... based on the idea lower output pickups can be better for metal...

[AngryGoldfish]

So I'm thinking of buying a Chapman Guitar ML2 Custom guitar and installing a set of Bareknuckles. After reading the interesting thread about high output vs low output models, I wanted to ask about the best low output pick-ups for hard rock and metal.

I can only guess that the DC current determines how hot or cold the pick-up is going to be. Based on that premise, and based on the fact that the Dimarzio PAF-7's I have in my Apex seven string are a little too cold, should I be looking into the Vintage Hot series?

With my current amp, I find that the higher output pick-ups are ruining the clean tones. With my Les Paul, the signal turns stupidly compressed. Of course, that's great for high gain tones, but not so for cleans. Then again, when I plug in a Strat or the seven string with PAF's, although the clean sounds are much more pleasing, the high gain tones suffer slightly.

What I'm looking for is a balance, I guess. Any ideas?

[ratspeak]

What kind of pickups do you have in your LP? DC resistance doesn't define how much output a pickup has. There are many other factors and intangibles. If your PAF-7s are too low in output, and whatever you have in your LP is too high in output, first try to find some middle ground. Also, what styles do you play specifically? What amp do you use? What kind of woods will you have in your custom?

[AngryGoldfish]

I use a Soldano Avenger. It's a single channel high gain amp. I don't know how long I will have it, though. I will be hoping to pick up another amp solely cleans in the future; something of a Fender Twin deriative. But I can't say I'll be keeping the Soldano for sure. It'll only be replaced with another similar high gain amplifier anyway.

I've tried to find specific info on the Les Paul, but nothing of detail came up. All I can say about the pick-ups is that they are Alnico-V Classic humbuckers. It's an old Epiphone guitar.

The woods of the Chapman guitar will be Mahogany, Maple and Ebony, for body, neck and fretboard respectively.

I play a lot of different styles of music - hence the requirement of versatility. But mostly it's hard rock - Deftones, Neurosis, Tool, System of a Down, Placebo, Mastodon, Biffy Clyro.

[ericsabbath]

my bandmate is using my '96 PRS McCarty with a custom Riff Raff in the bridge (it has a slightly thicker magnet for a bit more output and low end) and his tone is now noticeably better than his Cort Kx1 with a miracle man set, although the Cort sounded godly too

we have a lot of Tool, Mastodon and Deftones influences and the Riff Raff is doing the job pretty well
my '73 LP Custom with a cold sweat set is doing a great job as well (it's a dark and dense sounding guitar, while the PRS is very open and resonant)
just a matter of taste

but I gotta tell you that the Riff Raff doesn't feel any less strong or punchy than the other models
reminds me of the nailbomb I had, but without all the compression and with a brighter top
chords sound thick, but a lot more open
it's a quite tight sounding pickup as well and the lead tones are fluid and don't lack sustain like I would expect
that pickup was a great revelation for me
I gotta try the black dog and VHII eventually

[Keven]

mahogany maple and ebony... this combo leaves things quite open! i don't quite know what to recommend

tim referred me the Riff Raff for my 8 string. he also referred the cold sweat for a tone i had in mind for that guitar. i went for the cold sweat, but the riff raff would suit my playing better.

i find that like eric said, the lower output BK's aren't really 'lower output'. they have so much punch and dynamics. bang hard and they respond. back up and you have nice cleans!

[AngryGoldfish]

If the Riff Raff can cover Mastodon tones, then I'm sure I'd be happy with them.

I'll talk to the makers of the Chapman guitars and see what they say regarded the tone of the woods from the guitar, whether they're dense and chunky, or thin and cutting.

Thanks a lot, lads!

By the way, any ideas what pick-up cover would suit the finish of the guitar the best?

[dave_mc]

are you willing to use different pickups for clean and distortion? I quite like high (or reasonably high) output bridge combined with low output neck pickup... works pretty well for me, anyway.

[AngryGoldfish]

are you willing to use different pickups for clean and distortion? I quite like high (or reasonably high) output bridge combined with low output neck pickup... works pretty well for me, anyway.

I would be willing to do that, yeah, but it wouldn't be the most ideal situaiton. What do you recommend, Dave?

[dave_mc]

I dunno about that, if it works for what you want it is ideal, lol. As long as you don't use both pickups on together too much, it's normally fine.

I can't really recommend it with BKPs as I only have a MM/CS set- which I guess is a similar idea, but not as extreme as what I was talking about. The MM/CS set is more like hot bridge/medium neck. But it's worked for me with other manufacturers' sets fine.

it also depends on what you use it for- I use my bridge pickup for 100% of my distorted rhythm playing, and a good 80% of my distorted lead playing. I only really use my neck pickup for cleans or solos/lead playing (where a more open neck pickup can actually accentuate the differences between the two tones of neck and bridge). I'd use the bridge pickup for cleans too at times if it sounded ok, but I'm willing to lose that to gain everywhere else. If you use your bridge pickup for cleans all the time, or like the both-pickups-on sound a lot, then it might not work as well for you.

EDIT: ooh, another idea. You could also consider parallel wiring, say on a push-pull. That drops the output a lot, and it's still hum-cancelling (unlike splits). Might be worth considering too.

[ericsabbath]

If the Riff Raff can cover Mastodon tones, then I'm sure I'd be happy with them.

