Yet another SG question

[steveo]

Sorry forum newbie alert, and another variation of the same question asked before, I know because I have read as many of the threads as I can find. I am basing my experience on a Yamaha SG2000 that I upgraded the bridge pup to a duncan custom custom, a Vintage V100 with stock Wilkinons, and a 2008 SG standard. The latter two guitars I have used with an Epiphone Blues Custom 30, sadly the Yamaha had to go to finance the SG so cannot directly compare it through the Epi amp. What I do know is that the SG sounds pretty ragged through the Epi, it's too shrill, and far too much "white noise" on both pups, to the point where I prefer the sound of the Vintage. Rolling off the volume doesn't cure the problem, but before I ditch the SG, a nice chap at GAK suggested I try some BKPs in it. Tim's suggestion was a set of Mules, but whilst I definitely want a less piercing top end, I don't want it too middy. I'm torn between the Riff Raff and Mules, given half the reason for getting a SG was to get *that* aussie rockers sound. I suspect part of the problem is the Epi, it's perhaps a bit shouty which doesn't help.

I play a mix of classic rock, so think mainly AC/DC, Lizzy, Lynyrd, Free etc so need some versatility. My personal preference is around half gain setting on the preamp, and running it in class AB to get that growl and bit. I'm more a rhythm player, so need a nice rich harmonic sound.

Thanks for your help!

[BigB]

Hi

First point: the SG (the real one I mean) and the Yamaha SG have very few in common (not that the Yam is a bad guitar, just a very different sounding one).

I don't know which pups you have on the Standard, but I strongly suggest you first A/B it with the Vintage on a couple different amps to make sure what come from the amp and what come from the guitar - perhaps the problem is with the amp.

wrt/ pickups, I don't have first hand experience with the Mule bridge but from clips etc and first hand experience with a RR bridge in my own SG, I can tell you the RR bridge is really on the bright side. Fine for darker SG's, but if yours is already bright and you want to tame the highs, it might not be the best choice.

[steveo]

Thanks for the advice. I knew the Yam and the SG (and the Vintage) are all very different, and it doesn't help that the Yamaha experience was with a transistor Marshall and a Laney VC15. The harshness may indeed be partly down to the amp, but the lack of definition isn't, since the supposedly much cheaper Wilkinson pups have much clearer harmonics and tone, whatever the pup volume or amp settings are used. They are obviously not as hot as the Gibsons, but roll the vol back on the SG and it doesn't really get any better, the sound is still mushy in that it's difficult to pick out the individual string notes.

[Philly Q]

Does the Gibson still have the stock 498T/490R pickups?  You said it sounds "harsh", "ragged", "shrill", "mushy".... that sounds like the 498T to me.  Even though it's Gibson's standard pickup for an SG, I don't think it suits the guitar, it's too hot and (IMO) sounds "messy".  Stupid description, but it's what I always think. 

You'd be better off with a lower output pickup, as you've probably read in other SG threads.  If you think the Riff Raff might sound a bit too dry and bright, Tim's recommendation of the Mule sounds about right to me.  I don't have a Mule pickup myself, but I don't think there's any reason to suppose it'll be too middy.

I have a Riff Raff in my one-pickup SG-X.  If I ever get round to replacing the pickups in my Tokai SG, it'll be a Riff Raff bridge and Mule neck.  Or, possibly, a Mule set with an Alnico V bridge.

[Telerocker]

Mules or RiffRaffs. I think Mules are more allround of these two, where the RR's are def. AC/DC.

[explorer76]

Does the Gibson still have the stock 498T/490R pickups?  You said it sounds "harsh", "ragged", "shrill", "mushy".... that sounds like the 498T to me.  Even though it's Gibson's standard pickup for an SG, I don't think it suits the guitar, it's too hot and (IMO) sounds "messy".  Stupid description, but it's what I always think. 

This actually fits my experience with the 498 in SGs. I never understood why don't they use the 490T (which they use in the Gibson SG special) also in the SG Standard models, cause the 490T sounds really good in my opinion and fits an SG quite good at least better than the 498  :).

Regarding BKPs it depends on what you want as the others said before. I'd go for RiffRaff for that "Aussie"-Tone.

