Amps vs comps

[MDV]

i'm mainly reacting against the posts of MDV and Crunch - their studios are clearly not a cost/space/weight effective alternative to a modeller.

Thats not for you to say on my behalf. As I said in my post; I believe its worth it, I believe its cost, space and weight effective and you are very clearly not in a position to tell me that I have spent my time and money in a fashion thats wrong for me (and indeed for my clients; I use all that equipment (and rather a bit more) in my job).  

[hellsSG]

Playing guitar is so much more than tone though.

It is and it isnt.

I personally play a heck of a lot better when im using a nice tone.

One thing you pointed out though is the dynamics and feel are also very important

+1

No one likes a shitety tone xD

[Crunch]

Playing guitar is so much more than tone though.

It is and it isnt.

I personally play a heck of a lot better when im using a nice tone.

One thing you pointed out though is the dynamics and feel are also very important

I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.

[AndyR]

It's funny how these amps v modellors threads go. It's like all of us are trying to convince everyone else that our way of doing it is the "right" or "proper" way of doing it. I didn't mean it and was trying to diffuse it, but I even suspect that my post earlier has probably got elements of that in it! :lol:

This thing is all about personal taste and what it takes to get the job done for you. It's about what you can afford and what you can practically use. Most importantly, it's about feeling confident in the noises you're making so that you can express yourself.

There's an argument that if you feel confident playing through some zitty old SS practice amp, and there's another bloke (possibly a better guitarist in your eyes) playing through his boutique valve machine with swanky speakers, but this guy feels that his "sound isn't right tonight"... then guess which guitarist will seem more accomplished and enjoyable to the punters.

On the "personal" thing. Crunch's last post, compared to my experience, is a good example of where personal taste comes in:

I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.

You don't need to explain, I suspect we all know exactly what you mean...

BUT! I'm almost the opposite to you :lol:. With the music I want to play, I can play lead on any old thing, it really doesn't bother me. That's not the problem, the problem for me is getting a nice juicy clean/crunch/overdrive rhythm tone that makes me feel "now we're rockin...  8)". That's what gets me in the mood. And, yeah, when I'm in the mood the leads come out a lot better as well.

I've never heard a solid state amp do what I want in this department, but I happily gigged with them and their approximations in the 80s and everyone was happy. I can usually get a valve amp to do this rhythm thing spot on if I'm allowed the volume (not always though, but I just put up with the compromise and play). And I also have (cheapish) modellors that do "98% there" to my satisfaction, even at well-nigh silent (headphones), and once I've got a patch to that level it is consistent and it does exactly the same thing next time I switch it on. The missing 2% is something to do with a "vibe" I cannot describe (and there is a slight annoyance over tuning with modellors sometimes - you get odd overtones that make you think your jangly guitar is out of tune, plug it in a valve amp and it sounds fine and dandy).

Personally, I was amazed to discover modelling a few years back - I'd have KILLED for these things back in the 80s :lol:. They might have further to go, but they're good enough for the job I want done right now - I actually have no desire to investigate or upgrade to next generation modelling or more expensive brands. If they conk out, then yeah, I'll be getting new ones... otherwise... the GAS I experience over amplification is for... valve amps!! :lol:

[Transcend]

It's funny how these amps v modellors threads go. It's like all of us are trying to convince everyone else that our way of doing it is the "right" or "proper" way of doing it. I didn't mean it and was trying to diffuse it, but I even suspect that my post earlier has probably got elements of that in it! :lol:

This thing is all about personal taste and what it takes to get the job done for you. It's about what you can afford and what you can practically use. Most importantly, it's about feeling confident in the noises you're making so that you can express yourself.

There's an argument that if you feel confident playing through some zitty old SS practice amp, and there's another bloke (possibly a better guitarist in your eyes) playing through his boutique valve machine with swanky speakers, but this guy feels that his "sound isn't right tonight"... then guess which guitarist will seem more accomplished and enjoyable to the punters.

On the "personal" thing. Crunch's last post, compared to my experience, is a good example of where personal taste comes in:

I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.

You don't need to explain, I suspect we all know exactly what you mean...

BUT! I'm almost the opposite to you :lol:. With the music I want to play, I can play lead on any old thing, it really doesn't bother me. That's not the problem, the problem for me is getting a nice juicy clean/crunch/overdrive rhythm tone that makes me feel "now we're rockin...  8)". That's what gets me in the mood. And, yeah, when I'm in the mood the leads come out a lot better as well.

I've never heard a solid state amp do what I want in this department, but I happily gigged with them and their approximations in the 80s and everyone was happy. I can usually get a valve amp to do this rhythm thing spot on if I'm allowed the volume (not always though, but I just put up with the compromise and play). And I also have (cheapish) modellors that do "98% there" to my satisfaction, even at well-nigh silent (headphones), and once I've got a patch to that level it is consistent and it does exactly the same thing next time I switch it on. The missing 2% is something to do with a "vibe" I cannot describe (and there is a slight annoyance over tuning with modellors sometimes - you get odd overtones that make you think your jangly guitar is out of tune, plug it in a valve amp and it sounds fine and dandy).