I'll talk to the makers of the Chapman guitars and see what they say regarded the tone of the woods from the guitar, whether they're dense and chunky, or thin and cutting.

Thanks a lot, lads!

By the way, any ideas what pick-up cover would suit the finish of the guitar the best?

for mastodon specifically, I'd still take the miracle man
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22446.0
but the riff raff does it through the right amps

that guitar looks great :D
is that some kind of african mahogany?

[AngryGoldfish]

for mastodon specifically, I'd still take the miracle man
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22446.0
but the riff raff does it through the right amps

that guitar looks great :D
is that some kind of african mahogany?

But Mastodon is just one of the genres I play. Will the Miracle Mans clean up nicely and not overly compress? I'm concerned about that you see.

I don't actually know what kind of Mahogany it is. All I know is it looks damn fine.

I dunno about that, if it works for what you want it is ideal, lol. As long as you don't use both pickups on together too much, it's normally fine.

I can't really recommend it with BKPs as I only have a MM/CS set- which I guess is a similar idea, but not as extreme as what I was talking about. The MM/CS set is more like hot bridge/medium neck. But it's worked for me with other manufacturers' sets fine.

it also depends on what you use it for- I use my bridge pickup for 100% of my distorted rhythm playing, and a good 80% of my distorted lead playing. I only really use my neck pickup for cleans or solos/lead playing (where a more open neck pickup can actually accentuate the differences between the two tones of neck and bridge). I'd use the bridge pickup for cleans too at times if it sounded ok, but I'm willing to lose that to gain everywhere else. If you use your bridge pickup for cleans all the time, or like the both-pickups-on sound a lot, then it might not work as well for you.

EDIT: ooh, another idea. You could also consider parallel wiring, say on a push-pull. That drops the output a lot, and it's still hum-cancelling (unlike splits). Might be worth considering too.

I guess the only reason why I've never used the neck for my cleans is because my amp is already quite a low, bassy amp. The bridge pick-up, for cleans and distortion, generally sounds more cutting and 'intact'. That's not to say that, with the right neck pick-up, that I can't use it for cleans and solos alone, and the bridge for high gain sounds.

I NEVER use the middle position on Les Pauls / Ibanez'. I just don't like the way they sound, and it's always a pain to get right in the middle of a jam. I use the middle position on my two Strats, though.

So, I do use the bridge for cleans moreso, but I am willing to change that if necessary; if I'm given the right models.

[MDV]

Daves scheme for parallel, and switching options in general is a really good idea.

Another plan, which should fit you perfectly, is choose whatever pickup is most suitable for the heaviest stuff youre likely to play, and get it coil tapped at some appropriate % of the wind.

And by tapped, I mean tapped, not split.

Intant low output and high output pickup in one pickup.

In my experience miracle men have the worst clean in the bridge of any BK I've used. Their high gain sounds are superb, cleans no more than tollerable, and they dont like to be rolled off at the volume for some reason; they get thin really fast.

Aftermaths, painkillers and nailbombs (both types) have nice cleans though. Not amazing, but more than passable. Were I to tap any high outputer I'd go for one of those.

[dave_mc]

Ok, cool- fair point about the neck pickup.

Mark has some good points- tapping (as he says, actually tapped, not split) might be the way to go.

Miracle Man cleans (even lower gain overdrives) aren't that great, as Mark says. It's a one-trick pony pickup- 80s metal and stuff like that. Great for that, but yeah, it's not very versatile. I'd probably be looking at one of the other high output pickups like mark suggested (though I haven't tried them).

Another option is to go in the middle, get something reasonably hot, so it can cope with cleans and higher gain tones. Though going that way runs the risk of getting a jack of all trades, master of none type of problem- getting a higher output pickup tapped might be the best plan (assuming BKP offers it).

[AngryGoldfish]

I'll talk to the people I'd be buying the guitar from and see whether they'd charge extra to do what you're suggesting.

I wouldn't be doing it myself. The Custom edition I'm getting means I can get a profressional set-up and any installation requirements, new finishes, fret work, etc. done. But certain alterations require additional money. I need to check.

Coil tapping sounds like a plan, actually. I'll look into that as well. Can any Bareknuckle be coil-tapped? I realise you don't know, Dave. Anyone else have an idea?

I don't mind having a pick-up set that is a jack off all trades, master of none, as long as it actually sounds good at all those settings. If it just sounds okay, I'd rather just switch guitars when I want to play clean passages and use effects pedals, or coil-tap.

That's another thing: a pick-up that accepts pedals is a necessity. But I took the assumption that if the pick-up sounds great clean then it will similarly sound great with pedals.

[HairyChris]

Mastodon, I'd say, would involve medium output A5 into a dimed tube amp...

All BKP humbuckers can be split, just ask for the 4 conductor option when ordering the pickups.

FWIW I have a guitar with Miracle Man bridge, Mule neck. I agree completely with the comments about cleaning up the MM. The Mule, a PAF clone, is a fantastic pickup. Yummy!

To tell the truth if you want to drive the front end of the amp the Warpig is an interesting/OTT bet. Probably a bit bass-heavy for a Mastodon tone but it does clean up fantastically well with the volume knob (although the split isn't as nice as it is for the Mule). I also see that the Cold Sweat has been mentioned. These are awesome pickups, very versatile, but maybe a tad too clean if you know what I mean.