Touring, Putting on Shows...

[Dmoney]

After touching on some feelings of mine after reading the Kids Music Taste thread, and the thread about feeling like not playing guitar any more, I thought I'd stick this up in a new thread. Something NFE said made me think about this stuff again... It's mostly related to my few years playing in my old band and the bands we played with and what has happened since then within that scene we were part of.

I have a lot of friends struggling to put on shows, not so much due to ticket sales, but due to fees. Small "DIY" booking agencies booking bands from the USA with one 7inch and one demo and charging £800 for a package... say... 2 USA bands (with similar releases to those mentioned) plus a UK band providing a full backline for all bands to use for £100 a night, acting effectively as backline hire.

You could sell out a venue with a cap of a couple hundred potentially, but the venue hire costs, plus food and places to stay for bands on top of that £800 fee means seems a lot to me. Ticket prices need to be kept to a level that people will pay, which often doesn't add up to cover costs. So then more local bands get added and play for free, sometimes it ends up being a whole day event because promoters think more bands playing equals more people paying in. In effect it means a lot of UK bands end up 'paying to play' so some USA bands can get a big fee, and the "DIY" agent takes 10%. Of course, this is disguised as paying-your-dues or sturggling for your art. whatever.

The whole situation annoys me and I'm not even in a band any more.

My friends Brighton based band were getting 100 EUROS a night on a full european tour with 2 american bands, providing full backline, and renting a van. First show on that tour was in west germany, the second was in england. So that first 100 euro had to cover the van hire cost, equipment cost for the day, plus petrol and ferry fares to get to and from west germany.

NFE, what you do with your shows might be totally different, but what I was involved with made me never want to play for anyone ever again, actually, I wasn't involved with that. I booked our tours or our label did, and we didn't go about it the way some European "agencies" do it. I can say for sure, that if my old band had gone over to the USA when we did, expecting the same deal as those US bands got here , we'd have been very very upset with the result.

I don't even want to go to those gigs now because I feel like im participating in the cycle. I'll go to this and that when I can but it makes me feel physically sick to see how one sided things are. Listening to records reminds me of all these negative things to the point where I just don't want to listen to music any more, or I listen to something totally different. I worry about not playing in bands again, giving up guitar etc... it sounds extreme but its a reaction to an extreme emotion. When you feel strongly about things I guess you often come up with drastic thoughts about how to make those feelings better. At least I recognise that.

maybe its not like how I think at all and I'm just naysaying, If I am I'm sorry. sorry for ranting too, but I feel quite passionately about my friends who are in bands or promoters are effected by this. I'd like to see things get better for the UK bands I know. Even the work permit situation for bands is easier on US bands coming here then UK bands going to the US!

[nfe]

I put on very odd shows in Glasgow, next one isn't till June, only with one of my own bands on, where we'll split the door equally.

The festival makes no money, any profit just goes back into the following year, we don't even take expenses so it costs us quite a lot of money given that it's held in Leeds and we all live in Glasgow with production meetings and the festival weekend itself over the year. We don't take merch fees or any of that nonsense and every band gets fed and gets some beers, regardless of opener or headliner. I know we treat bands better than most (possibly any) other UK festival. But that's easy when you specifically set yourselves up knowing no one is ever making money out of it.

I think we provide a platform for small bands to play with big names that they'd never have a chance to support ordinarily, which is the main point of the festival for me, and I think we've helped make some small acts a lot bigger. After which, I have new friends who I can crowbar my own bands onto bills with!

[Dmoney]

See, I think that's great. You operate in what seems like a fair and consistent manner.

I've played in so may places that have involved weird politics. Like, US bands automatically headlining over UK ones because they are from overseas. A few times when my band was on bills, we got asked by the touring bands to headline, and it worked out great for everyone involved... but then someone would start flapping their mouth on the internet about whether my old band had the RIGHT to headline over an overseas band. well... when we played Texas with one of those bands (in their home town) they headlined... not us. Which is fine. There are lots of little things relating to gigs outside of just playing that annoy me about this.

I was talking with a friend of mine from Baltimore who just came here for a month. He plays in two bands out in the US and said that the bands im talking about play for fees a fraction of what they get here in the US (I mean maybe $200 if they are on tour doing longer drives than in europe, not £800, before that is exchanged back into dollars too). He also said if those bands were european and came to the US asking for that money it just wouldn't fly.

