised in the entire move . I chose a 'dainty' example - to prove the fact that relaxation comes before tension in truly efficient neaural application.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRFK1BMKaRo

Likewise, fretboard agility and subtleties being a great model for learning how to operate the rest of the human body as a larger working unit.

I may be biased, but I think you have a great hobby there !  :lol:
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 06:18:28 PM by Fourth Feline »

tomjackson

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 08:40:58 PM »

I also like to look at snatch clips on the internet, it really does help the Jazz flow 8)

gordiji

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 09:48:39 PM »
i'm with johnny mac regarding legato, some techniques need a very relaxed and light touch left hand. that said
heavy left hand technique can be aided by any exercise that increases grip strength, this can be useful especially
for bending strings.dick dale said he uses all the strength in is forearm on strings up to 18 top e! he certainly has a powerful sound.
conclusion , if you play different styles ,strength exercises or manual work can be good or bad

Johnny Mac

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 10:10:11 PM »
I usually play better if I haven't played for a while, johnny how often did you lift the heavy things? If it was every day then the muscle wouldn't have had enough chance to grow back bigger and stronger.

I used to work on sites hod carrying, digging footings, with heavy lifting all day everyday but that was 8 years ago. I don't think it done my hands and arms much good at all at the time in regard to guitar playing. I still have to use a lot of muscle in my job now but I have techniques to take most of the strain off my left arm.( :lol:) I think that old  lorry gearbox was bad for it at first too but after a few months my left arm tendons got stronger. The legato practise I was doing in the first position on the D&G strings were on frets 2,4,6. Hammering on is hard enough at that stretch at first but pulling off is a killer. So suppleness was the key I found. I don't practise it like I used to, just warm up using them now.


I agree gordiji,you put it better than I could.
Tom, very dry!  :lol:
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Fourth Feline

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 11:05:01 PM »
i'm with johnny mac regarding legato, some techniques need a very relaxed and light touch left hand. that said
heavy left hand technique can be aided by any exercise that increases grip strength, this can be useful especially
for bending strings.dick dale said he uses all the strength in is forearm on strings up to 18 top e! he certainly has a powerful sound.
conclusion , if you play different styles ,strength exercises or manual work can be good or bad


The main benefit of the sort of 'sport' focused lifting I referred to ( and indeed many Martial arts )  is that it  teaches you to maintain  relaxation when appropriate - more than it encourages you to rely on tension / strength alone.  To be " whip loose" as one strength coach once put it .

More as a way to practice relaxation and timing  under stress - as opposed to encouraging a 'heavy hand' on the guitar or  Olympic Barbell .   Your technique reveals itself the most when your strength / grip starts to fail .  Remember that old Bruce Lee moto:

" The less effort you make, the faster and more powerful you will be".

I thought  Zoe was a notably good example - as due to her admirable temprament, she usually goes about her sport with such gentle composure, you would think she was making a cup of tea. Very 'Feline'  like in her approach .

I was however, bracing myself for the first 'Snatch' comment  :lol: - but at least Tom is getting his 'grip work' in somehow .  :)

The 'sweaty stuff' is also great for clearing any creative / cerebral 'block' you may have, as it's great to have to focus on such a pure and single pointed objective for a while.  Each of the two pursuits feeds the other very nicely.

I remember some reference to the same in in Miyamoto Mushashi's classic of martial strategy -  the  " Book Of Five Rings" - where he recomends that anyone wanting to learn  effective Warrior skills, should first learn to play the guitar ( guitar being the word given in modern translations ).  

Relaxation  being something that we often only really feel for the first time - when there is no more tension in us to resist with.  

 :)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 11:11:14 PM by Fourth Feline »

ToneMonkey

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2010, 12:28:00 PM »
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Dr. Stein

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 01:31:02 PM »
I was however, bracing myself for the first 'Snatch' comment  :lol: - but at least Tom is getting his 'grip work' in somehow .  :)

The 'jerk' ones can't be far off now...  :lol:

It's fairly well documented that stronger muscles are generally able to perform even small movements faster and more accurately - which is all there really is in the 'light/heavy hands' distinction. More accurate hands are lighter when they can me, and heavier when they need to be.

The possible problem here is overworking the grip muscles - a lot of bodybuilders/gun polishing types seem to be holding weights for hours on end sometimes with no specific objectives. Couple that with an hour or two playing guitar every day and you just don't get a chance to recover. Even from the stuff I do I find I need a day to really feel loose again.

Fourth Feline

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Re: A practice tip you may not have thought of...
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 02:16:59 PM »

The possible problem here is overworking the grip muscles - a lot of bodybuilders/gun polishing types seem to be holding weights for hours on end sometimes with no specific objectives.


How wonderfully (and accurately ) put !  :lol:

That is why I love the ethos of Olympic style lifting - and it's portable relation ,  Kettlebell useage :  in that one spends a lot of the overall training time in a week  practicing the specific moves a few times ( as opposed to 'working out' ) - then you walk away and repeat later .   The grip and nervous sysytem never get 'fried' - and new records are acheived / sustained whilst doing the bulk of your brief 'practice' sessions at 75-85% of ypur 1RM.

I only wish I had discovered this aspect of the 'Iron Game' decades ago. It seems ironic to be doing better at 50+ years old, than when I was much much younger.  

 I was following the example of 'Arnie' - when I should have been following the example of 'Zoe'.  :lol: