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Author Topic: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix  (Read 3972 times)

AndyR

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Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« on: October 24, 2010, 02:06:58 PM »
I wasn't sure about posting this as a "clip" - it's a finished mix of a pop-rock song. But it does demonstrate (to me anyway) how bluddy useful/versatile a recording guitar my CIJ 62 Strat has turned out now that it's got Sultans installed (and a BKP bridge instead of the stock one with a zinc block).

Here it be on my Soundclick:

Baby has a good time anyway

All electrics on this recording are the CIJ straight into a Laney CUB12R (only two amp settings used, one clean-ish, one hairier), mic'd up with a rusty old SM58.

=====================
Er, where are the Sultans then?
=====================


 :lol: Here's where they're hiding and how they were effected in the mix:

Intro: There's no electric guitar in the short intro.

Verses: Clean parts
- bass note twanging on the left (either middle or bridge, can't remember, sounds like middle to me)
- clean Mark Knoplferiness on the right (Middle-Neck)
Everything below 50Hz removed and a bit of Room reverb added in the mix.

Choruses: Dirty parts, bridge pickup, one high (left), one low (right)
Everything below 50Hz removed and a bit of Room reverb added in the mix.

Solo in the middle: Same amp setting as the cleans, Bridge-Middle, then changes to Bridge (maybe) for the volume swell stuff on the last verse. This part has quite a bit of compression/reverb/delay on it in the mix to put it in the same song as the lead vocal - but I couldn't have treated this guitar like that (before the Sultans) without it turning to flubberyness. :lol:

Outro: You can't really hear them now, but there are two clean strats (the same ones as the verses) just cycling round the chords with me leaning on the wang bar to create the "chorus" effect. In fact, wherever you think you can hear chorus or something similar on the electrics, it's the wang bar.

=============
Other stuff on here:
=============


Apart from the vocals, the basic track was just three acoustics (Godin 5th Avenue arch-top). Some of the acoustics are a bit messy, I was just tw@tting around when I started this and then couldn't be bothered to replace them later.

The bass part is a Line6 Variax bass on its double-bass setting. But I've messed with the bass part HUGELY in the mix. I've come very close to buying an EUB (Electric Upright Bass) because of this and some other recent stuff. The part was originally a rough take that I was going to replace, but after all the tracking and listening to it again I decided it's close enough in it's "rough and ready" state - and could spend a week trying to better it and still fail.

All the strings/pads/harpsichord are my old Yamaha PSR-225 - basically a home keyboard from some 10 years ago or so. Nothing's sequenced, I couldn't be bothered, I just tracked stuff and bounced as necessary.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 02:12:30 PM by AndyR »
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gwEm

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Re: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2010, 05:00:41 PM »
you always get such a good sound with the gear you have, especially considering the budget nature of some of it.

i liked the tone of the sultans, am always impressed by the way alnico 2 sounds so friendly.

cool song as well, by the way!
Quote from: AndyR
you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

gordiji

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Re: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2010, 07:15:37 PM »
great post andy,superb vocals, it really has a steelye dan flavour, are you a donald fagan fan?
no surprises as to why the sultans are called sultans.great production job too,there's a lot going on there and to my
ears the finished song's very well balanced.it's good to hear guitars in context.

gwEm

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Re: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2010, 07:59:55 PM »
great post andy,superb vocals,

yes, they are superb! (which mic did you use by the way? i like your pragmatic approach to gear buying)
Quote from: AndyR
you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

Telerocker

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Re: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2010, 10:49:57 PM »
Great song, great singing, love it. Stratty parts are very Knopfler-esque. Bright (but no too) and punchy. Well done!
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Tellboy

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Re: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2010, 08:56:29 AM »
Nice one Andy  PDT_003
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AndyR

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Re: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2010, 09:11:24 AM »
Thanks guys :D

Gwem - in case you're thinking it was all done on the fag-packet-sized Boss Micro-BR... Nope! :lol:. It could have been (using an external desk for phantom power and compression during vocal takes), but I've acquired the Boss BR1600 - it's a damned sight easier to use... (except I haven't explored the drums/rhythm area yet, which is why none of my recent stuff has any drums on).

Vocals were all into a Rodes NT-something (1000?) large condensor. I use that for all vocals and standard acoustic guitars. The "rusty old SM58" was my old gigging lead vocal mic. I think it's lost some of its top-end but it does a job at the moment. I use that for situations where the condensor is too sensitive (percussion stuff like tambourines, which I still can't play well enough to leave in a mix, or resonator guitars). I just reached for the SM58 when it came time to try mic'ing up the Laney - that was actually just an experiment, I was expecting to get the Vox Tonelab out, but it worked so well that I might stop using the tonelab...

When I'm tracking, I use one of the BR1600's preset insert patches on vocals. I did investigate the settings a while back, but results were so good I decided not to fiddle. It's got light compression/limiter and gating (a bit like I use my dbx thingy for if I'm going through an external desk). The compression/limiter is essential for my vocals when the singer and engineer are the same person. The gate is essential in our flat, especially if the vocal to be is exposed in the mix or if I'm layering lots of voices.