I think some of the problems can be caused by european guys booking the tours, 18- 21 years olds. On the mainland there is help for promoters in the form of cash from local government to pay for shows and a lot of youth centres and squats that are relatively cheap to hire (in comparison to similar sized UK venues). I think these guys think the UK is the same, but it just isn't. You can't just ask for money and expect guys and gals in there late teens and early 20s to pay it every time.

The problem goes on because people still agree to put on shows for money they don't realise they can't get. And then bands will march these people to cash machines and force them to draw money out. and the cycle continues.

do you know Louise Brown by any chance? I know Terrorizer sponsor your fest right?

[nfe]

I don't know Louise well, mostly I've dealt with James (who's now left) and Mel (who does the ads and stuff), my colleague deals with Luoise and Miranda more.

Generally my yardstick for the festival when dealing with bands is "would this annoy me, or would I think another promoter was a swine for doing the same" and that keeps it pretty straight. Plus being a monster lefty  :lol:

[Dmoney]

mate... exactly!

My bands last show was done exactly like that. Had everything arranged well in advanced to keep the venue sweet.
Paid all the bands fairly and in most cases I think we actually paid them up front a few days before the show. I guess it helps that all the bands on that bill were friends and on the same label at some point.

but yeah. you treat others how you'd like to be treated. I don't understand why some people get caught up or hide behind romantisicm when essentially being unfair to bands from their own towns or country.

I've known Louise a while. She currently lives with my old flatmate. Shes lovely.

[Alex]

Errr... it's not called "West Germany" anymore for the last 20 years.

And trying to put on live music sucks a lot nowadays, too many people trying to make money from it and too few people that support live bands. It's a dying art IMO.

I want to see one or two (three at maximum) GOOD bands on an evening, not a whole day event where after the two first bands it all blurs together anyway and your ears are just too tired to take in more. I would guess I'm not the only one who feels like that.

[gwEm]

You guys make some good points, but I guess you are jaded from the whole thing.. Sometimes I feel the same, but generally I accept that:

* Music is a giant money hole: gear and tour expenses will always happen
* I am unlikely to be actually famous and am happy to settle for what little noterity I have
* Its not a choice, I need to write and compose music to continue life
* Strapping on a V, throwing down some big riffs and shredding the shite out it in front of an audience is the best feeling in the world

This makes it easier to deal with the shitety side. And furthermore I don't deal with 'contacts' and so on. I play with friends, and always try to reciprocate where I can. I just put on a show myself when I have a good lineup in mind, stuff I like, and people I enjoy the company of.

Don't let those ####!!s destroy the joy for you, really just fu_k them and don't bother dealing with them.

[Dmoney]

Errr... it's not called "West Germany" anymore for the last 20 years.

If im talking about cities and towns on or close to the border with Belgium, then I'd say that is West Germany, or Western parts of Germany, if I said west of Germany would you think "west of but not actually Germany"?... just because the Berlin Wall no longer exists doesn't mean Germany no longer has any relationship with the points on a compass from it's center. Just like London will always be in South East England. Essen didn't move to North East Germany when the wall came down did it? I'm not talking about the "State" of West Germany, I just mean a geographical point from its center.

I agree totally with what you're saying about the whole "all day" thing!

* Music is a giant money hole: gear and tour expenses will always happen
* I am unlikely to be actually famous and am happy to settle for what little noterity I have

Agree on boths counts. Music is the same as any other hobby really, but gear expenses is something different to having people take advantage of you or not treat you fairly or whatever or put you in a situation which just stops you playing unless you can afford to loose (what you might personally consider) large amounts of money. I know you know that too.

* Its not a choice, I need to write and compose music to continue life
* Strapping on a V, throwing down some big riffs and shredding the shitee out it in front of an audience is the best feeling in the world

On the first point, I think this is what makes me so upset to be absolutely stuck in my current routine, only doing what i'm told to do or need to do. completely on auto pilot. I've found it really hard to write and be happy with what I write for a number of years now and it's building up into this huge issue for me. I know stopping playing music will make that worse and put me deeper into a routine I don't really care about, but when I think about it the later seems the lesser of two evils. I think in CBT terms it's called 'all or nothing' thinking.

on your second point there...RIGHT ON! (though I'm not man enough to rock the V!)

This makes it easier to deal with the shiteety side. And furthermore I don't deal with 'contacts' and so on. I play with friends, and always try to reciprocate where I can. I just put on a show myself when I have a good lineup in mind, stuff I like, and people I enjoy the company of.

Don't let those ####!!s destroy the joy for you, really just fu_k them and don't bother dealing with them.