[Philly Q]

Does the Gibson still have the stock 498T/490R pickups?  You said it sounds "harsh", "ragged", "shrill", "mushy".... that sounds like the 498T to me.  Even though it's Gibson's standard pickup for an SG, I don't think it suits the guitar, it's too hot and (IMO) sounds "messy".  Stupid description, but it's what I always think. 

This actually fits my experience with the 498 in SGs. I never understood why don't they use the 490T (which they use in the Gibson SG special) also in the SG Standard models, cause the 490T sounds really good in my opinion and fits an SG quite good at least better than the 498  :).

Yeah, I think the 490T sounds a bit thin, but still better in an SG than the 498T.

It was one of the many pickups which spent time in my SG-X - 500T, 490T, Joe Barden Two/Tone, DiMarzio MegaDrive, DiMarzio Fred, BKP Riff Raff!  :D

[steveo]

So what difference / change could I expect going from the 498 to the RR?

And what about a black dog in the neck? I rarely use the neck, but when I do, it's usually clean channel blues.

[Philly Q]

With the Riff Raff bridge you'll find a lot more clarity and not a trace of mud.  It's not as hot as the 498T, not so middy, but it can still rock in an old-school sort of way.  It's the obvious thing to say, but listen to AC/DC - it really does give that sound!

I haven't heard of anyone using the Black Dog neck with the Riff Raff bridge.... I'm not personally familiar with the BD neck so I don't know if it would work or not.  For clean blues, a good - and popular - choice for the neck position would be the Stormy Monday.

[steveo]

With the Riff Raff bridge you'll find a lot more clarity and not a trace of mud.  It's not as hot as the 498T, not so middy, but it can still rock in an old-school sort of way.  It's the obvious thing to say, but listen to AC/DC - it really does give that sound!

I haven't heard of anyone using the Black Dog neck with the Riff Raff bridge.... I'm not personally familiar with the BD neck so I don't know if it would work or not.  For clean blues, a good - and popular - choice for the neck position would be the Stormy Monday.

I've listened to all the Mules / RR sound clips in SGs that I can find on youtube, and you're right, the RR is eerily like *that*sound. To be honest, I am coming to the conclusion that I want some mules in a Les Paul (well a copy anyway), and fire up some RRs in the SG. Mind you, there is a big difference between Angus's early sound of circa 1975-77 to the mid 80s onwards. I know the studio production made it all sond a lot bigger, but generally I think his tone has become fatter; te earlier sond was quite thin, not weedy, but would have probably sounded pretty lame at low volumes. I know that the epi amp generally is well thought of, but suspect its a bit too thin to really compliment the SG. OK, I think I'm going to go with a RR for the bride after all, though Tim recommended a Mule. If needs be, the amp will have to be changed. Just need to decide what to put in the neck now!

[darkbluemurder]

If you go for a Riff Raff on the bridge then go for the matching Riff Raff neck. Otherwise if you go from a bright bridge pickup to a too warm neck pickup you may find the tone to be lost in the band mix - unless you change your amp's tone settings.

Cheers Stephan

[BigB]

While we're at it : I don't know if Gibson still puts 300K pots on SGs, but if yes you definitly want to replace them with 500K ones - make a hell of a difference wrt/ high ends.

[steveo]

This is confusing - DV247 have got an uncovered riff raff at £65 which is a bargain, but it states "suitable for both bridge or neck". Surely BS or is there an *universal* riif raff??

linky: http://www.dv247.com/guitars/bare-knuckle-pickups-riff-raff--34724

[Philly Q]

This is confusing - DV247 have got an uncovered riff raff at £65 which is a bargain, but it states "suitable for both bridge or neck". Surely BS or is there an *universal* riif raff??

linky: http://www.dv247.com/guitars/bare-knuckle-pickups-riff-raff--34724

No, there's no "universal" Riff Raff (or any other BK model).  It must be either a bridge or neck model, and it'll be marked on the box.  I'd call DV247 to check.

Good price!

[ericsabbath]

guess a neck riff raff on the bridge would sound more like an alnico 5 bridge mule
maybe they have both available