Lower output p/ups for metal

[artypaul]

I've got my guitars loaded with the kind of p/ups you'd expect to use for metal (80's thrash, mainly) - a Painkiller, a Miracle Man, and a Les Paul which came with Dirty Fingers. Yesterday I played a friend's Jackson D2 through my rig, and was really impressed by how good a lower output p/up sounded. The D2 has a Duncan Designed HB-101, which is the lower end version of an SD '59 (bridge as well as neck). The note clarity was surprisingly good - a real case of the right pickup in the right guitar. It was letting the amp do the heavy lifting, and it really made it growl (in a good way!), rather than saturate and compress more fully.

So I was wondering - which BKP would be the next for me to experiment with, following the above D2 methodology? I'm sure I've read about people successfully using a Mule for metal. And which (if any) BKP is closest to the '59?

Cheers,
Paul.

[mbchepburn]

In that case I'd use an Alnico magnet to get the big distortion sound. Ceramic will make it compressed which you said is not what you want. The Alnico magnets will give you a boost in the mids which is great for lead stuff. It will also give you a bigger sound. Don't get wrong, you can get big sounding ceramic pickups with good mids, but I just personally think you'd prefer Alnicos. What guitar will you be playing through and what is your rig. Also what tuning and what music?
Mike

[ericsabbath]

The Alnico magnets will give you a boost in the mids which is great for lead stuff.

that's a common misconception

the duncan '59 is the most scooped pickup I ever had, maybe only less scooped than the BL USA L500XL
the neck mule isn't really a middy pickup as well

I'll vote for the Riff Raff, which is no near as middy as shown in the chart, but quite balanced and the clearest and more open sounding bridge pickup I ever had, and remarkably punchy and thick for such a bright soundig pickup
it kicks the 59's ass in every way

[mbchepburn]

Alnicos actually do boost the mids in terms of it being the same pickup. If you had 2 of the exact same pickups, one with the ceramics and the the other with alnicos, the mid will appear boosted since its not as compressed. That doesn't go to say you can;t get a scooped sounding alnico pickup though. I just suggested the alnico since he doesn't want it to sound as compressed.  8)

[Slartibartfarst42]

Tim certainly uses Mules in a Les Paul in an Ozzy tribute band so they'll certainly do Metal and I believe the Black Dogs are good for Metal, though I've not tried one of those personally.

[Kiichi]

I believe the Black Dogs are good for Metal, though I've not tried one of those personally.

Me neither, but one of the Godsized (Rock / Metal with Pantera grooves IŽd say) guys uses them (the other VHIIs)and...well recently saw them live and those guys seriously rocked. At times they rocked more than Black Label Society that evening! So that is what I know about them doing metal.

[ericsabbath]

Alnicos actually do boost the mids in terms of it being the same pickup. If you had 2 of the exact same pickups, one with the ceramics and the the other with alnicos, the mid will appear boosted since its not as compressed. That doesn't go to say you can;t get a scooped sounding alnico pickup though. I just suggested the alnico since he doesn't want it to sound as compressed.  8)

depends on the pickups winding, among many other factors
the seymour duncan custom is a good example
the alnico 2 version is very middy, alnico 5 version is very scooped, the ceramic is plenty of mids
they are all the same pickup with different magnets

the painkiller is supposedly a ceramic holy diver and it's way middier, although the diver is already very middy

alnico pickups can also be more compressed than equivalent ceramics

[ericsabbath]

I believe the Black Dogs are good for Metal, though I've not tried one of those personally.

Me neither, but one of the Godsized (Rock / Metal with Pantera grooves IŽd say) guys uses them (the other VHIIs)and...well recently saw them live and those guys seriously rocked. At times they rocked more than Black Label Society that evening! So that is what I know about them doing metal.

I'm using a black dog now, also in a lp custom
it lacks for metal without a booster... quite dark and low output
but it rocks hard with my vintage maxon equalizer (frown face setting)
I might move my big magnet riff raff in just for a try, and the black dog to my broken sg

I'll post my bands recording soon (all done with the 73 lp + black dog/mule and a prs mccarty + cold sweat)

[dave_mc]

alnico pickups can also be more compressed than equivalent ceramics

that's what i thought... in my limited experience i'd have said ceramic was less compressed than alnico (when considering pickups of roughly the same output)...

[gwEm]

alnico pickups can also be more compressed than equivalent ceramics

that's what i thought... in my limited experience i'd have said ceramic was less compressed than alnico (when considering pickups of roughly the same output)...

i tend to agree, there may be other factors at work, but it certainly seems that way

[mbchepburn]

I do apologise, I meant to say a tighter bottom end, not compressed. Although I'd love to find a tight alnico pickup for metal to regain some of that organic quality. I really fancy the Aftermath, so if anyone has a pickup thats as tight, but better sounding, plesae say :)

[Transcend]

I do apologise, I meant to say a tighter bottom end, not compressed. Although I'd love to find a tight alnico pickup for metal to regain some of that organic quality. I really fancy the Aftermath, so if anyone has a pickup thats as tight, but better sounding, plesae say :)

I have a pickup thats certainly as tight & not as compressed.

better sounding though i wouldnt go that far.

Its the stock VK downtunz that came in my ibanez RGD

a5 and equally as tight as the AM

it has that modern djenty sound though which i arent  a fan of

[artypaul]

Thanks to one and all for your input. I think I might be tempted to try a Riff Raff in my mahogany Dean V, and then I can move the Miracle Man that's currently in there to my Les Paul, replacing the Dirty Fingers. I've had alnico p/ups before, with a Crawler set, and wasn't that wild about them - they were somehow just a little too polite - but Eric's description of the Riff Raff sounds spot on. I don't know quite how to describe it: I'm looking for more "air" in my distortion whilst still retaining the power...

Paul.

[Philly Q]

the seymour duncan custom is a good example
the alnico 2 version is very middy, alnico 5 version is very scooped, the ceramic is plenty of mids
they are all the same pickup with different magnets

That's a good example, it's really very interesting to see what a difference simply changing the magnet makes. 

I quite liked the Custom 5 in an Edwards I owned once, quite bright and in-your-face but it made a change from the usual JB/59 arrangement.

[oilpit]

Alnicos actually do boost the mids in terms of it being the same pickup. If you had 2 of the exact same pickups, one with the ceramics and the the other with alnicos, the mid will appear boosted since its not as compressed. That doesn't go to say you can;t get a scooped sounding alnico pickup though. I just suggested the alnico since he doesn't want it to sound as compressed.  8)

This is completely false.  For one, you're grouping all alnicos together, Alnico 2,3,4,5 and 8 all sound totally different and have different levels of midrange.

Ceramic magnets generally have plenty of mids, whereas certain alnicos (3, 5 and to some extent 4) sound quite scooped.