My band never did contracts as such. Actually we probably did on the USA tour but I never saw one, I just knew what to expect per night, and we got that every night. Ray from Full Blown Chaos had a chat with me on the first night of that tour and said he knew what it was like to be in our situation and said he'd make sure we always got what we needed... that was a really nice of him. In the EU, we had agreements on paper which told us where to be, if we needed to find our own places to stay, fees... etc. That just helps logistically. That EU tour was with two USA bands who were relying on getting paid to cover their flights. They weren't rich guys blowing money on flights to tour europe. Still, that tour we split the money close to 3 equal ways. Some really bad things happened on that tour but overall it was great.

the times we got asked to join tours on contracts and provide whole backlines etc... I just refused. This is the same as your point on not getting involved. When it was time for our last ever show, it was also fun to see some of the vultures inviting us to play our final show at their festival... basically using our demise to boost their profits. It was obvious, and instead we used our demise to help our friend who ran the label we were on get out of the debt he had from putting out great music as his hobby.

all in all... i have to agree with everything you guys have said.

[nfe]

I need to make a big distinction between bands I'm in and the festival I do.

The former is obviously much like you guys, we're never going to make money at it, I don't particularly want to, because I don't want it to be a job, I've been a full time musician and I packed it in because it got boring and I didn't have a fun hobby any more!

With the festival, we HAVE to be dealing with contracts and get a bit bogged down with strict logistics and so on, because if we had, say in 2008, Carcass pull out with a fortnight to go, we'd be owing tens of thousands of pounds in refunds... And that'd have to come out of our pockets, as we pay the venue with ticket sales and they're not going to let the fee slide because of our bad luck with their 3,500 venue that's booked out every day of the year...

[Dmoney]

I don't think contracts are necessarily an evil thing at all. With tours and festivals and so on you have to take a realistic approach to the organizational aspect and like you say, think about what to do if things go wrong. I know a booking agent that has no idea about what to do when things go wrong, and he is still booking lots of bands EU tours

If you don't want to do it professionally anymore that's cool. I'd like to tour again SO BADLY!

part of my problem is when people get all romantic about the struggle bands and how certain bands should only play to break even, even if they are on a bill with a band drawing less people than them that happens to be getting 10x the money. If you played a show for £70, and everyone watches your band and then leaves before the headline band getting £600 comes on, I doubt you'd think that was fair. The promoter would probably just be using your draw deliberately to pay other bands. That has definitely happened to my old band.

There is a difference between trying cover costs and hoping for a fair deal, than being in it for the money. In fact, making money isn't a bad aim if it enables you to do more. That's how it worked for us. Most of the guys in my band were permanently broke, but the money we made from touring went into a band kitty that allowed us to do things we wouldn't ever have thought possible. We had no label paying us to do stuff and no funding outside of what we raised ourselves, I don't think that is evil or not punk, or whatever. For that i'm really grateful. Part of his kind of starts off another discussion about being in bands etc becoming more of a privilege associated with band member income or family wealth.

[Alex]

Errr... it's not called "West Germany" anymore for the last 20 years.

If im talking about cities and towns on or close to the border with Belgium, then I'd say that is West Germany, or Western parts of Germany, if I said west of Germany would you think "west of but not actually Germany"?... just because the Berlin Wall no longer exists doesn't mean Germany no longer has any relationship with the points on a compass from it's center. Just like London will always be in South East England. Essen didn't move to North East Germany when the wall came down did it? I'm not talking about the "State" of West Germany, I just mean a geographical point from its center.

I agree totally with what you're saying about the whole "all day" thing!

I see your point now. "West Germany" is a fixed term though, since it was used to refer to a country (the FGR) and Eastern Germany to the (GDR), so I think "in the west of Germany" would be better. You wouldn't have the problem with "southern Germany" of course - there's no attachment there.
Funny enough when I read it originally for a short moment I was thinking  "wow, this tour took place quite a while ago". ;-)

[Dmoney]

Ha! I can see that.
I guess because I'm not german it doesn't really enter into my mind. Though the east of germany still has a vibe of Eastern Germany is some way right? like that Afri-cola? former eastern germany cola brand? thats a good cola!

[Alex]

Ooohh... that is a complex topic. I usually supervise at least one student every year on their dissertation about regional differences in identity in Germany, mostly about how people in the east see themselves different from people in the west. So yes, basically you are right, with some overgeneralisation of course.
Afri-Cola - no idea, sorry.

[gwEm]

AfriCola FTW

[bucketshred]

Dmoney, know any good hardcore promoters within the UK? My band are looking to book a few mini-tours/weekenders for the year. Some of the guys in the band are fans of your old band too!

Paddy