Username: Password:

Author Topic: Beano tone with es 335  (Read 6403 times)

ketot

  • Strawweight
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Beano tone with es 335
« on: October 12, 2010, 06:03:59 AM »
Hi, I have an epiphone sheraton (es 335 style guitar), and it currently has stock pickups.

I'm happy with the bridge pickup tone i can get, except for one thing, and it's gonna be really hard to put into words, but here it goes:

Sometimes with a good rig, when you play a chord (or anything more than one note at a time), you can count the number of strings being played and isolate out certain notes in your head. A good example of this is The Ocean by Led Zeppelin, and All Your Love by John Mayall with Clapton (right at the start of the solo where he plays those arpeggiated chords, count those notes!). When i try to do that with my pickups, it just gets all jumbled up

I'm trying to get a set of pickups that can do that, overdrive, but no mud, and I am convinced that BKPs can do that (generally, good pickups should be able to do that, no?). However, there's actually quite a lot of choice here for pickups, and this brings me to the main point:

Which set of pickups can get me the tone that Clapton gets on the Beano album? Note that I can already achieve this with my current pickups, and I want a set that can get me the same tone as well, just that with the ability to un-mud when playing more than one string. Being able to get Jimmy Page's tone at Led Zep's 1970 Royal Albert Hall concert would be cool too, but that might be a bit difficult, bearing in mind i have a semi hollow body guitar.

Speaking of getting slightly loud, i can also achieve Jimmy's tone with my rig, by virtue of cranking it up pretty loud (on a small 4 watt tube amp, the Vox ac4tv). But this would mean that im not getting as loud as the big amps, while still getting around the same kind of level of overdrive. Anyway, would i want to wax pot the pickups, if the max level of gain i go to is around jimmy page's level? I don't play anything heavier than that, and some say that unpotted pickups have better tone (also it's microphonic or something, and at a kings of leon concert, the guitarist was yelling into his pickup, and it was getting picked up. that was cool).

Another thing on potting, my stock pickups vibrate and put this low feedback (the bad kind) whenever i play too loud (ie 4 watts almost maxed, with an overdrive pedal with quite a lot of boost). I can kill the feedback by putting pressure on the pickup to stop it from vibrating. Just putting it out there, the more info the better, i guess.

Now back to tone: I only ever play with overdrive on the bridge, hardly ever play it clean. Neck pickup, well, the stock pickups are muddy as hell, to put it nicely, and thus i hardly ever play them. Don't sound good clean, but when i drive it a bit, i get this real woody/hollow tone which i like, and would love to be able to replicate. Also,  rhythm playing on the neck aint cool, due to, once again, muddy pickups. This one once again references the point where you can 'count the notes', it would be awesome to be able to play crunchy rhythm chords without muddying up.

this guy (also a forum member) in this video also gets some good tone on the neck pickup, some less aggressive blues  tone going on there, that's nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0-nrNYdbp0&feature=related

He's got Stormy Mondays (A4 magnets) i think, those sound good, not too polite, but not too rough, especially in the neck. Sounds like it could cop some good jazz tones too, which is a plus.

I'm cool with mixing and matching pickups, so something like a mule in the bridge and a stormy monday in the neck sounds tasty, but would a pickup thats too hot in the bridge really mud it up? semi hollows traditionally work well with low output pickups, would a Mule work well in the bridge? I dont really care for preserving the woodyness or the acoustics in the bridge, as, like i said before, i use it mainly for overdrive.

So, with all the info above, imma summarise it:
1. what pickups for Beano tone, thats the main tone i'm trying to replicate
2. should i wax pot the pickups




Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2010, 09:06:33 AM »
Greetings  :)

One really important thing to remember is that pickups alone will not bring the world to your fingertips  :lol:  The way you play, the way you set you gear, the quality of the acoustic tone of your guitar etc will all contribute to your overall tone.

BKPs will bring you more clarity, that's a given, and having had potted and un-potted pickups I would say if you're using the guitar for gigging go with potted.  It's just much less hassle and less to worry about dealing with on stage.  If you're purely playing at home, and/or have a super magnificient gutiar that you can really hear all the subtle tone textures of and want the finest 'feel' you can get, I'd go with unpotted.  All my opinion, obviously  :)

I'd go with AII Stormy Mondays as these are the pickups of choice for a 335-style guitar around here.  Also, if you want Beano tone, I've got closest in my guitars with AII PAF style pickups.  My Gibson Pearly Gates LP, with Seymour Duncan Custom Shop Pearly Gates pickups (AII magnets) does that tone a treat into the right amp  :D

AndyR

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4715
  • Where's all the top end gone?
    • My Offerings
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2010, 09:21:21 AM »
I'd second all of that.

I was thinking Stormy Mondays, although I've not tried them.

I can get passable Beano noises out of Mules in a Les Paul type, and Riff Raffs in a warm sounding SG. But that's a bonus for me, those guitars are aimed at a wide range of blues to 60s pop to classic rock stuff.

Welcome to the forum from me as well :D
Play or Download AndyR Music at http://www.alonetone.com/andyr

ketot

  • Strawweight
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2010, 10:25:10 AM »
 :D

from what i've read around this forum, AII SM blurs the bass, and people tend to stick with the AIV SM.

But I had a listen to a few clips of the SMs on youtube, and the bridge just sounds a bit tamed for my taste, which is why i was thinking something slightly hotter.

Riff Raff and the Mules, what's the diff between both of them, tone-wise? Riff Raffs would be slightly lower output, more rock and roll maybe? seems to be associated with chuck berry in the case of semi hollows, and angus young on the sg.

funny that mules don't get much mention in semi hollows, cos i'm really keen to know what they would sound like.

I'm pretty much set for SMs in the neck, i like that tone.

So, imma be gigging with this, pot it. i guess you're right, that its only worth leaving it unpotted if i had some unobtanium grade guitar, so potted for practicality

AndyR, funny, i would have thought Mules in an LP would be like, bang on Beano tone

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2010, 10:52:41 AM »
Mules are AIV and moderate output.  Beano tone, to my ears, is a LOT of amp.  You don't want to be pushing things too hard.  I stand by my AII SMs as the closest thing to what Clapton's LP had in it.  It's quite a warm sound, and a little soft.  The amp has the bite and the punch.

Riff Raffs are bright and hard sounding, which is why they work well in all mahogany guitars.  The guitar brings the mids and the warmth.  Riff Raffs in a 335-style would be more Tele bridge pickup sounding than Strat neck pickup if that makes sense?

Clips by other people are all well and good, but they could be using 1 year old strings and a foam plectrum etc.  Plus they won't play like you do!

The best thing you can do with pickups is just take a punt on something and try them.  You've then got a reference point to refine things further and work out which direction to go to next  :)

gwEm

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 7456
    • http://www.preromanbritain.com/gwem
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 11:48:54 AM »
its all relative. a2 stormy mondays are slurrier in the bass than a4 SMs or a5 riff raffs, but its not like your playing death metal. you will be happy with the bass definition of a2 stormy mondays if thats the way you decide to go!

i've tried stormy mondays in a gibson semi acoustic, and they sound absolutely amazing.
Quote from: AndyR
you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

gwEm

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 7456
    • http://www.preromanbritain.com/gwem
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2010, 11:54:27 AM »
just listening to 'Beano' now.. does he use a treble booster on this?
Quote from: AndyR
you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2010, 12:03:12 PM »
It's been questioned MANY times gwEm, but Clapton himself always said it was just the amp turned up loud.  I think what people forget is that the Bluesbreaker combo he used would have been brand new.  Taking an old combo now, after the parts have aged, will dull and soften the tone a bit.  A fresh Bluesbreaker will be brighter and zingier.