Personally, I was amazed to discover modelling a few years back - I'd have KILLED for these things back in the 80s :lol:. They might have further to go, but they're good enough for the job I want done right now - I actually have no desire to investigate or upgrade to next generation modelling or more expensive brands. If they conk out, then yeah, I'll be getting new ones... otherwise... the GAS I experience over amplification is for... valve amps!! :lol:

Very well said

[BigB]

Also and FWIW, miking an amp is not that difficult - it's nowhere near the pain of correctly miking a drumset or piano, and doesn't necessarily require hi-end static microphones.

Agreed. Also it's weird to me that an SM57, probably the most used guitar mic, is ignored and then at least several multiples of it's cost are spent attempting to mimic

Reminds me of an anecdote I already posted here IIRC... Big studio in Paris (early 90s), hard rock guitar player recording (LP on a cranked JCM Marshall), sound engineer insisting on trying to mike it with a complicated combination of hi-end static mikes (Neumans and whatnot) going thru hi-end tubes preamps, tube EQ etc, and the guitar player not satisfied with the tone, to the point he was starting loosing confidence (one of the worst thing that can happen in studio). Kindly suggested the sound op to let me try something (while the customer was away of course), sound op says "ok" (well, at that point he had nothing to loose), whent ahead with a good old SM57, close miked, no EQ, no nothing, and then the guitar player instant silly grin "YES THAT'S IT DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING". :mrgreen: (session saved, SupahBigB kicking off for a new adventure :lol:).

As far as I'm concerned, some of the best guitar tones I got (as a sound op myself) where with an old, half-broken Beyer M88, close miking, and eventually an additional  AKG 414 2 meters away to get the room when it sounded ok. Ok, possibly not the best guitar tones ever, but it JustWorked(tm) and usually was a no-brainer to mix.

[edit]
Oh, and about this "true thang vs mod" kind of flamewar : I DO agree that good modellers are about the best recent innovations, and do a very good job (wrt/ what we had to deal with in the 80s it's a night and day difference), and I'll take a good modeller over a shitety amp any other day. Now however close they get, they just don't have the same feel, and while no one will hear the difference in the mix whether live or recorded (well, with the good ones at least), I will still feel it when playing, and that does make a difference in the final result (ok, I'm certainly not a great guitar player so no one cares, but anyway...).  As far as I'm concerned, whatever rocks your bot and makes you sound and feel good is the right thing, period, so it's not a something vs another, it's just a something or another pro's and con's and sharing experiences / feeling about it.

Oh and yes - I'm a lucky guy, I can play my 40w tube amp at almost rehearsal volumes late at night, else I'd certainly be using a good modeller instead for home practice - been playing unplugged for years when living in a flat in Paris in the 80s and early 90s, and I swear I would have killed for a modeller by then, even a very under-average one by today's standards 8)

My 2 cents, really.
[/edit]

[MDV]

It's funny how these amps v modellors threads go. It's like all of us are trying to convince everyone else that our way of doing it is the "right" or "proper" way of doing it. I didn't mean it and was trying to diffuse it, but I even suspect that my post earlier has probably got elements of that in it! :lol:

This thing is all about personal taste and what it takes to get the job done for you. It's about what you can afford and what you can practically use. Most importantly, it's about feeling confident in the noises you're making so that you can express yourself.

There's an argument that if you feel confident playing through some zitty old SS practice amp, and there's another bloke (possibly a better guitarist in your eyes) playing through his boutique valve machine with swanky speakers, but this guy feels that his "sound isn't right tonight"... then guess which guitarist will seem more accomplished and enjoyable to the punters.

On the "personal" thing. Crunch's last post, compared to my experience, is a good example of where personal taste comes in:

I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.

You don't need to explain, I suspect we all know exactly what you mean...

BUT! I'm almost the opposite to you :lol:. With the music I want to play, I can play lead on any old thing, it really doesn't bother me. That's not the problem, the problem for me is getting a nice juicy clean/crunch/overdrive rhythm tone that makes me feel "now we're rockin...  8)". That's what gets me in the mood. And, yeah, when I'm in the mood the leads come out a lot better as well.

I've never heard a solid state amp do what I want in this department, but I happily gigged with them and their approximations in the 80s and everyone was happy. I can usually get a valve amp to do this rhythm thing spot on if I'm allowed the volume (not always though, but I just put up with the compromise and play). And I also have (cheapish) modellors that do "98% there" to my satisfaction, even at well-nigh silent (headphones), and once I've got a patch to that level it is consistent and it does exactly the same thing next time I switch it on. The missing 2% is something to do with a "vibe" I cannot describe (and there is a slight annoyance over tuning with modellors sometimes - you get odd overtones that make you think your jangly guitar is out of tune, plug it in a valve amp and it sounds fine and dandy).

Personally, I was amazed to discover modelling a few years back - I'd have KILLED for these things back in the 80s :lol:. They might have further to go, but they're good enough for the job I want done right now - I actually have no desire to investigate or upgrade to next generation modelling or more expensive brands. If they conk out, then yeah, I'll be getting new ones... otherwise... the GAS I experience over amplification is for... valve amps!! :lol:

True, each to their own, personal preference, suitability for task, practicality and all that. Absolutely. No question. I'm never going to tell anyone not to use modellers or that good sounds cant be had with them, or its the wrong thing for them to do.

