New BKP pickup EQ charts confusing?

[Twinfan]

I noticed this while I was looking at the range last week and forgot to post about it.  The new EQ charts on the site are a great addition, but are they right?  For example, using three similar-ish pickups in order of hotness:

Bass/Middle/Treble

Riff Raff: B5 M7 T8
VHII: B5 M6 T7
Emerald: B4 M6 T7

So the three pickups get less overall output as the DC resistance increases???  And the Emerald has the same EQ curve as a Riff Raff, but with less output???

:?

[darkbluemurder]

I am a bit confused by that, too.

As regards output, I thought that each category listing starts with the lowest output and ends with the highest output, and the given EQ curve has nothing to do with the raw output but shows only the relative outputs of bass, middle and treble. But following the forum discussions that probably will not give the entire picture since I understand that some pickups have stronger low mids (Holydiver, Crawler, Miracle Man, Warpig) whereas others are stronger in the high mids (Painkiller, Rebel Yell, Nailbomb). Add to all of that everybody hears something different as "high mids".

Cheers Stephan

[Twinfan]

Yeah, I think that's what's confusing.  So a Riff Raff is similar to an Emerald, but just how much hotter is the Emerald?

It makes a comparaison across Vintage/Vintage Hot/Contemporary quite difficult...

[dave_mc]

yeah i always just assume that the eq charts are just for that one pickup, and aren't related to output, just the frequency curve/response. Like if a low output pickup has treble 8 and a higher output pickup has treble 6, that means the lower output pickup has more treble, not that it's hotter.

I could be wrong, though :lol:

[ericsabbath]

the eq charts are just for that one pickup, and aren't related to output, just the frequency curve/response.

I agree with the output thing

but I disagree with some of the graphics
my riff raff is no near as middy as shown on the graphics
mine has a larger magnet, which would make it more bass heavy and add some attack, but I don't think a stock raff would be that much middier, at least by listening dozens of clips for years
the nailbomb I had was also no near as middy as a holy diver or aftermath, and I had enough pickups in those guitars to have solid comparison parameters
the miracle man should definitely have more bass than the cold sweat and aftermath
my aftermath sounds hotter, thicker in the mids, less bright, but slightly less bassy than the cold sweat in the same guitar

if the eq charts can't be compared at least in voicing terms, it kinda misses the point of having those charts

[Transcend]

I also doubt the accuracy of the EQ charts especially between the aftermath & the Miracle man!

However we are ALL responsible for the EQ charts in part as those values were gathered during MDV's pickup EQ thread

[dave_mc]

but I disagree with some of the graphics
my riff raff is no near as middy as shown on the graphics
mine has a larger magnet, which would make it more bass heavy and add some attack, but I don't think a stock raff would be that much middier, at least by listening dozens of clips for years
the nailbomb I had was also no near as middy as a holy diver or aftermath, and I had enough pickups in those guitars to have solid comparison parameters
the miracle man should definitely have more bass than the cold sweat and aftermath
my aftermath sounds hotter, thicker in the mids, less bright, but slightly less bassy than the cold sweat in the same guitar

if the eq charts can't be compared at least in voicing terms, it kinda misses the point of having those charts

I haven't tried enough bkps to really judge if the EQ charts are right or not... I just meant the principle :)

[Philly Q]

yeah i always just assume that the eq charts are just for that one pickup, and aren't related to output, just the frequency curve/response. Like if a low output pickup has treble 8 and a higher output pickup has treble 6, that means the lower output pickup has more treble, not that it's hotter.

Yep, that's exactly how I'd read them.

If the Riff Raff has treble of 8 and the Emerald has 7, it doesn't mean the Riff Riff has more "treble output".  Just that it's brighter.  The charts have nothing to do with output levels.

Or to put it another way, the EQ chart is the Tone Controls and the output is the Volume!

[Twinfan]

So looking at the charts, a Riff Raff has a single bar more treble, mid and bass than an Emerald?

The curve for both is the same, i.e. bass = x, mid = x+1, treble = x+1+1.

What exactly does that translate to then?  I don't get it!  :?

[Twinfan]

Hang on, does it mean if a Riff Raff is "like" Vol=8 and Tone=10 then an Emerald is that Riff Raff with Vol=10 and Tone=8????

[ericsabbath]

actually a 3 band "tonestack", not just a "tone" control

[Twinfan]

But then again, surely if you lower all the EQ bands by the same amount then you're reducing overall output?

I'm completely lost now.

[dave_mc]

yeah i think you're overcomplicating things there dave (coming from me that might be a bit hypocritical, lol, as i do that all the time).

keep the ideas of output separate from the eq chart.

Look at the eq chart and that tells you a rough guide of the pickup's eq. A higher number means more- so a pickup with treble at 8 is brighter than a pickup with treble at 6.

Then look at the output to see how hot it is.

I kinda know what you're doing with all those xes, that if the pickup's eq curve is only relative to itself, that a curve of x, x+1 and x+2 is the same whether you make x be 3 or 7 (unless you start working it out as percentages, in which case it might be different).

But yeah.

Now you have me not knowing which way's up. Thanks :lol:

EDIT: to your edit: me too :lol: :oops:

EDIT #2: how about this.

The eq is unrelated to output. it says nothing about the pickup's output relative to other pickups- but it does say something about the pickup's EQ/frequency response compared to the other pickups. It's the ratio of bass to mids to treble, but it also gives a general idea of how bassy/middly/trebly it is compared to the other pickups in the lineup.

For example a pickup with treble of 8 will be bright, and that can be compared to the other pickups.

So, for example, using your x, x+1 and x+2 example, a pickup with BMT of 5, 6, 7 will have a similar ratio of bass to mids to treble as a pickup with a BMT of 7, 8, 9 (assuming it's not done by percentages), however, the 7,8,9 pickup will be a bit brighter.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[fr33man1]

three rules to choose a pickup :

listen to tim

if youre not satisfied with the answer ask Eric (:D), if you seek tightness only ask MDV ;).

More seriously those charts could be the result of gathering infos about how users feel their pickups response on their axe so its biased by the guitars/amps' people are using or it could have been done based on the guitar they used to do the samples for the website. Anyways it won't match the result on your own guitars. You will really be able to tell when they're soldered and when you made it scream through your amp'.

I know a lot of people use those charts but in BKP case the boards are such a nice place to come and ask, its rare no one who knows the BKP range does not take the time to reply and explain to you what pickups could match your tonal needs.

Just saying in the end people, amps, guitar and even pickups are unique so you can't expect eq charts to be that accurate, just gives a partial idea on how it could sound.

[Twinfan]

Ok, so we're getting somewhere  :lol:

So the Emeralds I have coming in the next few days have the same EQ curve as a Riff Raff.  But as they're hotter, there's a reduction in treble which also has a compensated reduction in mids and bass to balance it.

So by the sound of it, Emeralds are Riff Raffs with a bit more beef and bit less spike.

That is, unless I've done a dave_mc and completely over-analysed it  :lol: