Multi Effects question

[Doadman]

Next year I'll be buying a new amp, probably a Marshall JVM410H because I love valve tone especially from a Marshall but a thought about this does keep nagging at me. I've always assumed that digital modelling will never take the place of a real valve amp but one look at the Axe FX website to see the reviews and artists endorsing the product would seem to suggest that this isn't true.

Modelling technology clearly has a future but for mere mortals like myself the cost of an Axe FX is prohibitive so I wondered what else might be available that is good. The first example I thought of was the Marshall JMP-1 which doesn't seem to me to be massively removed from todays modellers and was very highly thought of. I also remember reading an interview with Megadeth where they said that they used a Digitech GSP 1101 for all of their preamp gain and used conventional guitar amps merely as power amps. If this is the case, surely that would mean that multi-effects units aren't actually as bad as many people claim on guitar forums.

The obvious question after that is why am I looking at spending a fortune on a valve amp like the JVM when I could use a decent multi-effects unit instead and just buy a cheaper guitar valve amp or even a valve power amp to use in conjunction with something like the Digitech? I'd be able to ditch all of my expensive pedals too. Just why is a valve amp like a JVM so much better these days?

[Telerocker]

If you buy the JVM, I don't think you need a multi-effect. It's an versatile amp.  If you use your gear mainly on stage, the JVM will do all. For studiowork a multiefffect can be a handy tool. My experience is that cheaper multieffects don't do breakup/light crunchy tones as well (on stage) as a good valveamp. But I heard some good results in the studio with the Line6 Pod.

[Doadman]

I appreciate that a valve amp will sound better when cranked and I am looking at a JVM410 precisely because it's versatile but with a JVM410, how often am I realistically going to be able to crank it to get the best out of it? The biggest gig I'm likely to play is about 500 and the odd time I may do more if it's a biker's rally but most of my gigging is pubs where even a 50w would be more than adequate. Hell, at the moment I'm using a DSL401! I can't see how I'm ever going to get the chance to drive a valve amp anyway and certainly not a 100w model. That being the case, wouldn't an amp modelling effects unit like a Digitech RP1000 be better and give it that valve warmth by running it through the power section of a guitar amp like a DSL50 or a valve power amp like an EL34 50/50? In fact, a used JVM410H will cost me about £600 on Ebay so wouldn't it be better to go to Ebay and get a JMP1 and EL34 50/50? It would probably cost no more money and possibly less.

[tekbow]

you could always use an attenuator? with a pub gig you can cook the power section, and there should be enough volume to get the speaker interaction with the sound

[Doadman]

A guy just posted this on the JVM forum and it seems to make a lot of sense to me:

"Here's the catch - if you have a solid state preamp and a tube poweramp, then the warmth will be added only when the tubes are driven enough to do business. I'm talking serious volume, even with 50W, which means quiet tone=OK, (very)loud tone=better.

With a tube preamp, you will get better distortion at lower volumes (since today's amps rely more on that then powertube breakup) and if it's coupled with an SS poweramp, it will just enhance that sound. Which means, quiet tone=good, loud(er) tone=more or less the same."

It also suggests that having the 100w JVM instead of the 50w should mean that much difference in actual tone. I suspected I'd end up still wanting the JVM but I've been researching some guitar related stuff for a beginners booklet I'm putting together and when I saw Steve Vai and John Petrucci on the Axe FX website it got me wondering how far cheaper modellers have come as it's a couple of years since I last tried one.

[Roobubba]

I've heard amazing tones from the AxeFX, but my experience with (much!) cheaper modelers, and hearing other people's attempts with anything other than an AxeFX have left me very much cold on multi effects.

IMHO, you're so much better off getting a good all-valve amp which you can gig with, record with etc. Yes, at home you're not going to crank it. But let's be honest, unless you're recording professionally at home, when do you NEED godly tone from your bedroom? It's more important that when you do need to crank the amp, it sounds fantastic :)

Roo

[Telerocker]

Maybe have a look at amps with onboard-attenuation/powerscaling like the Orange Thunderverb and Egnators, or buy a JVM with an attenuator-unit. Personally I miss somehow the soundpressure of an valveamp working with muliteffects on stage. I've tried a couple of times, but not quite my cup of tea.

[Transcend]

Erm if you like the megadeth sound

Mustaine has been actually using the rocktron prophesy which is a SS modelling preamp with multi fx since launch despite whatever he is currently endorsed by.

His tone is always the prophesy into a marshall power section.

This is other than the last album as he actually fully switched over to marshall JVM heads

but other than that both in the studio and live hes been using the prophesy apart from a brief period where it changed slightly

it was still the prophesy but into the line6 beta heads power section

[Doadman]

In actual fact I'm not that fussed on the Megadeth tone, I merely mentioned him as an example of someone using multi-effects.

I think what I'll do (as you're right that I don't need godly tone at home) is use a JVM410H with my 4X12 for gigs and practice and just get a cheap used modeller like a Cube 30X for practice at home.

[Transcend]

In actual fact I'm not that fussed on the Megadeth tone, I merely mentioned him as an example of someone using multi-effects.

I think what I'll do (as you're right that I don't need godly tone at home) is use a JVM410H with my 4X12 for gigs and practice and just get a cheap used modeller like a Cube 30X for practice at home.

Well what i do when i dont want to crank the TSL is hook my vox tonelab into the power section of it and it sounds pretty decent if i put my boost before the Tonelab

I can actually get the UK Moderm (jcm2000) to sound pretty darn close to my tsl's preamp its just a tad bassier

[d1dsj]

I've heard amazing tones from the AxeFX, but my experience with (much!) cheaper modelers, and hearing other people's attempts with anything other than an AxeFX have left me very much cold on multi effects.

IMHO, you're so much better off getting a good all-valve amp which you can gig with, record with etc. Yes, at home you're not going to crank it. But let's be honest, unless you're recording professionally at home, when do you NEED godly tone from your bedroom? It's more important that when you do need to crank the amp, it sounds fantastic :)

Roo

I couldn't agree more.

[Doadman]

Yes, I think I'll stick to Plan A and go for the JVM and a Cube for the home. Part of the rationale is ease of use and part is economics. At the moment I use the same rig at home and for gigs (the 4X12 is only hooked up for gigs) and although the DSL401 isn't huge, it's still a pain in the rear to keep dismantling it all and setting it up again. I reckon a really good used Cube 30X won't cost more than £100 and possibly less while my DSL401 with its upgrades will fetch between £250 and £300 so I have possibly £200 to put to the JVM and a more convenient home setup. Getting the JVM should also make my Hardwire TL-2 and MXR Boost pedals redundant and between them I should get £100 for them so I'm halfway towards the likely cost of a JVM410H as I've never yet seen one go for over £600 on Ebay. Of course, I'm hankering for a new set of BKP as well, which may slow things down a bit  8)

[asianaxeman]

Dude, in my experience the JVM works best when it's midi function is utilised as well as a boost (esp sounds Godly on crunch red). The way you can do this is get a TC nova system so you can change amp channels and effects with one stomp of a switch, I tried this with my jvm215c and it worked brilliantly.

TC nova + 410 + your mxr boost = heaven

I just loved the fact you could have a crisp clean with all the texturing of various delays/ chorus and stomp on a switch and go in to a lead or crunch tone so easily. No need for the marshall footswitch or a separate rack unit. I loved that rig because the preamp tones are tube driven from the amp and not some microchip wwith no dynamics.

The only thing I didn't like about the tc nova was the flanger was not my cup of tea and I didn't get my head around the noisegate, but had I spent more time I would have (borrowed it off a mate to test the midi switching)

Remember you're investing a lot of money, but optimal tone is priceless! Can't beat valves.