Apaches - can't get them to sound good

[mrawlins]

Sorry to post this amongst the undeniably huge Apache fan club but I'm having a few problems with these pickups.

One year ago I replaced the whole pickguard/electronics in my 67 reissue Player's Strat with the full Apache set, hoping for a classier sound for recording. I recently started playing Hendrix covers with a band and the problems I was hearing in the studio are actually exaggerated live (due to greater volume and lack of ability to patch in a compressor or EQ etc.)

The main problem with the sound is that they are so percussive the pick attack is louder than the note. Aso the top E string is about half the volume of the G string. Overall the bass is weak and the sound is quite trebly even on neck pickup. But the percussiveness is what really grates my ear.

Having used many different amps and pedals with the band in rehearsal rooms, I still can't get a good sound out of this guitar. Frankly my '92 Mex Squier strat sounds better and the other members of the band agree.

Now I've read a few posts saying Apaches are quite hot - mine are very weak. The original pickups in the Players Strat were much hotter and also my Squier strat is much hotter (not a problem in itself, but I thought I'd mention it in case it shows a fault).

Can anyone tell me whether they recognise these symptoms?

Cheers all

Martin

BTW I use a Peavey Delta Blues at home and a JCM 900 at the rehearsal studio. The pickups were installed by Vintage and Rare in Bath.

[Twinfan]

Can you try them in your Squier Strat to see if it's the guitar at fault?  Sometimes some guitars are beyond help  :(

[mrawlins]

Well the guitar sounded good with the original pickups, I just wanted it to sound great  :lol:

I should say this is just with clean sounds, it performs better with a bit of drive.

[Twinfan]

In that case, I've no idea!  :lol:

[gingataff]

The sounds you describe seems like something is out of phase.
I don't suppose you could post a picture of the wiring could you?

[Roobubba]

The sounds you describe seems like something is out of phase.
I don't suppose you could post a picture of the wiring could you?

Indeed, sounds to me as though the installation isn't right - possibly...

Also a difference between the strings could be due to the height of the polepiece (or the height of the strings, or both). BKPs are certainly very sensitive to string-pickup distance (arguably more so than other pickups, if you read posts on these forums...).

Roo

[gingataff]

One of my guitars has (for some reason that I haven't managed to figure out) the middle single coil out of phase with the bridge humbucker and when I use them together the sound is exactly what you describe.

With high gain it's very bright but not too bad, but clean it's like an electric banjo playing through an AM radio in the nextdoor neighbours' garden on a summer evening.

[mrawlins]

Hi guys I just got back from rehearsal and it's late now (in Beijing) so I will take and post photos tomorrow.

Thanks for your replies!

Martin

[WhiteRam]

Hi mrawlins, there is something definitely wrong, I use an Apache neck in my H/S Strat 6 hours a day and know it like the back of my hand.  It is not percussive at all, it's very warm, full, deep, and transparently smooth, all this on the bottom end.

If you have the vintage staggered poles, then that could be why you're hearing the E being weaker than the G, for me it's the B that is weak and the G is always too dominate, I'm getting flat profile from now on.

Ya, nothing grating about the Apache, quite the opposite really.  The Apaches are not hot, they are a weak PU, they should be sounding very beautiful, open, transparent yet full.

Hopefully you can post up some good pics of the wiring, switch, and pot assembly.  If that is a MIM model, the pots & capacitors & output jack are poor quality. . . an upgrade to CTS short shaft 250K pots, switchcraft jack, and good capacitors will improve things, however from what you described there is a bigger problem.

WR

[38thBeatle]

Hi, I don't recognize the symptoms either- my Apaches are great. Warm and rounded.There must be something wrong though I too don't know what that is.

[mrawlins]

Hi, well as I mentioned I bought the pre wired pickguard from Bareknuckle so it includes the CTS pots etc.

Anyway please do have a look at the photos, maybe something wasn't wired up right from the beginning?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34346348@N06/?savedsettings=4684379366#photo4684379366

Sorry, it wouldn't let me put images into the post.

[WhiteRam]

Hi Martin, those photo's enlarge nicely and all could be seen.  The work is beautiful and it's all there and done properly, I'm going to assume you have good ground connection to the claw, the claw is the hardest to ground because the claw's nickel coating must be filed/scr@ped a wee bit where you solder the wire, I don't think this would cause your sonic problems, but worth doing/checking.

Here's my best guess, I notice on the Bridge Baseplate there is a ground going from the pickup's negative terminal to the baseplate.  There are arguements to whether this should be done or not, I've read both opinions and you can research the web too.  The arguements are some find attaching this wire can cause major noisy problems and might create a ground loop too. I tried a baseplate once and chose not to ground it, I did not have any problems or changes in noise or pickup performance.  

Lastly I notice your inner body cavity is not shielded with copper foil or shielding paint. . . I use shielding paint and then a ground wire from the volume pot soldered to a metal tab that is screwed into the shielding paint.  This is not necessary but just pointing that out, you do have all the minimum grounding points covered, although and again I can't see the claw's grounding and don't know if the nickel coating was scr@ped away from the wire's contacting solder point.

That's all I can offer from here, I might suggest you take it by Vintage and Rare as it were, unless it gets solved in this thread.  Good luck.  :)

WR

[Deadstar]

Hmmm odd problem, bkps are certainly clearer on the high end than most but not harsh normally.

Can't make it out from the pics but I'll presume you haven't done anything silly as the wiring looks pretty good - they are definitely 250k pots? as higher value pots make the sound a lot brighter and could be resulting in the shrillness you're getting - unless there's a crossed wire somewhere.

[AndyR]

Weird!

What you're describing sounds a little like what happened to my bridge pickup on an Epi LP when the cr@ppy switch died - drop in output, and what got through was significantly thinner sounding than the normal pickup sound (this was Mules). It took me a while to figure out it was the switch - I was sure it was the pickup.

If that sort of effect was applied to a staggered pole strat pickup, I guess the differences in volume between strings would start getting really noticable/unacceptable...

Anyway, I assume the "effect" is on all five switch positions? In other words, it's all pickups that seem naff?

If so, I would first suspect all solder joints in the switch->volume pot->jack socket chain. They look ok, but ... (I am the master of solder joints that look sh1t but are good... everytime I get dodgy joint, it's one of the ones that look ok!). After that I'd be looking at things that can affect all pickups equally - eg the jack-socket itself maybe, and conceivably the switch.

I'm also wondering, what's that dark patch in the photos, in the control cavity, roughly where the volume pot will be sitting when you put the scratchplate back in? I can't figure out what that might be...

I hope you get it sorted - it does not sound at all like what I understand Apaches to be... in fact, I've shied away from them so far because I've always suspected they might be a little too rounded and warm-sounding for my tastes...

[MDV]

There are a couple of things that I've heard that are consistent with this

Out of phase. Really, really sensitive to motion/touch of the sting, all top end and attack, can be grating sounding and brash

Near-broken connection. You can get it if some wires are just hanging on by a thread or if components (switches and pots) are knackered. Bassless, much less hot, tinny, cold, quiet, all attack, no note.

'Semi-short' if you will; a short thats making light contact, so it kinda doesnt totally short out.

Disconnected pickup, as in at the source, in the pickup. That is very unlikely, but I've had it with one pair of trilogies (something about new solder I seem to recall) a few years ago, and soldered the wire from the wind onto the wire proper again and it sorted it. (I've seen one USA fender where the wind wire and wiring wire were glued in place with solder applied....nowhere near each other!)

And at the extreme, a pickup will still make a sound thats not inconsistent with what you describe if its connected at live or ground, but not the other. Theres still a small signal.

The wiring looks neat with good soldering, so nothings obvious, and I dont know that switch off the top of my head, so I cant say if its all rightly wired, but the rest is fine, and the switch wiring looks about right so I would look to the other components, change them one at a time. If that doesnt work, I'd just touch a soldering iron to the contacts on the bottom of the pickup so it liquifies, and see if that works.