My LP straight into my JTM45 1/4 stack with Greenbacks gets the tone to my ears.

gwEm

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 7456
    • http://www.preromanbritain.com/gwem
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2010, 12:10:08 PM »
It's been questioned MANY times gwEm, but Clapton himself always said it was just the amp turned up loud.  I think what people forget is that the Bluesbreaker combo he used would have been brand new.  Taking an old combo now, after the parts have aged, will dull and soften the tone a bit.  A fresh Bluesbreaker will be brighter and zingier.

My LP straight into my JTM45 1/4 stack with Greenbacks gets the tone to my ears.

really interesting stuff twinfan... it does sound very treblebooster-ish, but then again trebleboosting is a subtle effect.

i do agree with you though that its a very amp-driven tone. i would guess i could get something similar with one of my t-top or riff raff loaded Vs and my thundertomate treble booster if i tweaked the amp enough. the bass is kind of soft sounding, but the top end bites like hell. i'm not sure a5 would be soft enough in the low end though to quite reach that sound.
Quote from: AndyR
you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

ketot

  • Strawweight
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2010, 12:21:07 PM »
so, stormy mondays would get me the closest to this eh?

AII or AIV? I took a look at Tim's post on magnet types, but i couldnt seem to put the words into tone in my head. someone care to explain whether i the AII or AIV would be more suited to the beano tone?

AII SM seem to be the one im leaning most towards, judging by your posts.

AII SM for the neck and bridge?

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 12:22:55 PM »
Exactly gwEm - that's what I reckon.  Remember the Greenbacks in the combo would be brand new as well, not broken in and warm sounding.  They'll be full of bite  ;)

You can get close with lots of things, but I'm a firm believer that you need the warmth and syrupy-ness of AII to really get that tone.  You'd struggle to get a decent "All Your Love" out of Riff Raffs...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 12:25:07 PM by Twinfan »

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2010, 12:30:14 PM »
so, stormy mondays would get me the closest to this eh?

AII or AIV? I took a look at Tim's post on magnet types, but i couldnt seem to put the words into tone in my head. someone care to explain whether i the AII or AIV would be more suited to the beano tone?

AII SM seem to be the one im leaning most towards, judging by your posts.

AII SM for the neck and bridge?

Hello McFly? Are you reading the posts of myself and gwEm?  :?

We've tried a LOT of BKPs, in a lot of guitars, and we've both stated AII SMs are what we think will work.  There's two recommendations for you.

At the end of the day just do what most people do - order something and see how you get on  :)

ketot

  • Strawweight
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2010, 12:34:35 PM »
sorry if i came off antagonising on that, twas unintended  :)

k, SM AII it is then. Thanks for the recommendations

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2010, 12:47:56 PM »
Sorry ketot - didn't mean to come across as a bully  :oops:

If a set of AII SMs don't make your Sheraton sound good then I'd be very surprised  :)

AndyR

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4715
  • Where's all the top end gone?
    • My Offerings
Re: Beano tone with es 335
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2010, 12:50:17 PM »
AndyR, funny, i would have thought Mules in an LP would be like, bang on Beano tone

:lol:
That's exactly what I thought after I'd posted it! But I'm not sure Mule is the way to go on a semi (not sure why, just general impression from reading), so I didn't push for it... (by the way, I get better Beano impersonations, not copies mind, just "in the right vibe", from the Riff Raffs in the SG :lol:)

I think TF and Gwem are probably barking up the right tree. But I suspect you have the same worries I'd have - is there enough oink? I like getting my oink with just the guitar and the amp, no pedals - if that's you as well, then bear that in mind. The original Beano tone might well be lower output and it's actually mostly the amp - but if that's not the way you work, then that route isn't open to you without changing your whole approach, so a compromise of some sort is in order...

Also, I've just remembered that you want the JP at Albert Hall tone (lovely tone, btw) out of the same beast...

There is another option - I've never used it myself though - drop Tim/BKP an email as well as listening to us, point him at this thread :D

EDIT: And like Dave (Twinfan) said earlier - a lot of that tone is in the fingers... but you probably know that already if you're chasing it :lol:
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 12:52:17 PM by AndyR »
Play or Download AndyR Music at http://www.alonetone.com/andyr