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Author Topic: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please  (Read 19677 times)

MDV

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BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« on: May 27, 2010, 04:35:28 PM »
Job done.

The data that you lot gave agreed very well with tims own estimates, and as far as I can tell from that agreement and the fact that all the data sets big enough to exhibit such behaviour did indeed fit a gausian means all indicators point to the project being a success.

More data would be needed to absolutely confirm this though, or so  the scientist in me says - the less thorough, more practical side of me says that we can be sure enough that its worked and theres enough to be getting on with.

The data gathered will be used in conjunction with Tims estimates (with an equal weighting of the data here and tims own values) to make the new sites EQ charts.

Give yourselves a pat on the back.


I'm going to compile a database of BK pickup EQs.

I am then going to average that data and see what the EQ, in bass/mid/treble comes out as.

The reasoning behind this stems from the phenomenon called 'wisdom of crowds', whereby if theres something observable or estimatable empirically by human senses and you get enough people to guess at it, the average of those guesses will be very close to the actual value, because the guesses are essentially randomised around the actual value with a certain distribution (standard deviation, that is) and all the guesses form a gausian, the mean of which is close to the thing being guessed at. The more guesses, the closer the mean is to the real value.

Obviously the tonal properties arent nearly as quantifiable as things this is normally used with, like weights and counting and what have you, and theres subjectivity and theres no definite answer to check this data against, but if enough people take part, and we get enough data then we can see if our cumulative experience of guitar sound and corresponding assessments of a pickups tone are sufficiently stochastic that all the other influences, like the guitars we've used the pickups in, the amps we've played them through, the strings we use, the rooms they've been played in, the players themeselves and so on and so forth will all be cancelled out and we may just end up with estimations of the pickups EQing that is accurate enough to be a useful guide.

So, if you own or have extensively played any BKs, please submit your EQ estimation for that pickup in Bass Mid Treble between 0 and 10.

The estimates do not have to be 'accurate': thats sort of the point, they just have to be what you think the pickup is; try and take into account everything else in your setup if you wish but theres no need - just tell me what your gut feel on it is. ANY honest and genuine answer is a correct one, there are no wrong ones, so please contribute if you can

----You can PM them to me if you want----

----------------------

Because its possible that our decisions and judgments might be swayed by the decisions and judgments of other participants, I'd appreciate it if you could provide your estimates without reading any other estimates. I cant make you not read them, obviously, but it works better for the methodology and results of this project if all results are totally independent, and that means not knowing what others have said.

So, again, if youre a little nervous about stating your estimates in the thread, feel free to PM them to me, I wont be offering any opinions one way or the other nor disclosing anything sent to me in a PM publically, and, this hasnt happened yet, but just in case:

The only restriction on discussion in this thread that I would appreciate it if people would observe is please do not comment on or criticise the estimates in the thread. Start another thread, I'm sure no one is offended by such discussions taking place in general (I know I'm not, and have participated in such 'discussions' :lol:), but we wouldnt want anyone to think that if they submit their estimates in here that they're going to get their heads bitten off or be pooh-poohed by anyone. That hasnt happened, and I ask that it doesnt (we're a nice bunch, so it shouldnt and I probably didnt have to ask; just making sure).

------------------

Dont overcomplicate things, or the results will end up meaningless. I'll keep tabs of the data and build up a spreadsheet of it, and when I think theres enough for it to be statistically significant I'll send it off to Tim to see if he thinks it looks sensible.

I find this quite interesting precisely because its not what this method is normally used for - the sound of a pickup may or may not be subjective, they will have their own response spectra that is pretty deterministic, but not many people would be bothered to look at, or take the time to create a fourier transform of the output of the pickup in controlled conditions (which would be little like how they would behave in a guitar anyway); rather the 0 to 10 thing is subjective, and how you weigh it against your previous experience is subjective, and the idea is (and the interesting bit to me) is whether all these subjectivities also cancel each other out along with all the different effects on the sound you ascribe to the pickup because of the range of stuff youve they've been used with, and whether you end up with something thats not objective per se from all this subjective data, but how representative of these few specific variables the results we get are within the chaos of dozens of others in thousands of permutations as experienced by hundreds of people, and whether in fact having so much chaos and so many other variables with so many sources actually helps make a better assessment of the pickups sound.