But no one has ever come to record with me and said "Marshall, Engl and VHT amps and Bogner and Orange cabs....each to their own, but I was hoping to get that Line 6 sound, dont you have a pod?"

[Transcend]

It's funny how these amps v modellors threads go. It's like all of us are trying to convince everyone else that our way of doing it is the "right" or "proper" way of doing it. I didn't mean it and was trying to diffuse it, but I even suspect that my post earlier has probably got elements of that in it! :lol:

This thing is all about personal taste and what it takes to get the job done for you. It's about what you can afford and what you can practically use. Most importantly, it's about feeling confident in the noises you're making so that you can express yourself.

There's an argument that if you feel confident playing through some zitty old SS practice amp, and there's another bloke (possibly a better guitarist in your eyes) playing through his boutique valve machine with swanky speakers, but this guy feels that his "sound isn't right tonight"... then guess which guitarist will seem more accomplished and enjoyable to the punters.

On the "personal" thing. Crunch's last post, compared to my experience, is a good example of where personal taste comes in:

I literally find it impossible to do lead work using a solid state amp or a modeler. When the tubes are hot, I can feel the notes I need to play marching out of the speakers and then squeeze them out when the time is right. It's a difficult sensation to explain.

You don't need to explain, I suspect we all know exactly what you mean...

BUT! I'm almost the opposite to you :lol:. With the music I want to play, I can play lead on any old thing, it really doesn't bother me. That's not the problem, the problem for me is getting a nice juicy clean/crunch/overdrive rhythm tone that makes me feel "now we're rockin...  8)". That's what gets me in the mood. And, yeah, when I'm in the mood the leads come out a lot better as well.

I've never heard a solid state amp do what I want in this department, but I happily gigged with them and their approximations in the 80s and everyone was happy. I can usually get a valve amp to do this rhythm thing spot on if I'm allowed the volume (not always though, but I just put up with the compromise and play). And I also have (cheapish) modellors that do "98% there" to my satisfaction, even at well-nigh silent (headphones), and once I've got a patch to that level it is consistent and it does exactly the same thing next time I switch it on. The missing 2% is something to do with a "vibe" I cannot describe (and there is a slight annoyance over tuning with modellors sometimes - you get odd overtones that make you think your jangly guitar is out of tune, plug it in a valve amp and it sounds fine and dandy).

Personally, I was amazed to discover modelling a few years back - I'd have KILLED for these things back in the 80s :lol:. They might have further to go, but they're good enough for the job I want done right now - I actually have no desire to investigate or upgrade to next generation modelling or more expensive brands. If they conk out, then yeah, I'll be getting new ones... otherwise... the GAS I experience over amplification is for... valve amps!! :lol:

True, each to their own, personal preference, suitability for task, practicality and all that. Absolutely. No question. I'm never going to tell anyone not to use modellers or that good sounds cant be had with them, or its the wrong thing for them to do.

But no one has ever come to record with me and said "Marshall, Engl and VHT amps and Bogner and Orange cabs....each to their own, but I was hoping to get that Line 6 sound, dont you have a pod?"

Ha it would be so funny if one of your future clients does that.....

[MDV]

Yes. Yes it would.

[Philly Q]

It's funny how these threads get so heated - I don't think anyone has said they actually prefer modellers to real amps, just that there are times when modellers may be more practical or convenient.

Just my tuppence ha'penny.  Carry on.

[Dmoney]

my guitars on my old bands demo were all POD.
for the 7" we did, I did scratch tracks with a pod and used a laney GH100TI to overdub.

[MDV]

It's funny how these threads get so heated - I don't think anyone has said they actually prefer modellers to real amps, just that there are times when modellers may be more practical or convenient.

Just my tuppence ha'penny.  Carry on.

Some people do, and get very good results with them.

[asianaxeman]

If space/weight/noise is a problem preventing one from cranking a valve amp for recording, who has got round that by using solely a valve preamp like bogner fish /CAE 3+ / engl e530 in to an interface eg apogee duet etc ...surely the latter compact rack gear has better tone than modelers and gives you the best of both worlds (tone and compactness)? does anyone here record directly with a rack valve preamp or the lineout from their valve combo/head? would be good to hear some samples or good results achieved this way. Cheers.

[Transcend]

http://soundcloud.com/wartime-novelty/slo

That is using my SLO with a palmer PDI 03

which replaces the speaker and emulates a cab

i didnt like it at all and sent it back the next day.

I will happilly use an attenuator though

[Crunch]

http://soundcloud.com/wartime-novelty/slo

That is using my SLO with a palmer PDI 03

which replaces the speaker and emulates a cab

i didnt like it at all and sent it back the next day.

I will happilly use an attenuator though

If I could find a good speaker emulator, I would be happyish. Just take the speaker out and drive it into a box of some sort that goes to headphones or the computer.
It would have to emulate, well. Some of the Blackstar demos, I've heard, seem to have pretty decent ones.