I've tried the insert patch on acoustic instruments but the compression isn't needed and the gating produces artifacts I don't like, so I have to put up with external noise.

I've got another insert patch I use when I'm trying to get the Variax bass to do double-bass - but I think I've over done it this time, doesn't sound anything like a double-bass to me!! I might trust the Variax on its own next time :lol:

The BIG thing on the lead vocal is the "motown" trick. When you have the lead vocal take you want to use, copy the track and use them like this in the mix:

A: No eq/compression at all. Stick the reverb you want on this track. Get the track up to the level you want the vocals in the mix.

You're almost there, but the vocal doesn't quite "do it". If you don't have the other copy, you start fiddling with the eq, raising the level, reducing the reverb (which you wanted), and generally messing and accepting "I can't sing/record vocals that sit in a mix... :("

Instead...

B: Take the second copy. Remove ALL the bottom-end, pile LOADS of top-end on it, compress the living sh1t out of it (max threshold, INF compression). Then you just add some of that until the vocal sounds right...

What it does is it clarifies the vocal somewhat, it seems to put the singer "in the room" with you, and it allows you to pile loads of reverb on without getting mushy... AND it gets the vocal through the enemies of lead vocals - the backing vox, electric guitars, cymbals, etc.

I always use it now, even if I don't really need it to get through the mix, because it adds a touch of character that I've got used to.

Other tricks I've picked up for getting a better sound:

Delay - only use it when you actually want repeats, otherwise reverb is your friend, or nothing (and make sure you tune any delays to the tempo, unless you actually want crazy stuff)

Reverb - some folk hate it, but if you like it, you can get round many "haters" by using it "well". "Well" seems to be to use a DIFFERENT reverb for different things in the same mix. On this:
- the acoustics, electrics, and keyboards all have their own variations.
- the bass even has its own room reverb.
- the backing vox on the chorus have a very bright but hefty amount of hall
- the lead voices (lead vocal and lead guitar, in this case) always share the same reverb to keep them in the same song. In this case it's quite a long hall

EQ:
- cut rather than boost if you can, set yourself a low arbitrary limit to any boosting you feel compelled to do (I use +3db)
- always strip the bottom-end off of any electric guitar part that is not a solo or lead part. You can't hear the bottom end in the mix, and it uses up other instruments' bandwidth
- use complementary EQ. For example, mixing vocal parts, I'll cut a frequency on one part and boost the exact same frequency on another. I apply this across the board, not just backing vox, whenever instruments or submixes are not sitting together properly.

Oh yeah, finally - "try to get the tracking right". Everytime I think "I'll fix it in the mix" I'm storing up headaches for later and probably preparing a messy/busy/mushy/wotever "not-what-meant" mix.


I got a lot of this out of previous experience of "oh sh1t, that sounds vile, how do you actually do this?" and then getting my hands on a book called something like "Guerilla Home Recording - how to get great sounds out of anything". You do need techniques and theory, and better quality kit is better quality kit... but what you need most is the right approach to it all, the right attitude 8) even.

For example, on this one, I got my yamaha PSR-225 out. I'd written it off as a toy a couple of years ago. Last Friday was a real eye-opener. A) the sounds are pretty good once you turn the ubiquitous reverb off, B) there's some CRAZY stuff inside it that lets you manipulate the sounds quite a long way if you need it. I was getting geared up for investigating new synth modules or going the virtual synth route... I learnt that I don't really need to do that for at least a couple of years now (what I actually need to do is practice my playing a lot more, and learn the technical stuff that's inside the one I've got).
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 09:12:57 AM by AndyR »
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gwEm

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Re: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2010, 10:52:41 AM »
thanks for all those tips there Andy!! :D

i was thinking about buying a condenser mic for vocals the last few weeks. i had the use of one from an old girlfriend for a few years, and i had to do alot less processing on the results when i used that. i like to think it sounded more detailed. maybe it is worth investing sometimes.

lots to think about
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 10:55:47 AM by gwEm »
Quote from: AndyR
you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

AndyR

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Re: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2010, 01:24:42 PM »
I'd say a decent condensor is a good buy. Vocals obviously, but it's also made me feel a lot more confident about recording acoustic instruments.

And yes, "more detailed", is my experience as well. You seem to get more to play with on the vocal track.

I'm thinking of getting another one actually. I've started recording some acoustic stuff that really cries out for the original one guitar one voice thing. I perform both far better if I do it all live. So far I've had to do it on one mic. It's do-able, but you've only got one track to work with then. Varying revereb etc on the vocals or guitar just isn't possible. Two condensors and a new stand, and I'll be away! :lol:
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Ian Price

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Re: Sultans doing some Sultany stuff in a full mix
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2010, 10:34:48 PM »
Really like that Andy - great stuff. I've listened to it a few times and it has got better with each listen. I know I'm going to go to bed with the "baby has a good time...." line going round in my head.

I'd love to have the time (and vocal ability) to put some stuff together. I've got a bad habit of writing little snippets of songs, playing them for a bit and then forgetting them a few months later. Maybe when the kids are a little older I'll get more time!
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