How representative they are will be decided by Tim and co. They may think that the data is horribly wrong, and we'll learn that in this instance at least, this method of trying to get representivity out of lots of subjectivity is flawed. On the other hand, if the data is good and looks good to Tim et al, then we can use it for the sites tone charts.

Anyway, enough prattle, please join in the construction of, I believe, the first user-group generated tone charts in the big wide pickup world :D
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 07:03:21 PM by MDV »

BigB

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2010, 06:28:07 PM »
The idea is interesting but I think the population will be too small to get  the required statistical "critical mass" effect.

But anyway:

Crawler bridge: B 5 - M 7 - T 6
Crawler neck:   B 6 - M 5 - T 5

BG F50s bridge: B 2 - M 6 - T 8
BG F50s neck : B 4 - M 6 - T 5

Totally subjective & on the fly rating,  as it came out after spending at most 25s thinking about it and not even trying to apply any ponderation of any kind (except for starting with the one pup I use the most and rating the others accordingly).

And now I hit the "post" button before I start overdoing it  :mrgreen:

Have: Crawlers, BGF 50/52s, Mules, ABomb, RiffRaff
Had : Slowhands (n&m), Trilogy (b)

Philly Q

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2010, 06:54:13 PM »
I assume you've already taken the stuff from this thread into account, Mark:

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19689.0
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

WhiteRam

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2010, 07:01:20 PM »
Cold Sweat Bridge:  B 6 - M 7 - T 9

Nailbomb Bridge:  B 6 - M 6 - T 7

Apache Neck:  B 6 - M 6 - T 4

WR
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MDV

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2010, 07:24:17 PM »
I assume you've already taken the stuff from this thread into account, Mark:

http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19689.0

Yep!

Started it way back then in that thread for my own amusement, but I overestimated the longevity of the thread and didnt get anywhere near enough data.

Spoke to Tim today to suggest this method for the tone charts for the site, and he likes the idea - he's struggled with the pros and cons of various ways of getting the tonechart numbers and using other measures as well in a way thats trustworthy and transferable from one guitar/setup to another and doesnt seem to have been satisfied with any of the conventional ways.

On the sample size; sample size is a matter of time in this case, and this threads gonna be stickied, so it has the time to gather the data, fret not! No pun!

Thanks for the numbers so far chaps, keep them coming!

BigB

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 12:22:24 AM »
(snip)
On the sample size; sample size is a matter of time in this case, and this threads gonna be stickied, so it has the time to gather the data, fret not! No pun!

Thanks for the numbers so far chaps, keep them coming!

Ok, send me some more BKPs so I can test them then :mrgreen:
Have: Crawlers, BGF 50/52s, Mules, ABomb, RiffRaff
Had : Slowhands (n&m), Trilogy (b)

ericsabbath

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2010, 07:10:29 AM »
Bridge
                    Bass   Mid   Treble   Output        
Holy Diver         6       6       7        M/H         fluid, chunky, warm top, very balanced voicing
Painkiller           4       9       8          H          tight, very middy, bright top, loud, clean, articulated
Cold Sweat       5       6       9        M/H         crunchy midrange, sparkly top, sharp sounding
Alnico Warpig    7       6       7          H           massive, grainy and full midrange, NOT dark at all
Miracle Man      7       5       9          H           focused, very punchy, grainy low mids, cutting treble
Nailbomb          6       4       8          H           focused, punchy, loud, controlled mids, bright top



Neck
                       Bass  Mids Treble   Output                
Cold sweat (n)     5      5       7        L/M         articulated, balanced, fluid, never muds up
Warpig (n)           6      6       5         H           fat, fluid, cleaner and darker voiced than the bridge model
Miracle Man (n)    6      5       6        M/H         very similar to the warpig neck
Nailbomb (n)        6      3       9         M           loud, sparkly top, aggressive 50's PAF on steroids tone
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 07:19:49 AM by Eric Hellstyle »
Riff Raff, Mules, Black Dog, VHII's, Cold Sweat

MDV

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 10:14:28 PM »
Cheers eric.

