Tone-loss problems. Buffer or Gigrig/G-Lab type switching system?

[breadfan]

Familiar problem here. I'm using five true-bypass pedals plus a three-switch true-bypass looper (so that's effectively eight tb pedals?) between my guitar & amp. In the amp's effects-loop I have two more true-bypass pedals & a tb looper. This is all connected with four ten foot leads.

The chain is: MXR MC-401-> BYOC wah -> MJM Lodon Fuzz -> HBE Germania -> Sola Sound Tonebender -> 3 switch TB Looper, with Boss CS2, Phase 90 & Boss Tuner -> Amp

The loop is: single switch TB Looper, with an MXR Eq & Boss DD3 (solo boost)-> Deluxe Memory Man -> Hardwire Reverb.

I was thinking about a buffer, perhaps the switchable Lehle Sunday Driver, as I'd need to be able to turn it off when using the fuzz pedals & treble booster. I got the MXR MC-401 to use as a line-driver but, while it adds some treble & clarity, it doesn't restore that 'punchiness'.

I'm looking at a GigRig Remote Loopy-2 for the effects loop. This way I can mount the delays, reverb & eq on a separate pedal board & place it on the amp or very close to it. This would take about 18 foot of cable out of my signal, but it would mean I'd need another board & I'd really like to keep everything on one, if possible.

The Remote Loopy-2 & Sunday Driver are going to cost about €350. Is this the right way to go? Or should I be looking at a G-Lab switching system or similar? I hadn't considered a complex switching system, as I'm not looking to set presets - tap dancing isn't an issue - I just want to have all my favourite pedals on my board at the same time.

I appreciate any advice.

Edit: I've included a picture of my board - it's not fully connected & is missing a tb looper for the dd3 & eq. There's also a BYOC pedal on there instead of the HBE Germania.

[BigB]

I'm no expert, but from what I know (been a sound op for a few years), just starting with a single buffer AFTER your germanium stuff might already make a huge difference. wrt/ what you have in your FX loop, I dont think another buffer would help much - FWIW, just putting a very short, good quality cable in the loop is already enough to eat tone and punch (specially if it's a series loop), and it has nothing to do with impedance, it's just about how a loop works.

I of course assume you're using top quality cable and have a good power supply (

Oh, and yes: a buffer - even a good one - is a pretty simple circuit, so if you know how to solder you should possibly consider a decent kit.

My 2 cents..

[Telerocker]

Linebuffer should help.

[Crunch]

A simple buffer would definitely help. If you use several pedals in conjunction with each other (I only use delay with reverb, for example), you could consider placing them in a single loop/line selector to keep them off the chain until needed.
You may also want to consider a higher output pickup.

[hunter]

I would go with the Sunday Driver. I use a GLab switcher but its buffer is just Ok. A bit bright actually. Therefore I leave the GLab buffer off and use a Radial PB-1 for buffer duties. I only heard great things about the Lehle. Also the only buffer I know that you can switch off the buffer side. Later on you could still get a switcher if for example you'd decide to rack your pedals.

[juansolo]

Aren't the two Boss pedals buffered?

[Alex]

Try putting the Boss CS-2 - no idea what that is btw - in the first place of the signal chain and see if it makes a difference.

[shobet]

Aren't the two Boss pedals buffered?

Yeah, the delay and the compressor (and all boss pedals unless I'm mistaken) should have buffers in them.

As Alex said, have you tried putting one of the boss pedals before the 3 switch looper? I'd put it after the wah and fuzzes in the chain.

[tomjackson]

There's a good buffer in the Hardwire if it is not set in TB, you could try that and put it at the end of the chain?

[breadfan]

Cheers for all the input & sorry I haven't chipped in again sooner.

For now, I should probably address the guitar to amp signal & the effects loop signal separately. I've used the loop, & consequently the four pedals in it, very little, as it completely kills an already dead guitar tone. For the most part, the loop has been switched out of the circuit completely (I'll get to that shortly).

For the guitar to amp signal, a buffer seems like the best way to go. I'm using quality cable & Voodoo Labs power supplies, so the issue isn't there. It's obviously the eight tb switches that's doing the damage.

I'm going to attempt to build this buffer from the byoc forum:
http://www.buildyourownclone.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=18652&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
I've built a few kits before but perfboard is new to me, so it may be a challenge. I'm going to make it switchable too.

If you use several pedals in conjunction with each other (I only use delay with reverb, for example), you could consider placing them in a single loop/line selector to keep them off the chain until needed.
You may also want to consider a higher output pickup.

I could put the three germanium pedals in a loop - that would take two tb pedals out of the signal when I'm bypassing the fuzz pedals & treble-booster, but add one when I'm not. I guess the MC-401 doesn't need to be there at all, since it's not doing its intended job. I wouldn't consider changing my mules though!

Hunter, how is your GLab switcher for tone-loss, without a buffer? If it has eight switches, does that mean your signal is essentially going through eight true-bypass pedals? If this is the case then I can rule that out. Likewise, I've heard only good things about Lehle. Ultimately, I think I'll get the Sunday Driver, but I'll give the byoc buffer a chance first.

Regarding the Boss pedals; both are buffered, but they're in tb loops as their buffers interfere with the germanium pedals. This way I can take them out of the chain when they're not in use. I guess I could try the compressor first in the chain (in a tb loop) but I think I'm going to go for a dedicated buffer instead.

[breadfan]

This is my effects loop:
http://metroamp.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78&products_id=499
Forum here:
http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=22189

I had a tech install it in my plexi clone. It's switchable, so it can be taken completely out of the circuit.

FWIW, just putting a very short, good quality cable in the loop is already enough to eat tone and punch (specially if it's a series loop), and it has nothing to do with impedance, it's just about how a loop works.

I tried this today & I was pretty shocked by the results. There's a clear loss of treble & punch. I'd been blaming the loop issue on just the cable runs but it's obvious the loop isn't as transparent as it's claimed to be. I should stress that it's nowhere near as bad as with 20+ foot of cable, but it's still noticeable, not to mention disappointing!

I would still like to use it occasionally though. & I'll do what I can to make it more usable. Might a buffer in here make a difference?

There's a good buffer in the Hardwire if it is not set in TB, you could try that and put it at the end of the chain?

I didn't know that. It''ll be at the end of the chain anyway, so I'll try it tomorrow.

Has anyone tried the Gigrig Remote Loopy-2?
http://www.thegigrig.com/acatalog/SWS_Remote_Loopy-2.html
It would shorten the cable run significantly.