C'mon folks, join, theres no wrong answer in this - just say what you think the pickups EQ is!

MDV

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2010, 09:30:16 PM »
PM them to me if you like.

Alex

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2010, 12:31:45 PM »
I think a reason so few people have replied to this is that it is quite hard. You to know the instrument and the pickup very well, preferably with comparisons to other pickups.

That said, here is my opinion:

Holy Diver - B6 - M7 - H5. Output M; big and warm sound, not as much treble cut due to a round and warm top end.

Miracle Man - B5 - M4 - H7. Output H; tight and powerful low end (but not that big!). I found it in comparison very similar to a Seymour Duncan JB in the low end. Not that many mids (but not scooped), cutting treble.

Black Dog - B5 - M5 - H5. Output L/M. This one was the hardest to assess, because it has a powerful sound while not being that high in output and because it also has a lot more clarity than the more compressed pickups. It doesn't "boost" your guitar a lot.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 06:31:51 PM by Alex »
Current BKPs: Miracle Man, Nailbomb, Juggernaut, VHII
Past BKPS: Holy Diver, Trilogy Suite, Sinner, Black Dog

BigB

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 01:01:01 PM »
I think a reason so few people have replied to this is that it is quite hard. You to know the instrument and the pickup very well, preferably with comparisons to other pickups.

I think MDV tried to make clear that it needn't be "absolutely accurate" in any way - more of a subjective feeling, the important point being gathering as much data as possible so the Laws of Statistic can apply.

FWIW, I don't have the slightest idea how Crawlers would sound in another guitar (and mine is kinda peculiar), I just started with "how does the Crawler bridge in my guitars sounds to my hear" (started with this one because it's the one pup I use the most in my #1 guitar), then rated the other pups relatively. Took me less than one minute (I'd even say less than 30 seconds), and I deliberately hit the "send" button before I started thinking too much about it.

So come on peoples, don't be afraid of being wrong because there's no right or wrong here, just a quick & rough estimate of how you feel your pups sound.
Have: Crawlers, BGF 50/52s, Mules, ABomb, RiffRaff
Had : Slowhands (n&m), Trilogy (b)

38thBeatle

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2010, 03:46:06 PM »
I will try and have a go at this but it will be a few days before I get to it.
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BKP's: Apache, Country Boy, Slowhands.

MDV

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2010, 10:27:40 AM »
I think a reason so few people have replied to this is that it is quite hard. You to know the instrument and the pickup very well, preferably with comparisons to other pickups.

I think MDV tried to make clear that it needn't be "absolutely accurate" in any way - more of a subjective feeling, the important point being gathering as much data as possible so the Laws of Statistic can apply.

FWIW, I don't have the slightest idea how Crawlers would sound in another guitar (and mine is kinda peculiar), I just started with "how does the Crawler bridge in my guitars sounds to my hear" (started with this one because it's the one pup I use the most in my #1 guitar), then rated the other pups relatively. Took me less than one minute (I'd even say less than 30 seconds), and I deliberately hit the "send" button before I started thinking too much about it.

So come on peoples, don't be afraid of being wrong because there's no right or wrong here, just a quick & rough estimate of how you feel your pups sound.


Exactly right!

Cheers alex and 38th.

ericsabbath

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2010, 09:52:35 PM »
I think you should remove the sticky flag for a while
I guess most users here must be missing this thread cause we're not used to even look at the sticky topics on top when we access the forum  :?
Riff Raff, Mules, Black Dog, VHII's, Cold Sweat

MDV

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Re: BK Users EQ Charts - Your Experiences Please
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2010, 02:37:15 PM »
Fairly likely, I suppose, but I didnt sticky it, Tim did. I couldnt unsticky it even if I wanted to.

Besides, you've got to weigh it being noticed less often against it falling down the forum if I dont check in for a while and no one still posts in it.

And, its kind of a project in collaberation with BKP, its got tims support and might well end up being the data for the (much waited and asked for, might I remind everyone!!! ;)) site tone charts; it seems appropriate that its stickied.

I dunno. See what Tim think if he passes by it again.